|
|
Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
|
posted March 10, 2009 05:22 PM |
|
|
|
I think I already mentioned that giving any non-Warcry spells to Barbarians and expecting them to work, and vice versa with other heroes, is impossible as of patch 3.1.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted March 10, 2009 05:24 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I completely disagree with the Battle Mage:
Four Shatters, yet low chances of getting Leadership and Attack?? (I can live with WM and Logistics). If they have Low attack values, and NO Magic (sometimes even Shatters cannot counter powerfull Magic) makes them EXTREMELY vulnerable. I suggest you either allow them to learn Magic (or maybe even BOTH Shatters and Magic Schools at 4%) OR increase the values for Leadership and Attack forthwith. Otherwise, I fear they'll fail. More than often.
Battle Mage was more or less just to get it finished - I put the 4 Shatter Magics there to make them even, whether they'll have 8 % or 5 % of occuring (like the Barbarian) can always be fixed. Sorcery and Enlightenment are high to fuel War Cries, Luck was upped to favor Luck Of The Barbarian, and Defence ... well, to make them less offensive than Barbarians.
I agree that putting Attack at 2 % is a poor choice, but if Shatters are made to 5 %, then Attack and Leadership can be upped to 8 % each, which is probably more realistic.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
|
|
posted March 10, 2009 05:35 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
I completely disagree with the Battle Mage:
Four Shatters, yet low chances of getting Leadership and Attack?? (I can live with WM and Logistics). If they have Low attack values, and NO Magic (sometimes even Shatters cannot counter powerfull Magic) makes them EXTREMELY vulnerable. I suggest you either allow them to learn Magic (or maybe even BOTH Shatters and Magic Schools at 4%) OR increase the values for Leadership and Attack forthwith. Otherwise, I fear they'll fail. More than often.
Battle Mage was more or less just to get it finished - I put the 4 Shatter Magics there to make them even, whether they'll have 8 % or 5 % of occuring (like the Barbarian) can always be fixed. Sorcery and Enlightenment are high to fuel War Cries, Luck was upped to favor Luck Of The Barbarian, and Defence ... well, to make them less offensive than Barbarians.
I agree that putting Attack at 2 % is a poor choice, but if Shatters are made to 5 %, then Attack and Leadership can be upped to 8 % each, which is probably more realistic.
Yeah, that's a lot bearable 
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted March 10, 2009 05:45 PM |
|
|
Updated picture here then:
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted March 10, 2009 06:46 PM |
|
|
Yeah, people have started posting!
about alcibiades scheme and willows ideas:
I just filled out an excel table which I will post later, but i already see a lot of similar ideas. I'm also planning to stick with 2-8-10-15 + 10-15-30-45 numbers initially. For the barbarian I thought of 4% for shatters vs 6% shaman shatters. The primary skills for shaman can be something like: 25% A + 35% D + 10% SP + 30% K.
My major disagreement lies with the haven & sylvan classes. A dual class mod gives us finally the opportunity to create classes that can use dark magic and detructive magic, which are the second magic schools of haven and sylvan. This can provide much more interesting gameplay then adding more of the same defense and light magic orientated classes.
Some other things:
-I would rather focus the death knight on dark magic instead of summoning, because otherwise he needs spellpower and becomes to close to a necromancer. Generally dark and light are easier to handle for might classes. It also makes him opposite of living knights.
-It makes more sense to me if an alchemist is defensive instead of offensive. I agree on war machines, logistics etc.
-I agree logitics+attack are top skills for dungeon might hero, but destructive needs to be in the 15% zone anyway. irresistable + Empowered spells + elemental chains will always make it a top priority. To make a distinction we can make the magic class a total attack noob + focus on both summoning and destructive and maybe slight defense.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted March 10, 2009 07:41 PM |
|
|
Nice input. Let me give some feedback:
Quote:
My major disagreement lies with the haven & sylvan classes. A dual class mod gives us finally the opportunity to create classes that can use dark magic and detructive magic, which are the second magic schools of haven and sylvan. This can provide much more interesting gameplay then adding more of the same defense and light magic orientated classes.
I agree, actually. That would mean a complete restructuring of all the classes, however, including the current.
Current Knight class has 8 % chance for Light Magic and 8 % chance for Dark Magic. If we want to raise these chances (say: 15 % for Light and 10 % for Dark for Cleric (we should call him Inquisitor, really, with that much Dark Magic!)) we should lower chances accordingly for Knight - at least put Dark Magic down to 2 % imo.
