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blitzkrieg777
Tavern Dweller
Mmmm! Love that monkey sweat!
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posted August 12, 2008 05:13 PM |
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The point I was trying to get to was that both aspects have their strengths and weaknesses. And that the benefit of having both sides of the coin is that you can pick your favorite. Wizards can have magical creatures running around their towns and dwarves can be xenophobic of non-dwarves. I would have liked to see a little more uniqueness in one or two of the Fortress creatures, and a little less with the Academy, and voicing that so in HOMM6 has those considerations by the creators is the best you can hope for. Otherwise, there are some truly amazing things happening with people moddifying the game including the conflux stuff. I you are desperate to see some alterations, talk with someone capable of changing the looks of one or the other and enjoy.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 12, 2008 05:17 PM |
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The game can have themes without races, but not races without themes.
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Eccentric Opinion
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 12, 2008 08:16 PM |
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Quote:
Academy works because it is more than the sum of its parts. It is a perfect representation of the Wizards - changed Goblins, animated constructs, mages themselves, summoned things, and Collossi. None of these elements could really work independently. I mean, we already have Stronghold, we don't need a town full of slightly different Stronghold creatures. We only need one Gremlin. As for the constructs, I wasn't aware that Forge became a popular idea all of a sudden.  I'd like to see a Forge town, but until we do, constructs need to stay with the mages. The mages - no one wants to see a town with creatures like "Demi-Mage" or "Giant Mutated Mage". The Genies work well with the desert theme. Rakshasas are an interesting new creature, and represent the mages' magic side, as opposed to their animating construct side. And a town full of Collossi just wouldn't work.
Again: Academy works for you. That's your oppinion. Obviously, not everybody share that oppinion.
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What will happen now?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 13, 2008 12:56 AM |
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Academy was pretty much the same in H2 and H3, and no one was complaining.
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Eccentric Opinion
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 13, 2008 08:27 AM |
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True, but the overall framework in Heroes 2 and 3 was different: Those game hat not fully and succesfully incorporated the systematics that Heroes 5 works with. I mean, compared to Heroes 3 Dungeon, for instance, Heroes 3 Academy had a pretty steam-lined line-up!
And I can live with Academy, in the end, when it comes down to gameplay, it doesn't matter whether the description says the unit is animated, mechanical or summoned from the outer planes. None-the-less, it still stands as one of the less well conceived factions in my oppinion.
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What will happen now?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 13, 2008 10:43 AM |
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Actually, the academy has always seemed a bit forced to me, I mean, come on, they have slaves but not novices, genies at high level but not at level?
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yann
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 14, 2008 05:47 PM |
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Race v.s. Theme
I know most of you are for race-based factions but I loved the Heroes III format for its factions.
I have put some thought into this and the “race” of each faction in Heroes III is represented by one-two characters and the heroes.
If you really look at it there were dominant races (1-2) in every faction:
Rep= Represented by …
Castle: Humans-Rep: All units and Heroes
Rampart: Elves/Dwarves-Rep: Wood Elves/Pegasi/Dwarves and Heroes
Tower: Wizards/Genies-Rep: Wizards/Genies and Heroes
Inferno: Demons- Rep: All units and Heroes
Dungeon: Troglodytes and Minotaurs- Rep: Trogs/Mins and Heroes
Fortress: Gnolls/Lizardmen- Rep: Gnolls/lizardmen and Heroes
Necro: Undead – Rep: All units and heroes
Conflux: elementals – Rep: All units and heroes
Catch my drift?
An analogy to how these factions operate is kind of like New York City with Little Italy and China Town. Let’s say the Italians are the Elves and the Chinese are the Dwarves. Both groups stay within there own dwellings (Little Italy/China Town) because of the racial and cultural ties. However, the well-to-do class consists of both groups and they have a great relationship with each other (like the Heroes). In a time of crisis in New York the more influential class will draw back to its roots (Little Italy/China Town) to gain recruits to get through the crisis. In addition to fighting with each other, both groups are forced to interact and become somewhat allies because they live in the same city (like the dwarves and elves of Heroes III both lived in the Rampart but with separate dwellings).
So if any of you understood that I hope I semi-justified the format of Heroes III factions. Also you will notice what ties the faction together is the influential class or the heroes. In a game titled Heroes III I sure hope the heroes are the biggest reps of their faction (and their faction’s race)!
It was also cool how the Heroes could draw back to their environment and recruit not only their kinfolk, but creatures that dwelled nearby (with the same theme) as well.
