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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Upgrades Analysis
Thread: Upgrades Analysis This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 13, 2008 08:25 PM

Quote:
also note that the black dragon retaliation is also stronger than the phoenix one.


lol, forgot to consider the fact the phoenix can retaliate more often
but I think you get the point.
also I didn't say one is better. in some case more initiative is better, in others it's more damage.

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted October 13, 2008 08:26 PM
Edited by Asheera at 20:27, 13 Oct 2008.

Yes of course it depends, but what I'm saying is that 11 Initiative can't be compared when making balance with only 10% extra damage. Since Morale is apparently "weaker" than Luck (provides a smaller bonus - but to something which, supposedly is better) then 10% extra initiative is better than 10% extra damage (ON AVERAGE, I know there are a lot of cases but when making balance or comparisons like these you have to take out an average situation, you simply can't balance for all situations that may occur )

So, I found out that extra Initiative has an effect of 33% great than extra damage. (I found this 33% number by dividing 2 (the Luck factor) by 1.5 (the Morale factor) -> result is 1.33)

This means that an initiative of 11 is actually (on average) like having 13% extra damage, NOT 10% (I used my formula which is explained in the first post - I'm too lazy to explain it again)

Likewise a unit with 16 Initiative is like having 80% extra damage than one with 10 Initiative, NOT 60%!

Remember, all of those are on average situations, you can't balance for all possible scenarios.
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 13, 2008 08:31 PM

well, actually there are some cases where I think the extra initiative is obviously better than the extra damage. for shooters and spellcasters.

about my formula, I kept it "simple" because you can't really calculate accurately the "power" of the initiative.

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PsyrenJ
PsyrenJ


Hired Hero
Need 180 HP S.Mistress 4 Hire?
posted October 13, 2008 09:02 PM

Hey Asheera, mad thread you have going here. All these calculations do put many things into perspective, yes, and strategy games are a "numbers" game indeed, but one cannot create a formula for human ingenuity...

Also ppl will always be debating that X>Y cos of ABC, thats just the nature of strats. and ppl as a whole, so while we may have these concreate numbers and averages, we will never run out of ppl thinking differently.


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Darkshadow
Darkshadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted October 13, 2008 09:37 PM

Quote:
With all those things Banshees become killing machines, trust me


I tried, and 100 banshees are no more killing machine than 100 wraiths
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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted October 13, 2008 09:39 PM
Edited by Asheera at 21:39, 13 Oct 2008.

In 3.1? Because their Banshee Wail damage has been doubled
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 13, 2008 11:04 PM

Sometimes theoretically average creature becomes the most important part of the strategy. See hydras and 100% magic warlock. They are slow, have decent but not very "tankish" abilities (save regen or acid blood), have poor init.. but they are durable. And that's what matters more than anything else here ;p

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Darkshadow
Darkshadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted October 14, 2008 08:56 AM

Quote:
In 3.1? Because their Banshee Wail damage has been doubled


Yeah, the death wail is still lame
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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted October 14, 2008 09:17 AM

Am I the only one that thinks that numbers are by far not all there is to it?
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Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted October 14, 2008 09:39 AM

No you are not the only one...
the numbers are just a part of overall analysis, different aspect analysis.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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Retired Hero
posted October 14, 2008 09:57 AM

Quote:
Am I the only one that thinks that numbers are by far not all there is to it?


yes but they are a nice start for an analysis

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LightCrusader
LightCrusader


Hired Hero
Death before Dishonour
posted October 14, 2008 10:03 AM

and i think that this thread is QP-worthy, we can clearly see that asheera has worked hard on it and deserves some prize

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Darkshadow
Darkshadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted October 14, 2008 10:07 AM
Edited by Darkshadow at 10:10, 14 Oct 2008.

Quote:
and i think that this thread is QP-worthy, we can clearly see that asheera has worked hard on it and deserves some prize


^_^?
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 14, 2008 10:23 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 10:24, 14 Oct 2008.

ofc it is

Can't wait till Heroes6 since I analyzed almost every possible aspect of this game duh

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted October 14, 2008 01:43 PM

Quote:
Am I the only one that thinks that numbers are by far not all there is to it?
Of course these numbers aren't the whole point, but they're not really that far from all there is to it. For example, with my analysis you can clearly see that Nival did a very poor job at balancing the Minotaurs.

I mean, the Minotaur Taskmaster has 89.3% better stats, while the Guard has only the Double Strike ability - the latter is clearly far inferior. For once, IF attacking a creature which has no retaliation left, the Guard will do double damage, which is like having 100% better stats. So, only in this situation is he a little better (100% vs 89.3%, not really a very big difference).

However, there are a lot of weaknesses with that Double Strike ability. First, the second attack is done after the retaliation of the enemy, which is a major weakness (compared with double damage). Second, on retaliations it doesn't work at all.

