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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 06, 2008 09:16 PM |
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Hmm, I really don't think Undead are NOT a race. I mean, I heard a lot of times: race = Undead or something similar, but never race = skeleton
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 06, 2008 10:24 PM |
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In my opinon you cant count Academy and Inferno to the theme-based.
In Inferno there are demons, they are a race.
In Academy they have summoned creatures and magical constructs - it doesnt count because Academy is supposed to be like that.
You obiusly did not get how i did it.
Lets take Haven or Fortress(H5).
They are all of the same race, exepct for the top unit(whom is worthshipped). It is pure.
Infero is 100% demonic, but not 100% demon. We got a demonic dog and a demonic horse in there......
Soo they are not pure.
Academy?
Race: Wizards
Creeps: Whatever the wizards summon/build for battle
The creeps is purely on the theme: Yupp.
Lets take a look at H3 fortress, you could still use "it is suppose to be like that". But the point is that it is only the units connected to the faction following what the idea is.
If the race had only been wizards, it would have been a pure race.
If it has been like 25-60% wizards, it would have been a partial race.
Me? I enjoy the factions purely based on their themes, lets say H3 Conflux. They are soo freaking cool 
Quote:
Hmm, I really don't think Undead are NOT a race. I mean, I heard a lot of times: race = Undead or something similar, but never race = skeleton
They where all once alive and was a race, then they died. The race is tecnicaly "Non-living". It is complicated.
So i put them under partial.
They are not a pure race, but not completely separated either.
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No, that would be a Skeleton Faction, not an Undead on
You are missing the whole entire essence of this whole thread. Undead is not a species, skeleton is a species (Well you know what I mean).
Skeletons are the bones of people, it is undead if it moves.
Tecnicaly a skeleton is a non-race being. A D-elf dies? Leaves a skeleton, a wood elf died? leaves a skeleton, etc.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 06, 2008 10:45 PM |
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Quote:
Hmm, I really don't think Undead are NOT a race. I mean, I heard a lot of times: race = Undead or something similar, but never race = skeleton
Although we're in fantasy world, I think it makes sense to introduce different levels here, just like in the animal and plant world. I would distinguish between creature class and creature race (or: Type).
Thus:
Creature classes: Undead, Demonic, Humanoids, Animals, Magical Beasts, Dragons(?), etc.
Within each class, there are several different races (or: Types) of creatures:
Undead: Skeletons, Vampires, Liches, Zombies, etc.
Demonic: Imps, Demons, Succubi, Fiends, Devils(?), etc.
Humanoids: Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, etc.
Dragons: Chromatic Dragons, Metallic Dragons, Mineral Dragons, etc.
Thus, I agree that Necropolis and Inferno are to be categorized as Theme Based, whereas a Vampire faction or an Imp faction (both have been sugested in this community!) would be Race based. On the other hand, Haven, Sylvan and Fortress obviously are Race based.
Btw. this also handily brings up another point I'd like to make: Just because I'm in favor of the race approach, that doesn't mean I think all factions have to be race based, and neither do I think all races qualify for a faction. Thus, the idea of an Imp faction doesn't appeal to me at all, it's simply too narrow. The same goes for a Halfling faction, Halflings are simply not significant enough to make a good faction for me.
Academy, on a sidenote, sits somewhere in between the two groups - or perhaps, in neither of them. Guess that depends how we categorize animates and summoned creatures.
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What will happen now?
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Galev
Famous Hero
Galiv :D
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posted July 07, 2008 12:35 AM |
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Edited by Galev at 11:41, 07 Jul 2008.
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And I was called stubborn? Htcha!
I voted for races. It's a bit of better taste for me. I liked H2 and H3 and oh yeah I'm one of those (few) who played and enjoyed H4 for years. But I think H5 is "simply the best" . Good ideas were succesfully mixed up to a working solution.