As for Sylvan, much the same applies: Current Ranges has 8 % for Light Magic and 8 % for Dark Magic. If we grant Sylvan a real magic class, Ranger should lower Destructive to 2 %. Warden would have Destructive as his main then.
Quote:
-I would rather focus the death knight on dark magic instead of summoning, because otherwise he needs spellpower and becomes to close to a necromancer. Generally dark and light are easier to handle for might classes. It also makes him opposite of living knights.
I think that's a good point. Also, from the scheme I have made, not a single class has Dark as one of his primaries, so I'm all in for that. The main reason I put Summoning was because of Raise Dead, but I agree the other way round makes more sense. We could even up Summoning for Necromancer and lower Dark a bit.
Quote:
-It makes more sense to me if an alchemist is defensive instead of offensive. I agree on war machines, logistics etc.
No objection, really. Generally, I think Attack has the more funny perks, but on the other hand, easy access to Preparation might be funny with Razzak, and most important for me is Artifical Glory + Mark Of Golems being easily accessible.
Quote:
-I agree logitics+attack are top skills for dungeon might hero, but destructive needs to be in the 15% zone anyway. irresistable + Empowered spells + elemental chains will always make it a top priority. To make a distinction we can make the magic class a total attack noob + focus on both summoning and destructive and maybe slight defense.
I don't agree with Destructive being 15 % for might class, but I'd go with 10 % for might, and then ditch Summoning and up Light a bit for him. And then I agree we could ditch Attack for Warlock, as he is über magic.
I'll try to make a version 2.0 which includes both old classes (with suggested changes) and new classes.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted March 10, 2009 08:26 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I agree, actually. That would mean a complete restructuring of all the classes, however, including the current.
Yes, that's my intention, maybe I haven't been clear enough about the fact that people are allowed to think 'freely'. The existing classes will be edited just as much as the new ones because only then you can achieve perfect variation.
Classes, Heroes, specializations, starting skills can all be disconnected from each other (and reconnected differently). For the individual Heroes I will make decisions exclusively on the portraits not the specializations.
All the skill probs can easily be changed at any moment. They are not definitive earlier then after extensive beta testing.
Quote:
I don't agree with Destructive being 15 % for might class, but I'd go with 10 % for might, and then ditch Summoning and up Light a bit for him. And then I agree we could ditch Attack for Warlock, as he is über magic.
True, but you have to think as a 'competitive player', The dungeon faction is the only 'really problematic' faction when it comes to creating might and magic classes. Because the unique skill, especially the uber-popular empowered spells and elemental chains perks cannot live without destructive magic. If one class has 10% destructive and the other 15% destructive, they would be unbalanced from a competitive standpoint, because any dungeon class/player needs destructive as fast as possible. I have been puzzling with primary stats for dungeon and finally came up with this:
Dungeon might: 45% A, 10% D, 30% SP, 15% K
Dungeon magic: 10% A, 15% D, 45% SP, 30% K
Quote:
If we want to raise these chances (say: 15 % for Light and 10 % for Dark for Cleric (we should call him Inquisitor, really, with that much Dark Magic!))
My intention is still to go for a renegade class, because both counterstrike and dark magic fits them well. Lore-wise they are exactly how Nival designed the Haven faction and we have all the portraits and models ready!
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted March 10, 2009 09:17 PM |
|
|
Moving right along, here is version 2.0 of the skill progression.
I have several comments to tie to this, but that will not be tonight - so I'll just leave it at an overview at first and then return to elaborate to objections. General approach has been to specialize a bit further: Might heroes focus more specifically on might, and Magic heroes more on magic.
Along the way I settled on doing a bit more progressive chancing - 2 % - 4 % - 6 % - 8 % - 10 % - 15 %. It's easy to revert back to standard, but I'll explain reasons for this later.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted March 11, 2009 12:05 AM |
|
|
LOL, I just adjusted all my tables to follow the nival system and now you come with a 4-6% system. I mentioned 4-6 only for the shatter skills, but it doesn't really matter. We can actually test both systems later.
