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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Creature Ranking System
Thread: Creature Ranking System
VrabelMix
VrabelMix


Hired Hero
Got town portal?
posted March 31, 2009 12:02 AM

Creature Ranking System

CREATURE STATISTIC RANKING CHARTS

Back in the day I had put one of these together as a paper copy, ranking the creatures based solely on their statistics. I lost the copy and just recently decided to revisit this and put a new system together.  This system is similar to PER or player efficiency rating for the NBA.

GUIDELINES:

1.)  No nuetral creatures were considered in these comparisons

2.)  All creature statistics come from the upgraded version

3.)  Creature growth was based on having the Castle built at each particular town

4.)  The creatures are only compared to other creatures of the same LEVEL from each particular town (therefore it is Ranking creatures according to level)

5.)  The numbers for everything are based on percentages.  These percentages are derived from the highest statistic from a particular cataegory.

ie:  Skeleton warriors have a base attack of 6 - 6 is the highest attack among any of the 1st level troops, therefore the basic formula takes 6 as the denominator and uses it to divide every creatures attack stat by 6 and then multiplies by 100

aat first i used rankings 1-9 for the stats and then added up at the end to see which creatures had the most points.  This didnt work because for the growth of all 7th level creatures is +2 except for the Phoenix which is +4 so I felt the percentage based on the best would be the only way to go about this.  

After getting the percentages for creatures based solely on a particular category (speed, defence, HP) I avereaged the stats for the creatures across the board and got an average.

SPECIAL NOTES:

1.)  The formula for cost is reversed (the lowest costing creature price is the nemerator for all cases)

2.)  7th Level troop cost that include resources are calculated as 1000 gold per resources (that is the base trading price for 1 marketplace)

3.)  Most importantly I tried to incorporate the creature special abilities into the rankings... As there is no way of calculating a percetage, I simply ranked 1-9 (9 being best) and added bonus points at the end of my formula to the calculated percentages.  This was very difficult because it is VERY subjective.

I welcome any comments on how to improve the specialty points that are included in this (I couldn't think of a better way)

ps.  I can use these tables to quickly calculate a total for each category for every particular town ie. I can add up all the attack skill for fortress creatures and compare vs. all the defense skill of rampart

pps.  I averaged all the creatures together at the end from each town and came up with an overall creature ranking. (I'm not to fond of this as the percentages per level may throw the overall calculation off)










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SwampLord
SwampLord


Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
posted April 01, 2009 11:00 PM
Edited by SwampLord at 23:01, 01 Apr 2009.

This is a very good project; I'm not sure if it portrays a totally accurate picture of relative power (minotaurs are constantly good while Mighty Moos, Hydras, Magic Elems and things like that are more situational) but it's an impressive project.

EDIT: Yeah, after reviewing I would nitpick on a few points (like Gorgon Gaze only being worth 3 points) but still major kudos for such an undertaking.
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They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!

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VrabelMix
VrabelMix


Hired Hero
Got town portal?
posted April 01, 2009 11:20 PM

Thanks Swampy

I need some more input on the specialties ranking, possibly a pole because the fact of the matter is that everyone will rank abilities differently yet they have a large impact on overall creature usefullness.... The cool thing is that regardless of how they are ranked when the average for each town is taken, they are all essentially very close.

I guess that when I originally did this it was to see if any one town's creatures outweigh the others.
Conclusion:
1) 3DO did a kick *** job balancing the towns
2) the creatures that are typically rated high among HC users are the ones typically score the highest when numbers are applied

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SwampLord
SwampLord


Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
posted April 02, 2009 03:00 AM
Edited by SwampLord at 03:03, 02 Apr 2009.

The only specials I would advise revising are the MG's and maybe the Champion's; Death Gaze is far better than say the  minnie's morale boost and is, I would venture, flat out the best level 5 ability although it is situational.

I'd also rank Jousting above several activated Level 6 bonuses like Blind and Poison because Poison sucks (), Blind only has a chance of triggering and Jousting will always happen and give you a very nice damage boost.

The level 7 specials might deserve a closer look IMO, especially given the double-edged sword nature of magic immunities and the sheer power of the Behemoth special but that's going to be a long and intricate debate. Again, major, major kudos for this effort; I would recommend for a QP but that's no longer an option lol, can I recommend for less floodprotect?

