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| Thread: Heroes and Commanders |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted December 20, 2008 01:48 PM |
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Edited by jiriki9 at 16:43, 20 Dec 2008.
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Heroes and Commanders
In this thread, I'll follow an idea I allready discussed with "Drako_the_noob" in my version of HoMM6, but I won't include it in that system^^
The idea is to seperate the "Heroes" as we know them into two different main groups:
-Commanders are the leaders of an army - the 'heroe' you can see on the adventure map, that cannot travel without his troops. They give the troops bonusses and have passive skills like Leadership, Logistics, etc. They do NOT act in battles!!! They cannot attack, they cannot cas Spells (!) and they have no active ability.
-Heroes are more like the heroes 4 heroes, but they do not occupy a whole creature slot. Each Commander can take 7 heroes with him and declare up to 3 to be his "staff" (explaine below). Heroes are similar to creatures, running around on the battlefield, and capable of attacking and spellcasting and many have very special abilities. They can also travel alone/without an army. they are mostly quicker then, but it's also a danger, for they can still be attacked!! Hero can have battle mounts...
The Staff:
Commanders can have a staff of up to three heroes. Heroes in a staff get a small amount of the commanders exp and can give him several bonusses, especially when thei're skilled fo rit. Many hero skills have secondary staff effects.
Now, as first detail, I want to point out the most important skills (some ar entoyet complet,e forgive me, will you?  )
Perks are listed below the spells
The Commander skills:
1. Leadership:
Well, the skill as we know it...it gives moral bonusses to your commanders troops.
-Tactics (Increases the Radius in which the commander can place his troops)
-Beloved Leader (When a unit's moral is below 0, it gets +1 moral)
-Cruel Leader (Increases the chance of your units both to fail because of bad moral and to get another action because of good moral)
2. Offense:
This skill gives your troops bonusses on melee and ranged attack and on damage.
-Rush Attack (The commanders troops get +2 speed when attacking in melle (making them capable of reaching enemy units further away.))
-Break Defense (The commanders troops ignore a small percentage of the enemy defense when attacking in melee[5%*Offense_Level])
-Flanking (The commanders units gain +25% attack when attackign from aside a unit and +50% when attacking an enemy unit from the backside)
-Archer Coordination (Troops with ranged attacks gain +25% Initiative)
-Advanced Archer coordination (Requires Archer Coordination; Troops with ranged attacks gain +10% attack and deal +10% damage)
-Maneuvers (Requires Archer Coordination and any other second Offense Perk; Ranged units do not retaliate, when they're attacked in melee, but they run away to a free position, most far away from the attacker)
3. Defense:
This skill gives your troops bonusses on melee and ranged defense.
-Stand Ground (the commanders units cannot be moved by enemy abilities (like fear, etc.) or spells.
-Strong Defense (The commanders troops gain +50% extra defense when using the defense command)
-Fierce Retaliation (Increases the damag delat by retaliation creatures by 50%)
-Vigilance (Requires Fierce Retaliation; the commanders units retaliate before the attacker attacks them)
4. Siege Master:
This skill strengthens your offensive war machines (Ballista, Catapult, rams, Siege Towers, Ladders and whatever else their may be)
...there is a good general attempt on war machinses in a thread soemwhere around here (will post it later on) and I think that the machines and perks in that thread will work here, too.
5. Siege Defender:
This skill strengthens your walls in castle defense, and also your "Moat" (or whatever you have as it). additionally, your troops gain a bonus when fighting behind walls/in castle.
-Boiling Oil (Additional to your towers, you gain two pots of boiling oil, which yo can place on your city walls. pots of boiling oil automatically deal a good amount of damage to any enemy unit moving next to them. The enemy can NOT see where you place your pots!)
-Bastions (In Castle Defense, you can, before your and your enemies tactic phase, place 1-3 bastiosn (depending on your Siege Defender Level). Bastions are 1*3 squares big, cannot be placed on walls or moats and cannot be crossed by non-flying enemy creatures. A bastion has only a small amount opf hp, though, and can be attacked and destroyed.