And this is without taking the Aura of Bravery vs Bravery into consideration. The former is clearly a little better since it affects the adjacent units as well.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted October 14, 2008 01:57 PM

Quote:
Am I the only one that thinks that numbers are by far not all there is to it?
I wonder how would you people that all claim "numbers are rubbish", how would you even balance a game at all?

j/k

Math says correct probably %85+ of a game, except for specials, but Ash did not use the special abilities for calculations so you have no excuse there.

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Elvin
Elvin


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Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 14, 2008 02:16 PM

Sure we do when she draws certain conclusions
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Asheera
Asheera


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posted October 14, 2008 03:11 PM

Sorry about those conclusions, that was just my opinion

I already said at the start that you don't have to agree with those subjective conclusions
Quote:
I simply compare their stats, and enumerate their Abilities, and add a few comments then. Hopefully this way some people will have a better understanding of some upgrade choices, the decision of which you'll want to use is yours.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 14, 2008 04:20 PM

Sorry, Ash, I posted this already in CH.

I have a problem with this analysis. In my opinion it's simply too superficial. As you may know or not know I had a rating system for H3, and then I put a lot of time in trying to figure out how to rate a unit and especially a given ability.

I have quite a few objections about the way this is rated, since you can't just rate the changes without any connection to the unit. Moreover you have to find a way to rate specials, otherwise it makes no sense.

The first thing to see is this: a unit has an offensive value and a defensive value. The offensive value is the average damage value modified by attack, the defensive value is Hit Points modified by defense. The modification makes sense only against a reference value of a standard attack or defense value, and here it makes sense to take something like an average unit. The average unit in H5 has something of attack 12 and defense 11. The average unit, on the other hand, is level 4, and the average level 4 is 9/8. You can make a case for both, but let's take the average level 4 for reference value.
The raw value of a unit would therefore be the square root of the product of offense and defense or sqrt(modDam*modHP)
Let's check now Initiative. Initiative is important for both offense and defense because not only it determines how often a unit may apply damage, it determines as well, how often a unit may be hit between turns. The same is true for speed, albeit in a different way. For Init it makes sense ro take 10 as a reference value. For speed it makes sense to take 5 as a reference value, since this will allow to cross the board in 2 turns which is important. For initiative this might simply mean that we divide it by 10 and multiply with the result, while we might simply divide speed by 5 and mutiply it with the result.
At this point you don't have any special included nor the fact that there are shooters, flyers and ground pounders, but let's say for the matter of the argument here that you will take ground units at face value and give flyers a bonus (even though, if I had to do this seriously I'd do it for flyers at face value and modify all ground units down).

This allows to compare both the Minotaur upgrades.
The taskmaster will be:

sqrt(6.5/1.1*40/1.2)*0.9*1=12.63

For the Guard we have to factor in the double attack. If we simply say a round consists of attacking once (and get a retaliation) and defending once (and get a retaliation), we see that a normal unit will have 2 attack actions while the Guards have 3 (in retaliation they hit only once), which means attack will be multiplied with 1.5. [But note, that this will not allow to factor in a special that allows more than one retaliations,]

So the Guard is:

sqrt(5.5*1.5/1.15*35/1.35)*0.8*1=10.91

That leaves the special to factor in. Bravery and Aura of Bravery, with the latter being the better one, since it includes the former.

Conclusion for Minos. Leave Taskmasters at Init 8 like the Guards and they are still a bit better, albeit depending on the artifacts your hero has you may want to go for the Guards occasionally.

Giving the Taskmaster the same init than the Guard and reducing his maximum damage to 7 would bring his value to 10.79 which might make it a tough decision. Since the Taskmaster not only hits heavier but has more HPs as well, giving him MORE initiative is wrong for me anyway, which means that the minos are badly done.

Now with Dungeon level 2 it gets more interesting.
We have two important specials to look at, No Retal and Strike and Return. Following the double attack logic you may say that No Retal will allow only one attack on them instead of two, in effect doubling the defense value, while Strike and Return is obviously dependant on speed and again does something for the defensive side: I'll make the factor speed/reference speed which would be 8/5.

That makes Furies:

sqrt(6/1.15*16/1.3*2*1.6)*1.6*1.6=36.70 (and now you know exactly why Furies are so much better than Minos )

Sisters are:
sqrt(5.5/1.15*21/1.25*2*1.6)*1.4*1.6=35.92

Which leaves the Weakness Immunity of the Sisters. I don't rate that very high. Sure, with a damage range of 3-8 the damage might be quite low if Weakened, so what it essentially is, is an insurance that their high damage range isn't a penalty.

Anyway, with Light Magic not being Dungeon's favorite, the higher damage range is no plus either, not to mention that even IF you find Divine Strength in the Guild, your hero will be busy otherwise casting damage spells.

Which means, for me, that the Furies are slightly better, BUT: here we have two good alternatives. Furies in the beginning, and later switching to Sisters may not be wrong, depending on the situation.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted October 14, 2008 05:47 PM

That's a pretty interesting analysis JollyJoker - I'm curious, how does this hold up on other units? Do you get so good results in general, or does it come out more at random if you apply this to all the units in the game (or just in Dungeon for a starter, to take a "random" population)?

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