Excellent work.

Town balance gets a little wonky once the potential growth rates of Skellies and Conflux's low tiers extreme power/Phoenix growth come into play but generally all of the other towns seem to be able to win against any other town when handled by a decent player, which is a sign of at least decent balance.
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They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!

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dianemox
dianemox


Hired Hero
posted April 05, 2009 09:10 PM

Its good project,but it making me really scary - My beloved Grand elfs are weaker than cerberus (whitch isn't so good for me), And lot of weaker than dragonflies? I won pretty lot of battles just because these superior shooters.

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VrabelMix
VrabelMix


Hired Hero
Got town portal?
posted April 05, 2009 11:11 PM

I guess you have to try and look at these rankings a little differently than just attack and defense in a battle situation. The charts show overall efficiency, incorporating all stats including things as cost, growth, speed...  Look at it this way, you have 4 titans and your opponent has 5, would you rather have dragonflyies on your squad who could reach opponents titans before they get a shot off, or grand elfs that would allow his titan to hit your titans 1st? (assuming his titans went 1st)

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leslie
leslie

Tavern Dweller
posted April 06, 2009 08:40 AM

I dont think those lv7 creatures will cost that much even with resources count as 1000g per.
some special abilities are the way more better than you ranked.
for lv3: wraith in very early game the regen is really usefull if u just take like 1 or 2 wraith with ur hero and use death ripple. I dont know if orc chiefain can shoot twice or not.
for lv5: gaze is terrific for early or mid game, especially for lv7 creatures.
for lv7: magic immune is useful for negative spells, but not that useful coz u cant use positive spells on them as well, so it is better to rank them a little bit lower while like archangle's resurrect(you leaked morale) should not only worth 2 I think.
but for those abilities are really hard to rank them coz its just depend on how u use them.
anywayz its a great job XD
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dianemox
dianemox


Hired Hero
posted April 06, 2009 10:40 AM
Edited by dianemox at 10:56, 06 Apr 2009.

I would take good magic hero and cast implosion on them. And by the way, it depends on army size,situation, and your hero. Even 50 cerberus couldn't help, if you have 30 elfs with Gelu, and you have some time for upgrading. And grifins, you cannot say they are better than grand elfs in large combat. (except it is siege. You forgot that magogs are shooters.

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VrabelMix
VrabelMix


Hired Hero
Got town portal?
posted April 06, 2009 03:04 PM
Edited by VrabelMix at 15:04, 06 Apr 2009.

@ Leslie:

My mistake, the #'s used are @ 5000 gold per resource (sorry about that) and I believe that its 5000 gold per resource (not wood or ore) for 1 marketplace exchange

IMHO Wraiths suck no matter how you look at it. (Necromancer is my favorite town to play with, just incase you think I'm hating on the wraiiths)

I believe that the blackies magic immunity is absolutely killer but maybe not the best specialty depending on situation. If I get enough responses, and people perhaps post their own specialty rankings per Lvl I could revise the table and we'll see if that makes a big difference.


@ dianemox:

How often do you get gelu in regular games with rules?? Yes the Grand Elves are kick *** but the dragon flies have a better growth rate and much better speed.
ie. after 5 weeks growth (damage calculations do not include hero stats) I have 80 dragon flies and you have 70 grand elves. I attack 1st with my 13 speed and reach elves in 1 turn I deal ~280 damage and take out 18 elves. Your 52 elves retaliate dishing out 104 damage (melee penalty) and take out 5 flies. you then take out another 5 on your turn and I retal and kill off another 16.......... so on and so on.

Now lets say you have tactics and set up dendriods and dwarves around your elves, now they shoot twice taking out my hydras one by one as your golds are torchin the rest of my swamp

Its all relative


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VrabelMix
VrabelMix


Hired Hero
Got town portal?
posted April 22, 2009 11:04 PM

Creature Special Abilities

So how would you guys rank the creatures specialty abilities 9-1 (9 being best or most points)??
Don't just drop #'s - try to give a little explanation of (for example) why magic immunity is not as good as resurrection....

Also, to keep it simple, I think only higher levels 5, 6 & 7 should be compared, as the lower levels are a little more clear cut and less debateable.

