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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 15, 2008 11:59 PM |
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That's true, but graphics are the only basis we have (minor as it is), and judging by graphics, they're different.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 16, 2008 12:18 AM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 00:21, 16 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
Why not err on the side that makes sense based on what we know?
The side of caution is neither side. Despite the debate I just put you through, I'm erring there. Safe and affordable!
Graphics are really a very, very poor basis for arguments. I could use them to make the assumption that all Blade Dancers have white hair, which is ridiculous.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 16, 2008 06:32 AM |
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Okay, now that demons are unofficially uncertain (the term 'demonic' might refer to a particular type of magic necessary for inferno's survival in the world, much like the term 'undead' does for the Necropolis) we can get back to the main discussion. I think the one thing we can all agree on here is the fact that the Dwarven lineup, as of HoF, and not really improved in TotE, was made on the fly and with a lack of forethough, resulting in a crude and ill-fitting town.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 16, 2008 07:20 AM |
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Quote:
Okay, now that demons are unofficially uncertain (the term 'demonic' might refer to a particular type of magic necessary for inferno's survival in the world, much like the term 'undead' does for the Necropolis) we can get back to the main discussion. I think the one thing we can all agree on here is the fact that the Dwarven lineup, as of HoF, and not really improved in TotE, was made on the fly and with a lack of forethough, resulting in a crude and ill-fitting town.
No, that is a wrong conclusion. I still hold my point based on the interviews with Fabrice (although I haven't bothered to dig them out yet to proove it!) that the line-up was not made on the fly. It was made that way as a fully concious choice to have a complete mone-racic town because they felt that fitted the lore of the Dwarves.
What we can agree on is that the line-up - no matter why it was made like it is - isn't particular succesfull, because it is too much of the good. More specifically, while I personally don't care too much about the exact numbers - there can be 6 Dwarven units for all I care, if they are well conceived - some of the units failed at the latter, particularly the Thane was a bad concept imo.
The conclusion for me is, that the most important thing when making the line-up is not the exact number of "racial" creatures which occur, but that the line-up is balanced to the lore of the faction in a way which secures both the sufficient thematic element as well as an appropriate race domination depending on the characteristics of the main race - but doing so without bending logic to make things fit to either parameter.
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What will happen now?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 16, 2008 09:53 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 09:54, 16 Jul 2008.
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My apologies for that mistake, it just seemed like they'd done it on the fly because it seemed so disjointed.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 16, 2008 02:01 PM |
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I agree with alc 
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a5ado
Tavern Dweller
Master of Logic
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posted July 21, 2008 03:21 AM |
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Haven't posted in a while. Alc, you made a good point earlier that it doesn't matter whether you consider inferno a race or a theme. theme-fans like inferno due to the fact that we believe it isn't race based, and race-fans like inferno due to the fact that they believe it is race based.
I think the major difference is what we consider a race. I consider race to mean species (officially lions are different species than tigers) and you consider it to mean family (as in kingdam, phylum, genus, family etc. . (They are part of the feline family.
So my analogy is this, let me know if you agree:
Demon is like saying feline (class/family)
Imp is like saying lion (race/species)
Also, alc it doesn't matter what they said in interviews. Its not like they are gonna say "Well, we basically put no effort into HoF and made it up on the fly. We were really lazy, and I hope I don't get fired for admitting this." No, obviously they are going to say they put lots of time and effort into the game they were hired to put time and effort into. (That doesn't mean they did)
P.s. I don't litterally mean time and effort, I mean serious thought, consideration, things like that.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted July 21, 2008 05:45 AM |
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Edited by Daystar at 05:47, 21 Jul 2008.
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I think you have a point.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 21, 2008 06:49 AM |
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Quote:
Haven't posted in a while. Alc, you made a good point earlier that it doesn't matter whether you consider inferno a race or a theme. theme-fans like inferno due to the fact that we believe it isn't race based, and race-fans like inferno due to the fact that they believe it is race based.
I think the major difference is what we consider a race. I consider race to mean species (officially lions are different species than tigers) and you consider it to mean family (as in kingdam, phylum, genus, family etc. . (They are part of the feline family.
So my analogy is this, let me know if you agree:
Demon is like saying feline (class/family)
Imp is like saying lion (race/species)
Yes, this is exactly what I mean! This is why I made the thread on Phylogenetics also, because I think the simple division into "race" and "not race" is too simplistic. I guess the word "family" is better, really, than "class" as I used, but the point is the same. Obviously, one can elaborate this thought to any level - say:
Phylum = Demonia
Families = Demons, Devils, Infernal Beasts
Speciae = Imps [Demon], Grunt [Demon], Cerberus [Infernal Beast], Succubi [Demon], Hell Horse [Infernal Beast], Pit Spawn [Demon], Devil [Devil].
Just to do an example; the point being that a pure race-based town [Speciae level] becomes too specialized for some of us, who prefer theme-based [i.e. Phylum or Family level], whereas others have the other view.
Quote:
Also, alc it doesn't matter what they said in interviews. Its not like they are gonna say "Well, we basically put no effort into HoF and made it up on the fly. We were really lazy, and I hope I don't get fired for admitting this." No, obviously they are going to say they put lots of time and effort into the game they were hired to put time and effort into. (That doesn't mean they did)
P.s. I don't litterally mean time and effort, I mean serious thought, consideration, things like that.
