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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted March 29, 2009 11:07 PM |
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Saving Throws
I'm making this post to introduce a new feat to Heroes of Might and Magic 6: Saving Throws.
The Basic Idea
Every Creature has a certain amount of Saving Throws (which is included in their statts). Each Saving Throw Point counts as a 1% chance to change the effect of a spell. This effect can be Mastery Reduction, Partial damage reduction or complete Negation.
Types of Saving Throws
There are three different Saving throws: Will, Reflex and Fortitude. Will counter mind spells and similar effects, like Confusion, Frenzy, Hypnosis, Seduction, etc.. Will Saves are typically high for casters. Reflex Saves will allow the creature to dodge or partially evade Direct damage, like those from Eldrich Arrow, Ice Bolt, and similar things. High Reflex Saves are typical for fast units like Blade Dancers or Nightmares. Fortitude saves negate or minimize damage and effects that cannot be evaded, like those of Poison, Suffering or Cripling Wound. Fortitude saves are high for creatures with a high Constitution, like Treants or Magma Dragons.
Spellpower to Counter Saving Throws
Saving Throws can be countered by Heroes with High Spellpower. Each point of spellpower multiplicatively decreases they spell target's Saving throws. Therefore a Necromancer's Confusion has a higher chance of succeeding than a Demon Lord's Confusion. Sorrow also decreases the Targets Saving Throws, at -1 for None and Basic Mastery and -2 for Advanced and Expert Mastery.
Replacing Resistance
The Saving Throw system will replace Magic Resistance (not magic Immunity or Magic Proofness of any kind). If we would apply that to Heroes 5, the Magic Resistance Perk would be replaced by another perk (called Chance??) that increases all allied Saving Throws by 2. Resistance can only be gotten by Artefacts, or through the Dwarven Luck Perk (which grants 15% Magic Resistance, independently working from Saving Throws and the like).
Saving Throws of H5 Creatures
If I would apply the Saving Throw system to H5 Creatures, I would distribute them as following:
Peasant: Will: 1 Reflex: 1 Fortitude: 1 (Weak creature, low STs)
Conscript: 1 - 1 - 2
Brute: 1 - 1 - 2
Archer: 2 - 4 - 2 (Extra Reflex for Shooters)
Marksman: 2 - 6 - 2
Crossbowman: 2 - 4 - 4
Footman: 2 - 1 - 5
Squire: 3 - 1 - 6
Vindicator: 3 - 1 - 6
Griffin: 1-8-5
Imperial Griffin: 3-8-8
Battle Griffin: 3-8-8
Priest: 9-3-6 (Caster/tank, so high Fortitude and Will)
Inquisitior: 10-3-7
Zealot: 9-3-8
Cavalier: 5-4-7
Paladin: 7-4-8
Champion: 5-5-9
Angel: 12-8-6
Archangel: 12-8-6
Seraph: 12-8-6
Imp: 1-3-1
Familiar: 1-3-1
Vermin: 1-3-1
Horned Demon: 1-1-3
Horned Overseer: 2-2-5
Horned Leaper: 2-2-5
Hellhound: 1-4-2
Cerberus: 1-4-4
Firehound: 1-4-4
Succubus: 4-2-1
Succubus Misstress: 5-4-2
Succubus Seducer: 6-3-2
Hell Charger: 2-6-3
Nightmare: 2-8-3
Hell Stallion: 2-8-3
Pit Fiend: 6-2-8
Pit Lord: 8-2-8
Pit Spawn: 6-3-9
Devil: 5-5-10
Archdevil: 6-8-13
Archdemon: 6-8-13
etc...
And every creature get's an unique Will-Reflex-Fortitude Distribution, depending on the creature's stats, function and abilities.
If he then apply Saving throws to the Spells (note that Buff do not use Saving throws - why would anyone want to resist them anyway?)
Spells
Eldritch Arrow: Reflex save Lowers Mastery b 2
Stone Spikes: Reflex Halves Damage
Ice Bolt: Reflex Halves damage. Fortitude save nullifies Freeze
Lightning Bolt: Reflex Lowers Mastery by 2 and nullifies Stunning Effects
Fireball: Fortitude Lowers Mastery by 2 and nullifies Armor damaging effect
Firewall: Reflex Negates
Circle of Winter: Reflex Halves damage. Fortitude save nullifies Freeze
Chain Lightning: First Target: Reflex Halves - Other Targets: Reflex Negates
Meteor Shower: Fortitude Lowers Mastery by 2
Armaggeddon: Reflex Negates
Implosion: Fortitude Halves
Deep Freeze: Fortitude halves
Weakness: Will Negates
Slow: Reflex Negates
Sorrow: Will Negates
Vulnerability: Fortitude Halves effect
Decay: Fortitude negates (one save per round)
Confusion: Will Lowers Mastery by 2
Suffering: Fortitude Negates
Frenzy: Will Negates
Blind: Will halves duration
Puppet Master: Will Halves duration
Curse of the Netherworld: Fortitude Halves
Cleansing: Will Negates (enemy only)
Divine Vengeance: Fortitude halves damage
Word of Light: Fortitude Halves
Fire Trap: Reflex Negates
Fist of Wrath: Reflex Halves
Wasp Swarm: Reflex Negates Initiative Decreasement
Arcane Crystal: Reflex Negates
Blade Barrier: Reflex Negates
EarthQuake (through Tremors): Fortitude Negates
Effects:
Poison/Venom: Fortitude Negates (1 save per round)
Seduce: Will halves duration
Crystal/Acid/Fire Breath: Reflex Negates
Scorching Aura: Fortutude Halves
Storm Strike: Reflex Negates
Flamestrike: Reflex Negates
Flame Wave: Reflex Negates
Defile Magic: Will Negates
Traps: Reflex Negates
Cripling Wound: Fortitude Negates
Harpoon Strike: Reflex Negates
Bear Roar/Fear: Will Negates
Fright Aura: Will Negates (1 save per round)
Festering Aura: Fortitude Negates (1 save per round)
Mark of Fire: Will Negates
Storm Bolt: Reflex Negates
Liquid Flame Breath: Reflex Negates
Force Arrow/Warding Arrows: Fortitude Negates
Entangling Roots: Reflex Negates
Weakening Strike: Fortitude Negates
Death Wail: Will Halves Damage
Death Stare: Will Negates
Explosion: Reflex Halves
Chain Shot: Reflex Negates and breaks the chain
Battle Dive: Reflex Halves
Sabotage: Fortitude Negates
Call Lightning/Stormcaller: Reflex Negates (one save per round)
Lizard bite: Reflex Negates
Deadly Strike: Will Negates
Other abilities are unaffected by Saving throws
So, I think I've explained my points well enough. So what do you think of this idea?