(now I will be talking about H5)
I first was nastily shocked about the new arabic wizards but I got used to them. And now I find it OK. Gremlins, golems, gargoyle, genie, titan, lion-man insted of naga -it fits desert better. We have the all favourite library back, what else could we ask for? (umm... could I ask for)
Dungeon is now given a new flavour. Still under ground, still darky-powermaniac. Minotaurs, black dragons back (or here again). You need to get used to the extra-bouffant-haired ladies with a sado-maso dress . But there are nice lizards -who cares about the pale guy on them?
And a great improve!!! First time ever I enjoy playing human town. Looks much much better (town itself) now have a certain feeling about it I missed before. It ws so empty before for me.
And Sylvan elves. Hey, if you can't bear a war dancer it's your great pech. If you can't bear there are no more war-singers eg. it's yours /sorry I'm tired and am writing down things with less control than usual/ There are nice little faires, and oak-men -and horned horses. And the town music theme is just that Great! It makes me want to dance.
Inferno? I never liked it -it has no appeal for me. Not as bad...
Same with necro. Who likes rotting flesh? (rising the shield to ward the cold steels and boney arrows) With that two you have all what you had before -and noone seems to complain, so it's pretty enough of them.
Dwarfs? He-he: Do not buy the expansion! It solves so many problems, and saves you some gold... dollars. I only would like to point out it would be too ludicurous to call any unit in the Dwarf town "Dwarf" like callinng the only human unit in a castle "Human". It works well if it's the only representative of it's kind in the town (H2/H3) but if the whole town is based on them... not lucky choice. But as I do not have the Hammesr of Fate and probably never will, I say: HA-HA-HA! (only joking, but still it's your pech, shame) 
So I do like things the way in H5. It was a bit frustrasting to have undeads and demons all together eg. But I liked H4 as well. So I think I go to bed. Good night!
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Incidence? I think it's cummulative!
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 07, 2008 12:38 AM |
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it's your pech
Am I hearing a dutch expression?
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Galev
Famous Hero
Galiv :D
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posted July 07, 2008 11:46 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
it's your pech
Am I hearing a dutch expression?
No.
I definately do not speak dutch. (I speak English, and French un peu; my native is Hungarian)The word "pech" means sg. like 'hard luck', a 'tiny kind of misfortune', 'something pity' in Hungarian and as the word it sure not Hungarian in origin, I thought it means the same in English. Sorry for the prejudice and the misuse of English
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Incidence? I think it's cummulative!
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted July 07, 2008 03:31 PM |
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haha Pech is the same is Dutch 
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Galev
Famous Hero
Galiv :D
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posted July 07, 2008 07:39 PM |
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I'm a bit off
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haha Pech is the same is Dutch
Englishmen don't know what they miss. (yeah, yeah, and so the Australians, Americains and blah-blah-blah*)
*a phrase that means all the same everywhere
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Incidence? I think it's cummulative!
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 07, 2008 07:54 PM |
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Hmm.. This Inferno and Necro -race vs. theme- debate is very interesting. Well in heroes 3 I really saw everything as theme based. Then in Heroes 5, Sylvan, Dungeon, Stronghold became race-based, and Fortress went even beyond that where basically every unit looks the same. Fortress is the castle of dwarves.
Even though, There is no need to argue about these castles since it appears that everyone is happy with I would have to agree most with A5ado. It even looks like a bunch of you changed your minds after what he said.
To me "Undead creatures" is as much of a theme as "woodland creatures" for H3's Rampart. Same as Inferno having "Satanic creatures". The creatures in the army are definitely different enough to be considered different "races". What H5 did is take a single creature from a castle and give them different outfits and call them different names. The same could be done with a single unit with either Inferno or Necro.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 07, 2008 08:24 PM |
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What H5 did is take a single creature from a castle and give them different outfits and call them different names.
You must be totally ignorant of what I write. I already explained that to you, what most of you people have said does in no way qualify near a 'good' line-up, it's not as easy as random picking, you have to come up with culture, social attributes, purpose and roles, philosophy, etc.. not just a bunch of random names like you continuously seem to imply.