My level 5 reasons (these are different from my charts after more careful consideration ):

9) Power Lich: Death Cloud - attacks adjacent & does no damage to your own undead........Sick. Seige battles are always nice with ranged troops.

8) Mighty Moo: Death Gaze - ok ok we know even just 1 cow has a chance to take out an archy.

7) Master Genie: Random beneficial spellcaster - Who wouldn't want to cast 2 spells per round??

6) Dendriod Soldier: your dreadknights have just been rooted!!! - and they're durable - I suppose berserking them sucks for the ranger, but still, great ability.

5) T-Birds: Flyer & lightning bolt - When cast in high #'s they do some dirty damage. Once again, when trying to take a castle, flyers are the aggresors best friend.

4) Zealot: Shooter with no melee - does this need an explanation??

3) Pit Lords: Resurrects allies as demons - I suppose nice if you are farming.

2) Minotaur King: Good Morale - for THE BEST 5th level troop pretty weak special ability What good are they when you have no flyers or ranged troops and you are trying to take a castle with turrets?

1) Liquid hot magma (Dr. Evil): ummmm immune to a few spells and cast prot. from earth - booo

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SwampLord
SwampLord


Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
posted April 23, 2009 03:35 AM
Edited by SwampLord at 03:36, 23 Apr 2009.

Mighty Moo > Archy, in my opinion.

The Arch Lich can be somewhat negated by not clumping up your units. This'll avoid the ability entirely.

On the other hand, it's a LOT harder to keep the Mighty Moos from nuking your entire stack of Level 7s, and the Mighty Moos hurt a lot more than the Archliches.


The minotaur is probably near the top for actual power of Level 5s but its ability is kind of lackluster, I agree.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 23, 2009 06:13 AM

That can't be right. Rampart isn't the strongest town by creatures.
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted April 23, 2009 09:15 AM

Best ability by far is the mighty moo's death stare.
Second would be the life draining of the vamp lords.
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VrabelMix
VrabelMix


Hired Hero
Got town portal?
posted April 23, 2009 02:36 PM

Quote:
That can't be right. Rampart isn't the strongest town by creatures.


These charts are not based on strength... They are usefullness and mostly efficency. I have an idea on how to make them a little more accurate. I will rework the #'s using only factual numbers as well as add up the particular categories per town to see which race has the overall most HP, attack, cost etc. I cannot include the specialties  because everyone seems to have different opinions (although I think these are probably most important in deciding creature usefullness - who cares how many HP Vamp Lords have as long as they can regen themselves )

Thanks for the input so far, but again if i do get responses as to abilities that could possibly be included too


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mamgaeater
mamgaeater


Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
posted April 23, 2009 02:42 PM

i've just noticed that the archmages under abilities don't have the cost reduction for spells listed. am i missing something or...
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VrabelMix
VrabelMix


Hired Hero
Got town portal?
posted April 23, 2009 03:34 PM

Quote:
i've just noticed that the archmages under abilities don't have the cost reduction for spells listed. am i missing something or...


Not missing anything, I simply forgot to include
I believe they also recieve no penalty for shooting through castle walls. Reducing spell cost is actually pretty diesel (especially for might heroes with less knowlegde) shouldn't have overlooked that.
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VrabelMix
VrabelMix


Hired Hero
Got town portal?
posted April 23, 2009 08:53 PM
Edited by VrabelMix at 15:19, 24 Apr 2009.

Modified Rankings

After a little altering I am attaching an udated chart, this time without the specialties in calculation.

These are EFFICIENCY ratings and based on real numbers, therefore not up to much debate.
Also I summed up the seperate categories per town to compare the strengths and weaknesses of the units per town type.

The rank # at the far end of the chart per level ranks the creatures 1-9 (9 being best) after calculating the percentages. These are in turn added up for an overall creature efficiency rating (CER )

Please note that without abilities factored in, some of the creatures lose there worth in these ratings - which proves how important the specialties are. ie. Vamp lords in these charts are rated among the lowest.
Some levels are a little more accurate (take a look at the 5th & 7th lvl creatures, other than the phoenixs, the remaining rankings are quite accurate.

also note that the Necropolis has the lowest growth rate overall - hence the awesome power of necromancy

no creatures were harmed in the making of these charts




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