-Portcullis (Your gate gis equipped with portcullis, which sink down, after the gate is destroyed, so they serve as a "second gate", with less hp, but more defense than a normal gate.
-Trap Holes (In Castle Defense, you can, before your and your enemies tactic phase, place 3 1*1 trap-holes on the battlefield (not on walls, moats, etc.) Those traps are invisible for your enemy. Any small enemy unit which walks over a trap hole (so, no flyers effected), immediately stands still, looses all its initiative and gets a small damage.)
-Large Trap Holes (Requires Trap Holes and replaces it; Like trap holes, but 2*2 squares and so also effects large creatures.)
6. Logistics:
Well known to everyone, isn't it? You can travel further on land with this skill.
-Pathfinder (Reduces movement penalty on difficult ground)
-Scouts (Increase sight range and chance of discovering an ambush and/or a heroe travelling alone)
-Ambushs (Decreases the chance for an enemy to discover your army when you've set an ambush and slightly increases your ambus range)
7. Navigation:
Exactly the same - just for the sea 
-Captain (The commanders troops gain a moral bonus when fighting on water and so gets the ships under the commanders control, when fighting in a sea battle)
-Ship Carpenter (The ships under the commadners control repair a small amount of damage every day and their defense is slightly increased. Additionally, repairing the ships in docks is cheaper.)
-Sea Veteran (The attack and initiative of ships in sea battle is reduced.)
-Experienced Navigator (Like Pathfinder on land)
-Buccaneer (Reuires Sea Veteran, cannot be combined with Admiral; When you win agaisnt a ship, either in sea battle or in direct combat, you have a chance of 25% that you did not destroy the ship, but boarded it = at the end of the battle, if you won, you'll get the ship, with 10% hp left)
-Admiral (Requires Captain, Nobility Level 2 and Sea Veteran; Expands the effects of the abilities Captain and Sea Veteran on ALL your ships and troops, no matter where they are on the adventure map. effects are not cumultative for more than one admiral)
8. Nobility:
This skill improves things in towns, like creature birth rate, etc.
-Estates (You gain an amount of gold, daily)
-Greater Estates (Requires Estates and replaces it; YOu gian a larger amount of gold every day)
-Family Banner (The commanders troops belonging to the same faction as the commadner gain +2 moral; Enemy troops belonging to the same faction as the commander get -2 moral)
-Slave Holder (Requires Estates; The commander is more efficient (+20% initiative for all troops))
-Friend of the Lower classes (Requires Estates, Cannot be combined with "Slave Holder"; All humanoid Tier 1&2 Creatures gain +50% initiative and +1 moral)
-Ancient Geneology (Requires Family banner; Increases the effect of all Nobility-Perks.
The Heroe skills:
1. Attacking:
Strengthens your heroe melee attack and damage.
-First Attack (Requires Attacking Level 2; The hero gains the combat ability "First Strike".
-Cleave (The hero gians the battle ability "Cleave")
-Assault (The hero gains the battle ability "Assault")
-Double Strike (Requires (Cleave or Assault) and Level 4; The Hero gains the battle ability "Double Strike")
-Bash (The hero gains the battle ability "bash")
-No enemy Retaliation (Requires Bash and Level 5; The hero gains the battle ability "No enemy Retaliation")
-Battle Rage (Requires Level 5; The hero gains the battle ability "Battle Rage")
-Berserke Rage (Requires Level 5; The hero gains the battle ability "Berserker Rage")
-Crippling Wound (Requires Level 3; The hero gains the battle ability "Crippling Wound")
2. Defending:
Strengthens your heroes melee and ranged defense
-Agility (Requires Level 3; The hero gains the battle ability "Agility")
-Armoured (The hero gains the battle ability "Armoured")
-unlimited Retaliation (Requires Level 5; The hero gains the battle ability "Unlimited Retaliation")
-Battle Frenzy (Requires Unlimited Retaliation; The hero gains the battle ability "Battle Frenzy")
-Fierce Retaliation (Requires Level 3; The hero gains the battle ability "Fierce Retaliation")
3. Archery:
Your hero gains the ability to shoot from distance and, further developed, this ability strengthens your ranged attack and damage.