Ex: Rampart Ranger: recruits Elves but also gains aid from the dendroids the unicorns etc. and it’s the same with every other faction. This is where theme comes into play.
If you hate the concept of beasts and creatures go play Medieval Total War or Age of Empires, but fantasy means immersing yourself in a land that somewhat defies the world we live in with phenomenon like magic and large creatures like dragons, medusas, etc.
Also the factions should not all consist of creatures that are all the same race- that’s like the real world!
I say Heroes VI builds off the Heroes III model for factions and just expands the game play, graphics, music, etc.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted August 14, 2008 05:52 PM |
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Quote:
An analogy to how these factions operate is kind of like New York City with Little Italy and China Town. Let’s say the Italians are the Elves and the Chinese are the Dwarves. Both groups stay within there own dwellings (Little Italy/China Town) because of the racial and cultural ties. However, the well-to-do class consists of both groups and they have a great relationship with each other (like the Heroes). In a time of crisis in New York the more influential class will draw back to its roots (Little Italy/China Town) to gain recruits to get through the crisis. In addition to fighting with each other, both groups are forced to interact and become somewhat allies because they live in the same city (like the dwarves and elves of Heroes III both lived in the Rampart but with separate dwellings).
Yes, but there is an actual Italy and China countries ("towns")
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted August 14, 2008 06:23 PM |
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theme or race? how about both?
something not really happend,besides in the dwarfs and orcs expension of the h5. imagine a dwarfs ally with minoutours,and efreeti allis with warlocks-demons,not becouse of one or another reason
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types in obscure english
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polaris
Promising
Known Hero
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posted August 16, 2008 07:42 PM |
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What's most important is to keep the game interesting using whatever means necessary.
Perhaps a better way of phrasing the initial question is "racial theming" vs. "non-racial theming", because it appears to me that both are themed, the difference is how narrowly the theme is defined. Specifically, in racial theming the theme must be the race. This can be a benefit because it is often easier to come up with more facets to explore a theme the more restrictions there are (perhaps counterintuitively). However the downside is that it becomes much harder to differentiate in a variety of ways simultaneously, because the theme inherently must link everything together. To distinguish relative to the theme breaks the theme. Thus there are certain kinds of distinctions that can't be made, and the narrower the theme the more problematic this becomes.
One pitfall with specifically defining all the themes in the same way is that they are all going to lack the ability to distinguish certain characteristics in the same way (some example characteristics are: artistic, gameplay, story, etc). This can obviously be mitigated by loosening the theme (e.g. introducing non-racial units in a racial theme). Loosening a theme is not a problem if it is determined that the theme is holding back creativity; and to be fair, tightening a loose theme is pretty hard.
Does this answer the question of racial theming vs. no? I'd say it's a wash. Racial-theming vs. non-racial theming misses question-- either one can work depending on the skills of the team of developers. If the creative team is on the weak side, it's probably safer to go with stronger themes because it's harder to screw those up. But if the team is very talented, they really could divide it in any way that they choose, and racial-theming can be one of those ways. I would like to leave the doors open to more ways of dividing towns up because the real question is not "what are the themes based on?" it's "are the themes good?"
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted August 16, 2008 08:01 PM |
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Just someting that struck my mind: You(anybody actually), will play a race in a game and use units unless it goes against all logic(a 2cm tall skeleton is a top tier, and is a meele fighter), and its design is not way to bad. If you got a faction with units and design that seriusly hurts your eyes so you start bleeding you will likely avoid picking that race unless its your pro race that is(and still then you will avoid really using it).
If a game does not contain enogh difference betwhen A B and C we got a problem, and this series is alot about differnce and war. Some ideas of the previus games should be dropped while places where real options could stay, they should stay. I mean, comeon....... I do not want the choice of Vamp Prince vs Vamp Lord again. Simple, Vamp prince is better.
Besides, we want the game to be different from other games so that the artformn can easly be a way to identify the units. Currently they attempt a real style with cartoon ways whom are sterotypical warcraft style.
They should either have gone completely over to cartoon look or be as contriversial as moving over to cellshading with the proper outline.
Or they could attempt to do a new uniqe way.
Either way, the games demand uniqe and big.
But Big is not better unless its properly done.
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Yann
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 16, 2008 10:27 PM |
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Polaris I believe you struck a very good point. My explanation earlier attempted to describe factions having a strong central theme that was somewhat tied to race but incorporated many non-racial creatures (race was emphasized by heroes and certain creatures). However, I am a very big Heroes III enthusiast.