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted March 29, 2009 11:16 PM |
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so against all odds that lone peasant managed to dodge my 72 spellpower implosion?
Sweet idea but i bet it can gt somewhat infuriating when the above happens to you.
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Protection From Everything.
dota
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted March 29, 2009 11:21 PM |
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Quote:
so against all odds that lone peasant managed to dodge my 72spellpower implosion?
Implosion wouldn't be dodgeable
Quote:
Sweet idea but i bet it can gt somewhat infuriating when the above happens to you
I know, it's hard to get a good balance between Saving Throws, to make them neither under-, nor overpowered. I recon that about 7-8% would be balanced enough, and, of course, it's (a lot) lower for Weak creatures and higher Stronger Creatures. It certainly needs refinement though, but balance has never been my strongest point.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Multivision
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 30, 2009 01:29 AM |
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Saving throws aren't a bad idea, but, you would really need to expand the amount of stats on an army and you need to balance it around that. I like the idea frankly. But, it's a lot of work.
Just an idea, perhaps saving throws should be used to fight against another armies spells and abilities and not hero spells? I think this would be something more unique in the game.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted March 30, 2009 03:18 AM |
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Like the idea, but I'd limit it to a creature ability (which could be shared by more creatures, but not all).
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted March 30, 2009 11:13 AM |
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@ Multivision
Quote:
Saving throws aren't a bad idea, but, you would really need to expand the amount of stats on an army and you need to balance it around that. I like the idea frankly. But, it's a lot of work.
Yeah, but the idea was the every creature has a small chance of evading or minimizing enemy spells and abilities. I need to refin it though.
Quote:
Just an idea, perhaps saving throws should be used to fight against another armies spells and abilities and not hero spells? I think this would be something more unique in the game.
So that they cannot evade spells from Heroes? Well, I'm not really in favour to that.
Quote:
Like the idea, but I'd limit it to a creature ability (which could be shared by more creatures, but not all).
That's not a bad idea at all. So you mean that each army has a number of Saving Throw points, equal to all unit in it? Not a bad idea, but that would make sure that a Pesant has the same chance of saving than a Black Dragon - and it would make a lot more sence to me, if stronger creatures have higher chances. STs that depend on Heroes is not a bad idea though.
The whole thread is more a testcase of my idea, since I would like to incorporate it in my own (new) H6 vision I'm developping atm. There would be a lot more spells there (as well as spells that can only be cast by certain creatures and not be heroes, like in h4).
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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isabel
Known Hero
Dragonblessed
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posted March 30, 2009 12:30 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
so against all odds that lone peasant managed to dodge my 72spellpower implosion?
Implosion wouldn't be dodgeable
But halving damage is already too powerful, I suggest lowering the effect, instead of percentage reduction (50% damage), absolute reduction should be done (-5 SP etc.).
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted March 30, 2009 02:19 PM |
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Like lowering the mastery?
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted March 30, 2009 08:11 PM |
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No Lex, I meant that there's an ability that lets a creature use "Saving Throws", and this ability could be used by more than one creature (like Cleave is for Vindicator + Executioner, etc)
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LordGodric
Known Hero
The Griffin Rider
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posted March 30, 2009 08:20 PM |
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Very good ideia!
@a little off topic:
iknow that you want just to give an exemple, but...
griffins should have high will too! they are proud, brave and loyal! think that saves may be: WILL the highest, REF almost high as will, FOR a medium value, but the lowest to the griffin...
*griffins are - in most of games, books, legends, etc - irrational creatures, but they are allways very determined, and, in d&d, will, if I remember, is modified by wisdon (or charisma), no by int, isnt is?
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted March 30, 2009 08:33 PM |
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Yes, in D&D:
Will - Wisdom
Reflex - Dexterity
Fortitude - Constitution/Stamina
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Multivision
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 31, 2009 02:23 AM |
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Perhaps you should make it a secondary skill that allows you to make a certain amount of saving throws on each army per turn.
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