-No Range Penalty (Requires Archery Level 3; the hero gains the battle ability "No Range Penalty")
-Precise Shot (The hero gains the battle ability "Precise Shot")
-Ranged Retaliation (Requires Level 3; The hero gaisn the battle ability "Ranged Retaliation")
4. Stealth:
This ability gives your hero the ability to travel in stealth, when he travels alone on the adventure map.
-Invisibility (The hero gains the battle ability "Invisibility")
-Sneaky Strike (Requires Invisibility and Level 5; the Hero gains the battle ability "Sneaky Strike")
-Disguise (Requires Level 7 and Scouting; The hero can enter enemy towns with only a small chance to be seen, and so give you some Information about the town (Buildings, and calcualted ressources). every Successfull Disguise-mission gives the hero exp.)
-Spy (Requires Level 10, Scouting Level 2 and Disguise; Entering cities by Disguise gives you more informations (army strengths, position of enemy towns))
-Tricky Spy (Requires Level 13 and Spy; Entering cities by Disguise gives you a lot more of information (garrison/visiting hero stats+artifacts, players ressources, Current Position of Enemy Armies))
Master Spy (Requires Level 15, Scouting Level 3 and Tricky Spy; Entering cities by Disguise gives you a lot more of information (Current army strengths of enemy Armies; Current position of enemy Heroes (even in stealth!!!), Positions of enemy dwellings, mines and garrison gates))
-Thievery (The hero can, when engaging an enemy hero or any building in stealth, steal a small amount of gold)
-Advanced Thievery (Requires: Level 4, Thievery; Increases the stolen amount of gold through thievery; the hero can also engage towns to steal gold)
-Talented Thieve (Requires: Level 6, Thievery; Increases the stoeln amount of gold. When engaging a hero/commander, the theive can try to steal a random artifact by the hero, instead of gold, the fail chance, however, is bigger then)
-Audacious Thieve (Requires: Level 9, Talented Thieve; Increases the stolen amount of gold. When stealing an artifact, you may choose one of up to three random chosen artifacts of the enemy to steal)
-Master Thieve (Requires: Level 13, Audacious Thieve; Highly increasesthe stolen amount of gold. When stealing an artifact, you may choose two artifacts of all artifacts in possession of the enemy hero/commander, which you want to steal.)
5. Scouting:
This ability expands the sight range of your hero and gives him greater chances to discover stealth heroes and ambushs (!) - works only when the hero is on a land square.
-Vigilance (Icnreases the chance that enemy Thieves and Spies fail)
-Army Scout (Requires Level 2; Gives more detailed information about enemy armies)
-War Scout (Requires army Scout and LEvel 5; Gives more detaield information about enemy armies)
-Expert Army scout (Requires War Scout and Level 8; Gives even more detailed information about enemy armies)
-Lookout (Requires Sailor and Level 6; Expands the Effects of Scouting and All its perks on situations when the hero is on a boat/ in a staff of a commander on a ship;
-Battle Messenger (Requires Level 2; When in Staff, the army's units gain 5% initiative)
-Experienced Battle Messenger (Requires Level 4 and Battle Messenger; the initiative bonus of the ability "Battle Messenger" is doubled)
-War Messenger (Requires Battle Messenger and Level 5; The hero can enter the staff of an allied commander, to give the army of him +20% movement)
6. Landlore:
This hero can travel much faster through the lands, because he knows them, and gives a small bonus to an army's movement when in the commanders staff.
-Woodlore (the hero can travel through light woods without loss of movement and through deep wood with less loss of movement)
-Forester (Requires Woodlore and Level 3; increases the hero's movement through deep woods. Increases the heroes initiative by 50% in battles which happen in any kind of Forest.)
-Mountainlore (The hero can travel through hills and mountain paths with much lesser movement loss, and, when alone, climp over mountains (but has extreme movement loss then - only 1-3 movement per day))
-Mountaineer (Requires Mountainlore and Level 3; increases the hero's movement over mountains, increases the heroes initiative by 50% in battles which happen in hills, mountain paths or mountains.)