So tell me if you think the 3do developers were a stronger team than the current Heroes V team based on their strength of theme (specifically the first 3 heroes games).
In my opinion, the Heroes V team did a very average job trying to incorporate a more racial look for the factions as opposed to keeping a strong theme with a few racial tie ins.
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polaris
Promising
Known Hero
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posted August 18, 2008 02:56 AM |
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Thanks Yann.
Well, I better fess up sooner rather than later. I never actually... um... played Heroes 5. Well, I got the demo and played that but it's hardly fair to judge from that. I'll say I liked the graphics and it looks like they had some interesting ideas 
Anyway, Heroes 3 is still my favorite of the set, but I think there is certainly a lot of room for improvement in how it game was set up.
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted October 13, 2009 06:32 PM |
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BUMPING because I loved this debate, and it seems like it's starting in places where it shouldn't. So VOTE here, and express your opinion! 
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Paulemile
Known Hero
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posted October 13, 2009 07:04 PM |
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Yep, didn"t know that such a thread existed. Voted 
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted October 13, 2009 07:57 PM |
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Sorry if I'm being repetitive, I'm just sort of jumping in on the conversation because 21 pages is a lot I've read the recent posts though.
I think ideally there should be a loose race-based theme, but still enough versatility to throw some unique monsters in the batch. Fortress, for example, with it's line-up of 6 dwarf units followed by a single elemental is far too rigid; even Haven, which in previous games was notorious for it's singularity, is more diverse than that. I think an ideal example would be Dungeon: it has 3 dark elf based units, and then 4 different units that follow along to create a theme.
As for the discussion on Academy, I think the kink in it's thematic tranquility is actually with the tier 7 titans. The six previous creatures all follow a pretty fluent magical Arabian/wizardly theme, and then you have those big storm giants thrown into the mix. They've been in the Heroes games forever, so people will be nostalgic over ditching them, although I think they could weave their way into a dwarf faction well enough if you worked them away from their current elegant appearance and into a somewhat more rugged look.
    
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 13, 2009 08:21 PM |
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Actually, there isn't really an answer, primarily because some races (ie Dwarves, Humans) are going to have more racial creatures than others (ie Elves, Wizards).
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Asheero
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posted October 14, 2009 01:44 AM |
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Edited by Asheero at 01:46, 14 Oct 2009.
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Quote:
Quote:
A spear wielder isn't a creature
I'm tired of "creatures". It is just... a little too childish...
I mean, do you see us humans, when we go to war, that we have only Riflemen as humans, and then a lot of animals like dogs, cats, etc etc? (tanks/air planes can't be considered because those are war machines)
NO, we have ONLY HUMANS and A LOT of types! We have Riflemen, Guys with Machineguns, Snipers, Artillery Guys, Spies, etc.
Quote:
You see it's pretty easy to make a castle like that.
And if it easy it means it's not ok?
Besides, you should have played Spellforce 1, here are some lineups:
Elf:
Elf Ranger
Elf Warder
Elf Windarcher
Elf Healer
Elf Druid
Elf Wintermage
Elf Wanderer
Elf Protector
Dark Elf:
Dark Elf Assassin
Dark Elf Darkblade
Dark Elf Battlemaster
Dark Elf Death Knight
Dark Elf Havoc
Dark Elf Sorcerer
Dark Elf Necromancer
Dark Elf Warlock
Orcs:
Orc Thug
Orc Spearman
Orc Fighter
Orc Veteran
Orc Totem
Orc Firemaster
Orc Drummer
Orc Hornblower
I think that you, "lovely lady" should go and play sims for a change, you seem to hate fantasy and everything that is unrealistic...
You hate minotaurs, manticores, gorgons, medusa's and only play with humans, elves and stupid dwarves?
Come on, that is called sims, go and play that horrible game.
Realistic is boring, we see that everyday and most games are without monsters so you have al lot of choices for games.
Don't spoil HOMM with that kind of HORRIBLE ideas.
A town with only elves? haha sooo boring it makes my head dizzy.
Please 3DO don't listen to this boring ideas, they make me puke.
Thank you!
But I myself would like to see mixed things. 2 elves and 6 other creatures.
2 dwarves and 6 other creatures, the humans being the only exception, and of course the undead, demons and wizards.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 14, 2009 06:00 AM |
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Quote:
Please 3DO don't listen to this boring ideas
I don't think there's much of a risk of that.
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Eccentric Opinion
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 14, 2009 07:25 AM |
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Yeah, primarily because 3D0 went under in 2003.
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This thread is pages long: 