If you do not take the time to read what I say or ignore and make me repeat myself then I do not see why I should post anymore, does that make you feel better?
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A5ado
Tavern Dweller
Master of Logic
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posted July 07, 2008 08:31 PM |
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Hmm, I really don't think Undead are NOT a race. I mean, I heard a lot of times: race = Undead or something similar, but never race = skeleton
Well, it doesn't really matter what you heard, I just want to point out that whenever I am speaking of races, I am talking about all the same species. Its tough to explain this with necropolis because they are not alive, so I will use Rampart from H3. It had centaurs, dwarves, elves, pegasus, etc. None of these could reproduce with eachother except those of the same race Therefore, they are different races. For all intensive purposes, skeletons could not reproduce with vampires. I know its kind of comical but my point is that they are in no way the same race. The exact same thing goes for Inferno.
So, keep in mind when you read my posts and those of zazu1 and the like, that when we say theme based vs. race based this is what we really mean. Undead is a theme, demonic are a theme; dwarf is a race; centaur is a race.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 07, 2008 08:34 PM |
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Here are the races from Neverwinter Nights (which is based on the famous D&D setting!):
Dwarf
Elf
Gnome
Halfling
Half-Orc
Half-Elf
Human
Aberration
Animal
Beast
Construct
Dragon
Goblinoid
Monstrous
Orc
Reptilian
Elemental
Fey
Giant
Magical Beast
Outsider
Shapechanger
Undead
Vermin
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 07, 2008 08:50 PM |
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you have to come up with culture, social attributes, purpose and roles, philosophy, etc...
But you certainly don't have to reflect this in the army of a faction. Beastmasters from Heroes III have all of these things and yet: only two out of seven tiers are race-based.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 07, 2008 08:53 PM |
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Edited by Geny at 20:56, 07 Jul 2008.
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@Asheera
It also has Monstrous and Magical Beast. Are you saying that those are legitimate races as well?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 07, 2008 08:55 PM |
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Quote:
But you certainly don't have to reflect this in the army of a faction. Beastmasters from Heroes III have all of these things and yet: only two out of seven tiers are race-based.
If you come up with a line-up which is race-based (as zazu or someone made up randomly some names), then yes you need to add that to the creatures.
This was not an argument for race-based towns, but a response to their 'examples' that race-based towns are easy and unimaginative!
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 07, 2008 09:00 PM |
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Could you briefly explain the purpose and cultural role of a Spearwielder or Harpooner? (you say creatures so perhaps you actually mean creatures, not sentients, I dunno)
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 07, 2008 09:01 PM |
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Quote:
It also has Monstrous and Magical Beast. Are you saying that those are legitimate races as well?
Well, the Rakshasa/Manticore/Basilisk for example might fall in the Magical Beast category.
And Minotaurs in D&D are Monstrous! (in what category would you place them anyway?)
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 07, 2008 09:03 PM |
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Could you briefly explain the purpose and cultural role of a Spearwielder or Harpooner?
In their description. Of course I hope I did not imply that Nival are the best and so on -- I meant how a race based town should be (talking about e.g: Heroes 6).
BUT if i find anything (if I do search) about dwarves and their creatures and culture whatever, I will let you know -- I do know that it may not be official into the game.
I'm sorry if I made the image of Ubival being the most perfect game makers in the world it was certainly not my intent
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 07, 2008 09:05 PM |
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Quote:
Well, the Rakshasa/Manticore/Basilisk for example might fall in the Magical Beast category.
That's just it, a category is not a race, it's a group of cretures that have something in common - it could be race (elves, dwarves, humans...) or it could be theme (undead, demonic, magical...).
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 07, 2008 09:07 PM |
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In Starcraft, Zerg is a race too, even if not all creatures share the same DNA
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This thread is pages long: 