-Swamplore (The hero can travel through swamp-terrain without movement loss)
-Swampwalker (Requires Swamplore; Increases the Initiative of the hero by 75% in battles which happen in a swamp)
-Desertlore (The hero can travel through desert-terrain without movement loss)
-Desertwalker (Requires Desertlore; Increases the Initiative of the hero by 75% in battles which happen in a Desert)
-Volcanolore (The hero can travel through volcano-terrain without movement loss)
-Volcaneer (Requires Volcanolore; Increases the Initiative of the hero by 50% in battles which happen in volcano-terrain)
-Snow Lore (The hero can travel through Arctic terrain without movement loss)
-Snowwalker (Requires Snow Lore; Increases the Initiative of the hero by 50% in battles which happen in Arctic terrain)
-Roughlandlore (The hero can travel through roughland-terrain without movement loss)
-Roughlandwalker (Requires Roughlandlore; Increases the Initiative of the hero by 75% in battles which happen in a Roughlands)
-Undergroundlore (The hero can travel through underground-terrain without movement loss)
-Tunnlecrawler (Requires Undergroundlore; Increases the Initiative of the hero by 75% in battles which happen in underground)
7. Sailor:
This hero can travel much faster in boats (which will be a hero equivalent to whole ships - they can only be steered by 1-5 heroes and allow them to travel on water, though not too quick) and, in staff, increases the army's movement points on water.
-Mate (Requires Level 5; In the staff of a commander, the commanders ships and units (during ship-battles) gain +10% initiative.
-Steerman (Requires Sailor Level 2; In sea battle, ships with a steerman in the commanders staff and boats with a steerman on board have +20% speed)
-Excellent Steerman (Requires Sailor Level 3 and Steerman; The bonus granted by steerman is increased to 50%)
-Nautic Scholar (Requires Level 4; increases the effect of all "Sailor"-perks.
...explanation of the magic-skill-perks: I have thought of leaving them pretty much as they're now, for there are no big changes necessary, if the magic-system remains the same...and it make sit a bit easier for this thread
8. Light Magic:
Like we know it - allows to cast Light magic spells of the respective level/s.
9. Dark Magic:
Like we know it - allows to cast Dark magic spells of the respective level/s.
10. Summoning Magic:
Like we know it - allows to cast Summoning magic spells of the respective level/s.
11. Destructive Magic:
Like we know it - allows to cast Destructive magic spells of the respective level/s.
12. Sorcery:
Strengthens the hero's ability to cast Spells.
Commander-classes:
Haven-commander: Knight
The classic haven commander-hero, fighting for justice and honour and to protect his/her lands.
Inferno-commander: Demon Lord
Pretty the same as they are now, but of course no active skills.
Sylvan Commander: Guardian
The Guardians are leading the Sylvan armies in this concept, for the rangers are heroes, no commanders.The name Guardian represents both their defensive purpose and their traditional attitude.
Necro Commander: Death knight
The Dark & Undead Version of the Knight is back again to cause more suffering among the living.
Dungeon Commander: ...I could need help here...what would be a good commander for the dungeon?
Academy Commander: Caliph
The Caliphs are now leading the Silver Cities' armies, and you could think that the wizards ar estupid to give such important tasks in the hand of non-magical people - but you should know that behind every Caliph a Vizier stands, playing puppet master.
Fortress Commander: Mountain Prince
The Dwarven Princes lead their armies into the battle, sas brave and loyal as the mountains themselves.
Stronghold Commander: War Chief
The War Chiefs are pretty much the Former Barbarians.
Neutral commanders:
There are a lot of neutrals with great commanding skills, offering their skills for money, glory, or some other, less obvious reasons...
1) General
Generals are the main neutral commanders. They can be found anywhere, are of any kidn of race and well-trained in leading an army, not only in battle, but also on the way to it.
Class-aligned skills: Leadership & Logistics
2) Warlord
Warlords are great leaders, too, but more agressive. They see the battle itself as mroe important than the preperation, which they mostly leave to others.