I'm currently working on a plan for the skills.xdb because that work has to be done first. I'm really wondering about Nival's intentions with the skill system. For TOE 3.0 they decided to make pretty much every skill available for every faction, but instead of making a good universal skillwheel they created an incredible complex web of connection which forces the player to constantly have documentation or in game skillwheels at hand. I'm currently designing a new universal skillwheel were all skills follow mostly the same pad for all factions,
because otherwise the job of rebuilding the skills.xdb becomes a disaster. After the skills.xdb is finished I can remove the skills we don't like for certain classes.
|
|
SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted March 11, 2009 12:34 AM |
|
Edited by SimonaK at 00:37, 11 Mar 2009.
|
I made a programme which is able to re-write all of Skill.xdb
My game is actually with a mod (high-modified Skill.xdb) allowing of any heroes of any faction
to learn any racial competences of others factions. (Knights can learn Necromany, Elves can learn Irresistible Magic, etc etc)
Shatter skills may be learned by non-stronghold heroes (all perks working)
Magic skills may be learned by stronghold heroes (they cannot cast spells but can benefit of all others perks from these skills)
I destroyed Barbarian Learning and Barbarian Sorcery competences and their perks. They are really useless.
Stronghold heroes are able to learn original Learning and original Sorcery. Obviously, Skills.xdb and HeroClass must be
modified for a perfect working. Perks's Learning and Perks's Sorcery for Strongold are transfered into original same competences
and can be learned anyway just by Strongold.
Other Exemple:
HERO_SKILL_BARBARIAN_MENTORING is the same thing of HERO_SKILL_MENTORING.
Stronghold Heroes can learn and use HERO_SKILL_MENTORING. Then I disconnected HERO_SKILL_BARBARIAN_MENTORING.
same facts with all of others barbarian stuff.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted March 11, 2009 07:15 AM |
|
|
Quote:
LOL, I just adjusted all my tables to follow the nival system and now you come with a 4-6% system. I mentioned 4-6 only for the shatter skills, but it doesn't really matter. We can actually test both systems later.
I'm currently working on a plan for the skills.xdb because that work has to be done first. I'm really wondering about Nival's intentions with the skill system. For TOE 3.0 they decided to make pretty much every skill available for every faction, but instead of making a good universal skillwheel they created an incredible complex web of connection which forces the player to constantly have documentation or in game skillwheels at hand. I'm currently designing a new universal skillwheel were all skills follow mostly the same pad for all factions,
because otherwise the job of rebuilding the skills.xdb becomes a disaster. After the skills.xdb is finished I can remove the skills we don't like for certain classes.
Like I said previously in the thread, I actually HAVE already made a layout for a common skill wheel which will form the basis of ALL factions. I deffinitely think that's the way to go with this mod, otherwise things will simply be too complex. Also, the power of this structure is that for all skills, each branch has exactly three perks, so that there is no double-branching like the current system.
Subsequently, we can add class-relevant skills to replace certain skills for each faction, plus add individuel secondary requirements (i.e. Swift Mind requires Scouting for some factions but not all).
COMMON SKILL WHEEL
SomanaK > About your proposal: I'm not in favor of making ALL skills available to all factions - some of them simply doesn't make sense. Why would any faction want to learn Necromancy, and it would eliminate the whole purpose of this mod, to have MORE different heroes!
However, we can return to the discussion of some common ULTIMATE perks - like I've mentioned, Nature's Luck, Absolute Protection, Unstoppable Charge (w. Retaliation Strike perk), Arcane Omniscience, and Howl Of Terror (w. Banshee Howl) can all be moved to common skills along with the mentioned basic skills.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted March 11, 2009 11:48 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Like I said previously in the thread, I actually HAVE already made a layout for a common skill wheel which will form the basis of ALL factions. I deffinitely think that's the way to go with this mod, otherwise things will simply be too complex. Also, the power of this structure is that for all skills, each branch has exactly three perks, so that there is no double-branching like the current system.
Exactly my idea, but I didn't know you already had this so I created an universal skillwheel myself. I see many similarities, although i also implemented the faction specific skills and I didn't went for the 3x3 system. I see many good ideas in yours and will try to make some fusion-skillwheel. I have uploaded my xls with both the classes and my skillwheel, I hope you take a moment to review:
http://www.mediafire.com/?tbewzmnammq
If you have many comment and excel you can also add comments in the sheet and reupload.
Another question: can you upload a package with all the icon files for heroes and skills you seem to use to make these nice schemes?
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted March 11, 2009 11:54 AM |
|
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted March 11, 2009 12:00 PM |
|
|
Will review your scheme later.
Quote:
Another question: can you upload a package with all the icon files for heroes and skills you seem to use to make these nice schemes?
The easiest thing is to take them from the Heroes 5 section on Age Of Heroes - that's what I do. Go to secondary skills and copy or save icons.