Obviously, we can't prove what they thought. It might be a simple lie to do the cover up, all I can say, it's sufficiently believable to deceive me. Like I said, they are so many obvious picks at hand that I refuse to believe they came to this end because they couldn't come up with alternatives. Obviously, that's just my belief.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 22, 2008 04:01 PM |
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Quote:
Also, alc it doesn't matter what they said in interviews. Its not like they are gonna say "Well, we basically put no effort into HoF and made it up on the fly. We were really lazy, and I hope I don't get fired for admitting this." No, obviously they are going to say they put lots of time and effort into the game they were hired to put time and effort into. (That doesn't mean they did)
Well to be honest it's they're game and they made claims about it. If you want to pick on them, you need to back it up with something.
Also it still amazes me that you consider theme-based without solid background harder than race-based. Were my posts completely useless? I already said that (with bolded capitals) once you have units in the lineup that are part of the town's culture, you'll have to come up with something elaborate.
Oh, and Nival did have a bit of "serious thought" since they managed to make up the possible reason that dwarves are not very accepting for outsiders. It's much better than putting in random mythological creatures that you can find anywhere (don't tell me it's hard to find a "harpy" for example), and not even need to elaborate on it since "people will know how it is anyway". Yeah, the creature maybe, but the town not.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted July 25, 2008 03:50 AM |
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Edited by Daystar at 04:25, 25 Jul 2008.
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I have an idea that could satisfy both parties, observe: Races AND Theme.
Here's how it works: The player selects a city (in this case Sylvan) and can choose between two creatures on four tiers. (Different tiers for every city) both of which would share dwelling and population. While some are mandatory (Pixie, Unicorn, and Dragon) the player can either play Race, Theme, or a combination.
This way Race players can have a total of four (5 including pixie) race creatures to play with, and theme people can ignore the main creatures and play as everything else in the forest. And of course people like me can play with a mix of them.
By having shared dwelling and growth it reduces the issue caused by having utterly separate dwellings in Heroes IV. Also, to deal with the problem of having 11 units and only 7 slots, there are two possibilities:
8 or 9 slots, as the games grow bigger, or a skill (Rallying) that adds an extra slot for every skill level (eg, if you have 7 slots and advanced rallying, you get 9 slots total)
I have several others made, if anyone is interested.
This is not a final, just a rough idea, please critique the idea not the individual names and things.
I would appreciate if no one makes a mass proposal with this method as I am planning to do so. Consider this (C)Copywrite Daystar Thorson.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 25, 2008 06:07 AM |
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Good idea with the alternate creatures, but not so much with the Rallying skill, it's just too over the top.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 25, 2008 07:06 AM |
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Personally, while I think the idea of alternative creatures can sometimes be good, in reality, I think it will be difficult to incorporate in a good way. Heroes 4 showed us that, in reality, you will end up choosing the same option 9 / 10 cases because of the abilities rather than the thematic. Also, if we stick to alternative upgrades - which I think is a good idea - this will be a nightmare to balance, because it would require not 2, but 4 (!) balanced creatures at some tiers!
Nice presentation though, btw. And yes, Rally = imba, but the idea is good, maybe make it depend on town level.
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What will happen now?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 25, 2008 01:17 PM |
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Or you could drop the alternate upgrade for those tiers that have 2 creatures, and it isn't so bad, I mean, sure, a casual player will probably choose the same creature every time, but a pro will probably choose whichever is going to be most appropriate for the situation that arises, so both will get used quite well.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted July 25, 2008 05:01 PM |
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Dropping alts might be good.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 25, 2008 05:10 PM |
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Quote:
because it would require not 2, but 4 (!) balanced creatures at some tiers!
Not trying to sound smart or anything, but that's exactly what you did in your Heroes VI presentation, isn't it?
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted July 25, 2008 05:46 PM |
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He only balanced 4 alts for one creature, this is 4 alts for 2 creatures total. It would only be 1 more creature to balance, times 7 per faction.
Good spot Ceph.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 25, 2008 09:20 PM |
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Becomes to much creatures.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 27, 2008 11:33 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
because it would require not 2, but 4 (!) balanced creatures at some tiers!
Not trying to sound smart or anything, but that's exactly what you did in your Heroes VI presentation, isn't it?
Yes, that was the Heroes 4 model - which is a step back compared to TOTE, because it locks you in your choice (or the opponents!  ) once the dwelling is build. Good thing about Alternates are at least you can redicide midgame.
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What will happen now?
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted July 27, 2008 12:20 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 12:20, 27 Jul 2008.
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I prefer something like the creatures system in H4, but with upgrades, and no alts. Nival can't balance the alts. One of them is always better in stats or abilities (or both), and most of the new/old alts are useless, players keep using one of them - the better one. With H4 building system you will need to think about your development strategy. Also this reupgading for alts, it should be removed imo.
About the question. I prefer themes (but not for all towns).
Why? Heroes of Might and Magic is not Warcraft! In Warcraft the player have races, when you start the game, you need to choose one. They are called - Night Elf, Orc, Human, etc. In Heroes we have towns, when you start the game you need to choose one. This was one of the unique things about HoMM (till the 5th). They are called - Stronghold, Rampart, Castle, etc...
Here is my opinion:
Castle - humans, angels and griffins
Inferno - demonic creatures only (Devils, demons, cerberi)
Necropolis - town of the deads (dead humans or mages, clone of Haven, with opposite types of hero classes, magic and creatures - Knigh ---> Death Knight, Priest ---> Shadow Priest/Necromancer)
Rampart - forest creatures - elfs, dwarfs, centaurs, spirits, druids, etc...
Dungeon - cave creatures - evil dragons, troglodytes, beholders, etc...
Stronghold - orcs, goblins, ogres, cyclops, behemoth's
Swamp - swamp creatures - lizards, gnolls, wyverns.
Academy/Tower - mages, summoned creatures, elementals...
So yes I want H3 like towns. I'll be very very happy if Ubival quit with the lore and the story of H5 and continue with H3 and why not H4?
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