Class-aligned skills: Offense & Leadership
3) Conqueror
Conquerors are those who know how to conquer not only one Castle, but a whole land. They are rather rare to find, but very worthy in any war.
Class-aligned skills: Siege Master & Offense
4) Baron
Barons are eager to hold their position, so they train their armies not to loose. As most nobles, barons tend to value a secure outcome of a battle instead of risking everything for a small chance to win.
Class-aligned skills: Nobility & Defense
5) Discoverer
Discoverers are restless souls, who want to clear the last white spots from the map. They press their armies into the deepest jungle and over the deepest sees. And they surprisingly often succeed!!
Class-aligned skills: Navigation & Logistics
6) Landlord
Similar to the Baron, The Landlord wants to hold their position - but they are mroe eager to keep their hometown sure than only their army. Most Landlords' castles are full of Spiky walls and traps, and their garrisons are never empty.
Class-aligned skills: Nobility & Siege Defender
more details, hero classes and racials will follow later..
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stankelbenet
Adventuring Hero
bringer of nostalgia & darknes
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posted December 20, 2008 04:41 PM |
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I also saw the thread before and think it's a good discussion.
I don't like to separate heroes in commanders and not-commanders. I think all heroes shouldn't be able to exist without troops. Still i like the idea of heroes working together in a fight. So here's my thought:
1-3 heroes can be commanding an army. extra heroes will use up troop slots.
only the strongest hero in attack and defense will affect the creatures in the army with those skills.
Extra heroes are kept outside battle just like a normal hero in HOMM 5. They will take turns and be able to attack or cast spells. The heroes of one army will share experience evenly.
This will make some cool team-ups between magic and might heroes.
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jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted December 20, 2008 04:49 PM |
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Quote:
I think all heroes shouldn't be able to exist without troops.
That's the traditional system, and it's quite good, but I think their would be so much more options when you'd also have heroes who do not lead armies but travel around - and fit the term "hero" more, IMO.
But your suggestion is interesting, too, sounds similar to my idea of heroe fellowships in my thread, but not exactly the same (Yet another vision of Heroes 6, its point I.I 2)
btw...I've updated a bit...got some more perks and the commander classes now, including 6 neutral commander classes
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 20, 2008 07:49 PM |
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Well I'm fine with heroes appearing in Combat, but this is too complicated, either they are or they aren't.
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vampcorn
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 21, 2008 02:35 AM |
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While I think that having heroes take an active part in battles, there would have to be a lot of balancing and adjusting to make sure the Heroes wouldn't be overpowered. At the begining of a map a hero would have to be able to completly obliterate the weak tier 1 monster that guard things to be able to stand up against level 7 monsters.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 21, 2008 07:25 AM |
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Or give him an attack skill (mirrored in defence) that gives him alone (not affecting other creatures, for balance reasons) +1 attack per level.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted December 21, 2008 11:56 AM |
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Quote:
1. Attacking:
Strengthens your heroe melee attack and damage.
like this?^^
Heroes would be rather weak by themselves, unless they're really really Skilled in combat (both Attack and Defense!).
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Zozma
Hired Hero
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posted December 21, 2008 03:01 PM |
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I think a staff should only be able to hold one hero for the sake of balance. If you make heroes have an active role in the offense and defense as oppossed to the commander's passive role, then it's a given that heroes are going to be very good at what they do. That being said, three units with the power of several tier seven monsters seems a bit overpowered. Every army would have three heroes in it, which just seems to detract customization, really. Otherwise, I really like the idea.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted December 21, 2008 05:48 PM |
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I think you got me wrong with the staff here...perhaps I didn't describe it properly.
The staff does NOT mean the heroes who are in battle and fighting!!!
The staff are thsoe heroes assisting and helping the commander who does not interfere in the battle, and therefore they do not interfere in battle, too. They instead grant a bit of their skills aas passive skills to the commander. So, a Barbarian in a staff, only skilled on Attack would not be that great, allthough he ould give a slight boost to the troops' attack-stats. But a hero skilled in things like landlore can be rather useful.