Oh, and one other note: The 3x3 system is of big importance to me, as I'm increasingly annoyed with these branched skills where your right option simply refuses to show up. Worst example is in Logistics, where sometimes you have 3 or 4 alternative paths, and it often takes more than 10 levels before the right one shows up.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted March 11, 2009 01:34 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Oh, and one other note: The 3x3 system is of big importance to me, as I'm increasingly annoyed with these branched skills where your right option simply refuses to show up. Worst example is in Logistics, where sometimes you have 3 or 4 alternative paths, and it often takes more than 10 levels before the right one shows up.
Yes, I'm annoyed by it to. I have just greatly adjusted my skillwheel. So forget the old upload. I made it 3x3 as much as possible I also implemented missing skills, faction specific skills and many ideas from yours. I named it Fusion skillwheel. It's in a new sheet in the xls file. Here is the link:
Fusion skillwheel
I will stick with the original base-skills for now, that is probably the largest difference between the fusion skillwheel and yours at the moment
I also found some problems with your skillwheel:
-Offensive and defensive formation cannot be used by other factions, I tested this in the past.
-Battle commander not useful for other factions too
-Luck of the Barb + dwarven luck seems Overpowered
-Aura of Swiftness should be in inner circle (balance)
-distract and counterspell in one build-up also OP
Have you tested boneward to work with other factions?
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted March 11, 2009 08:32 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Oh, and one other note: The 3x3 system is of big importance to me, as I'm increasingly annoyed with these branched skills where your right option simply refuses to show up. Worst example is in Logistics, where sometimes you have 3 or 4 alternative paths, and it often takes more than 10 levels before the right one shows up.
Yes, I'm annoyed by it to. I have just greatly adjusted my skillwheel. So forget the old upload. I made it 3x3 as much as possible I also implemented missing skills, faction specific skills and many ideas from yours. I named it Fusion skillwheel. It's in a new sheet in the xls file. Here is the link:
Fusion skillwheel
Sucks ... I cannot get files off MediaFire, need I have an account for that ... Can I get you to e-mail me the spreadsheet? I'll leave you a HCM with my e-mail.
Quote:
I will stick with the original base-skills for now, that is probably the largest difference between the fusion skillwheel and yours at the moment
That's a detail we can discuss later. I'm not adamant on most of them, but Navigation deffinitely needs to go away as a primary perk because it sucks bigtime 99/100 games. If you really need it, make it be a final, so that it doesn't block off others.
Same goes for the like of Estates and Mana Regeneration, but I'm not adamant on those.
Quote:
I also found some problems with your skillwheel:
-Offensive and defensive formation cannot be used by other factions, I tested this in the past.
I seem to recall there was a discussion about that. I think I got Elvin to test it, and he seemed to conclude that as long as the Hero and the Units were same faction it worked - if that's not the case, out they go from the common skill wheel.
Btw. notice that I moved several perks around between skills. Swift Mind went to Enlightenment, and Retribution went to Leadership (notice the new icon, quite proud of that  ). Some of those could get back, but if we through away Offensive and Deffensive formation, my suggestions would put in Weakening Strike (Attack) and Retaliation Strike (defence).
Quote:
-Battle commander not useful for other factions too
I know the War Dancer bonus will be a bit random, but at least the +2 Attack will count, and since there's no simple +2 Attack perk I figured ... Also, Necropolis and Dungeon will be able to sacrifice the War Dancers, and come to think of it, wouldn't Inferno and Stronghold be able to do that also?
Quote:
-Luck of the Barb + dwarven luck seems Overpowered
Agreed. I was a bit at a loss with the Luck perks, couldn't find a perfect way to combine them. My initial approach would be that Luck Of Barbarian also required Defence > Protection - it will be quite powerfull, but more difficult to obtain, so that's the gain from specialization.
Quote:
-Aura of Swiftness should be in inner circle (balance)
Maybe, but again, do you have a more suitable suggestion for third basic skill? Estates is just so ... meh ... plus I actually like having Recruitement and Estates in the same branch ... smells a bit of old Nobility.
Quote:
-distract and counterspell in one build-up also OP
Have you tested boneward to work with other factions?
Yes, you might be right. Well, we can just split them in two different branches, that's fine for me.