For the balance-problem: heroes won't be that strong! In fact, on lower levels you could have problems keeping your heroes alive if you are not careful. And until a hero, in pure fighting, would be as strong as a lvl. 7 creature, he would need to be extremely "fighting"-skilled and on a rather high level. In fact, a hero lvl one will not be stronger than ONE average tier 1 (without his skills).
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vampcorn
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 21, 2008 08:19 PM |
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How about for Dungeon like, War Queen (King) or Night Queen (King) Since they seem to have a thing for Hierachy and Feminism. 
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zamfir
Promising
Supreme Hero
Allez allez allez
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posted December 21, 2008 09:16 PM |
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I read about a third of your post, and I must say this is interesting.
One thing: try to switch the names: Heroes are nammed Commanders and Commanders are named Heroes. This follows the traditions. Otherwise H6 will be bear the name Commanders of Might and Magic.
I'll post the rest after I finish reading.
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5 Times TV
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted December 21, 2008 09:20 PM |
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Quote:
Dungeon Commander: ...I could need help here...what would be a good commander for the dungeon?
Overlord?
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted December 22, 2008 11:15 AM |
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Quote:
One thing: try to switch the names: Heroes are nammed Commanders and Commanders are named Heroes. This follows the traditions. Otherwise H6 will be bear the name Commanders of Might and Magic.
 But that would be quite illogical:
Naming those who command the army heroes and those who don't commanders...A way to avoid the "commanders of might and magic" thing could be to name them both heroes, but seperate them into two hero-types:
Commandment-heroes
AND
Travelling-heroes OR Field-Heroes
@Asheera & vampcorn:
hmmm, both ideas for the dungeon commanders are good...overlords were the traditional H3 might-heroes for dugneon, weren't they?
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zamfir
Promising
Supreme Hero
Allez allez allez
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posted December 22, 2008 08:53 PM |
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@Jiriki: You can't just call Heroes "Commanders".
Find another name for the fighting characters, but the current Heroes must keep their name.
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5 Times TV
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted December 22, 2008 09:01 PM |
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Heroes and Veterans?
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zamfir
Promising
Supreme Hero
Allez allez allez
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posted December 22, 2008 09:25 PM |
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Veterans sounds like retired Heroes. So the retired Heroes, the Veterans, fight, while the youngsters just command?
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5 Times TV
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted December 22, 2008 09:27 PM |
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Veteran doesn't necessarily mean retired, it just means that it is experienced...
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted December 22, 2008 09:50 PM |
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I honestly do not really see your problem with commanders
I mean, it IS just the point that "heroe" everywhere but in the heroes-universe means a hero, who achieves something by doing and not (just) the leader of an army...
...but okay, let's think about an alternative.
i, too,think, that veterans could be a good name for the fighting heroes, especially because it would make sense that veterans also can form the staff of your hero.
Other ideas:
Heroes and...
-Bravers (?, got this as another translation for the german word for hero, don't know wether it fits)
-Adventurers (doesn't sound so good, I know)
-Wayfarers
-Companions/Comrades
just as a colleciton of ideas
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 28, 2008 06:58 PM |
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A few comments here. I like the idea of separating the "in combat" Hero from the "adventure map - kingdom ruler - explorer" Hero, but I'm not sure I'd do it as literally as actually making them two different persons. I think the same objective could be reached in a simpler way by having two different sets of skills, and let the Hero level up in each of them parallelly: A "Hero-affecting" set of skills, and an "army-affecting" set of skills. This is pretty much the same separation that you come up with.
The main problem I see with this is that in the end, the Army-affecting set of skills will be all the Might skills, while the Hero-affecting skills will be mostly magic skills and then possibly some added combat-training skills. I don't see a harmonous way to make up for this - no matter whether you go for the separate person approach or the single-person.
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What will happen now?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 28, 2008 11:36 PM |
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Sorry jiriki, but I have got to say that this a terrible idea, overly complex, and fairly unrealistic (for the period), I'd be much happier with either H3 or H4 style heroes.
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