As for Boneward, I have not tested. Problem is there are only 10 Sorcery perks in the whole game, the last one being Soulfire. But come to think of it, if Boneward does NOT work (I would probably rename it), we COULD add Soulfire, and maybe even boost it to something useful. Possible.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted March 11, 2009 09:53 PM |
|
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted March 11, 2009 10:16 PM |
|
|
Quote:
That's a detail we can discuss later. I'm not adamant on most of them, but Navigation deffinitely needs to go away as a primary perk because it sucks bigtime 99/100 games. If you really need it, make it be a final, so that it doesn't block off others.
Same goes for the like of Estates and Mana Regeneration, but I'm not adamant on those.
logistics and leadership are certainly the most puzzling skills
I agree Navigation sucks 99/100 games, but if you are on a water map you need the ability immediately otherwise it doesn't make sense. Same applies to estates (+few gold in late game). So the only other option is remove them from the game. These skills are 100% useless in the inner circle.
Concerning logistics: as far as I know familiar ground only works for grass (=haven and sylvan)
Quote:
Btw. notice that I moved several perks around between skills. Swift Mind went to Enlightenment, and Retribution went to Leadership (notice the new icon, quite proud of that ). Some of those could get back, but if we through away Offensive and Deffensive formation, my suggestions would put in Weakening Strike (Attack) and Retaliation Strike (defence).
Yes this was a very good idea and I implemented most of them, but not retribution because it is needed in attack if i'm right about formations. can you lead me to the thread were elvin posted his findings?
My current approach is to fit every individual skillwheel for every class in a 3x3 square, if there is no space a faction-specific skill is preferred over a common skill.
Quote:
I know the War Dancer bonus will be a bit random, but at least the +2 Attack will count, and since there's no simple +2 Attack perk I figured ... Also, Necropolis and Dungeon will be able to sacrifice the War Dancers, and come to think of it, wouldn't Inferno and Stronghold be able to do that also?
My approach is always to build glitch free+Ashan proof mods, and I'm horrified by the idea of other factions receiving war dancers . If there is a way to block the war dancers then I would be OK.
Quote:
Maybe, but again, do you have a more suitable suggestion for third basic skill? Estates is just so ... meh ... plus I actually like having Recruitement and Estates in the same branch ... smells a bit of old Nobility.
I get the idea you are a little too much focused on getting your favourite skills in a row (not only talking about leadership). Of course everyone would prefer to have divine guidance+aura+empathy but I think Nivals approach is to place both weak skills and powerful skills in the branches so you have to swallow the weak ones to get the powerful ones!. You can also be sure no one would ever pick the other branches if one is uberpowerful. Following that philosophy your idea putting swift mind after arcane intuition was excellent!
Quote:
Agreed. I was a bit at a loss with the Luck perks, couldn't find a perfect way to combine them. My initial approach would be that Luck Of Barbarian also required Defence > Protection - it will be quite powerfull, but more difficult to obtain, so that's the gain from specialization.
My current idea is to make one available for might and the other for magic classes.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted March 12, 2009 03:30 AM |
|
Edited by SimonaK at 03:55, 12 Mar 2009.
|
Quote:
HC refuses me to edit my post, I wanted to add this:
Quote:
I made a programme which is able to re-write all of Skill.xdb
Any chance you upload it?
it's useless to upload it because the code is too specialized to create the corresponding mod.
but you can download the Skills.xdb and HeroClass.xdb resulting of.
In the Skills.xdb
you will be able to see that
- No more prerequisistes is required to learn each perk.
- Swift Mind becomes a Learning's perk
- Know Your Ennemy becomes a Avenger's perk
- Barbarian Learning competence is removed
- Shout competence is removed
- All Barbarian Learning's perks becomes Learning Perk
- All Shout's perks becomes Sorcery's perk
- Each class can learn any racial competences
- Unique way to each class to get racial ultime competence
- Majority of perks becomes available for all classes
(Ex: Necromancers can get Warlock's Luck, All factions can get Luck Of The Barbarian, etc etc etc)
I'm sure I forget some stuffs...
In the HeroClass.xdb
you will be able to see that
- All factions can get Shatter Skills.
- Stronghold class can get Magic Skills, Sorcery and original Learning
- 25% for each class to learn in each attribute when leveling up.
- All Classes are same class
- etc etc
I never edited files with my hand.
http://www.speedyshare.com/634756204.html
Perhaps that can help you to understand some mechanic things.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted March 12, 2009 08:20 AM |
|
|
Quote:
- All Classes are same class
Sorry, but that would completely eliminate the purpose of this mod, so what you did is a complete no-go in this context.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
