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| Thread: Creature Experience |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 27, 2009 12:00 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 00:02, 27 Apr 2009.
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I haven't played in a while, so I can't recall what levels gave which, but I don't remember ever getting a tier 7 unit above about level 3, which was a few levels before anything but stat bonusses came it (by that time my tier 1 units were like level 9), so it rarely mattered. I will agree with you on some points, such as some of the 'abilities' being quite overpowered, so I'd be happy to see the bonusses limited to stats.
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted April 27, 2009 11:31 AM |
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Edited by rubycus at 11:32, 27 Apr 2009.
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I agree with you Draco that Black dragons getting "unlimited retaliations" sounds very overpowered, but that was not my "bonus idea".
Let's take the Black Dragons as an example. If there were three possible levels (of course they start at level 1 with no bonuses) , I would suggest something like this:
Level 2: +3 defence
Level 3: + 5 attack
Level 4: + 1 (or perhaps 2) initiative.
How does that sound?
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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isabel
Known Hero
Dragonblessed
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posted April 27, 2009 12:30 PM |
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Quote:
Level 2: +3 defence
Level 3: + 5 attack
Level 4: + 1 (or perhaps 2) initiative.
How does that sound?
I suggest making the bonus as "percentage bonus" instead of absolute ones. +5 Attack is very strong for tier one but less significant for tier seven.
What about increasing all stats every level? Like:
Level 2 +8% attack, +5% defense and +5% initiative
Level 3 +10% attack, +7% defense and +7% initiative
Level 4 +12% attack, +9% defense and +9% initiative
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isabel
Known Hero
Dragonblessed
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posted April 27, 2009 12:36 PM |
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Black dragons getting Unlimited Retailiation? That's ridiculus.
This is what a Black dragon will get:
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 27, 2009 12:53 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 03:59, 22 Jan 2010.
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Thank you Isabel, Oh, and for reference Heroes hit level 6 before the dragons hit their first level, level 10 before the dragon's second, level 13 before the dragon's third and level 15 before the dragon's fourth, and that's assuming you get dragon from the beginning, so the OPness of creature experience is difficult for me to see.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 27, 2009 01:22 PM |
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Yeah, above just goes to show how good the creature XP system is for balance, because you could tweak a feature so that it in early game was not very powerful, but in late game became stronger. Also good for gameplay, because in late game, when your hero leveled slowly, creatures would start to gain rank, so you still had development.
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What will happen now?
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LordGodric
Known Hero
The Griffin Rider
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posted April 27, 2009 08:19 PM |
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Erhm... I think you guys misunderstood.
I never meant to promote any creatures to ones of a higher tier...
What I meant is simply giving them minor bonuses as a result of combat expertise, for example 1 initiative, 1 speed or 1 attack. It is not like you don't know what you're attacking... The bonuses won't be that great...  It is not very much, but it's always something, and for me, it'll make the game much more interresting.
And btw, i don't know what you guys thought I meant, but I didn't mean that creatures should be able to acheavelike 20 levels, like your hero... I was thinking of making creatures able to achieve 4 or 5 levels, which of course will be harder to achieve, as you play.
This is not a new way to make extremely powerful creatures. At least it was not meant that way. It was a suggestion to make combat experience a little like real and to add an effect which favours those creatures which are used in combat.
And remember, the bonuses in which I talk about will not be overpowered!
exactly,
if u have 10 grifins lvl 1 (living creature/flyer) and the enemy has 10 peasants lvl 5/4 - the max level - with bash, tax payer, magic resistence 20%, +1 initiative, enraged, cleave, +1 def, +1 attk and +1 moral premanently. Its obvious that almost with this bonuses the griffins will win, probabyly without loses!
this bonuses are not overpowered *and that was just an example! i dont want a peasant with magic resist and cleave!
of couse if you have 10 swordman/footman/squire/dude with a sword and shield lvl 0 and tha enemy have 10 ah... *taking a h5 example* wardancer lvl 5 with all abilities and bonuses, the wardancer have a little chance to win, be cause the diference of tiher between then is only 1! but you will never see a peasant defeating a huge-elder-ancient-red-dragon-of-might-from-drakness be cause the peasant is lvl 5 and the dragon is lvl 0. as u can see "a dog can blow down other dogs, but will never defeat a bear", even if the bear is young and the dog is 'experienced'.
*i think that is to few 3 levels... i think 5/6 is good, if you want to make that thing about the upgrade, because lvl 1-3 is basic creature 4-6 upg.
an new example here:
A wood elf/hunter of the name that you prefer for an elf with a long bow!
Lv: Bonus stats Skills
1(novice) - Living Creature, Ranged
2(skilled) +1 Initiative Double Shot
3(proven) +X Max Dmg Ranged Retaliation
can be upgraded to Sharpshooter *is example* or to Ranger
4(expert) +1 Atk NoRangePenalty or ForestProtector
5(veteran) +6 shots Precision or Warding Arrow
6(master) +1 Initiative Giant Slayer or Enemt of Fire
the 1-3 lvels will be easy to reach in early game, the 4th and 5th wil be harder and the 6th only will be reached in late game
Level XP requerid
1 -
2 800
3 2000
4 9500
5 18000
6 30000
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polaris
Promising
Known Hero
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posted May 11, 2009 11:49 PM |
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It's a tricky subject. The most important question is: does it make the game more fun or not. As with any topic that generates two-sided discussion, the answer isn't so easy.
One downside is that creature XP upgrades are prone to providing invisible or hard-to-see mods (as pointed out by Draco). This is a problem for people that view HOMM games fundamentally as strategy games that happen to also have RPG elements, but not a big deal to those who see HOMM games as RPG games that happen to have strategy elements. So it depends on what the intent is. Individual creature experience are also prone to death (from complexity) by a thousand cuts. How many levels does every creature have? How creatures are there? What is the optimal way to split a given stack that has experience points?
Of course the benefit is that it adds variety to creatures and lets them evolve as the game progresses (as pointed out by virtually everyone that supports the concept). It should be noted, however, that creatures are /also/ allowed to evolve and grow as the game progresses through upgrades purchased at the town. The only key difference is the upgrade mechanism- gold coins or experience points. There's another topic about consumable resources (eg. gold) versus non-consumable resources (eg. experience), and again I think it comes down to whether you see the RPG or strategy element as being more important. RPGs prefer resources that approximately mirror the amount of time you've spent on the game whereas strategy games prefer resources that approximately mirror your ability to create an advantage for yourself relative to other players, which is essentially the difference between gold and exp.
To get back to whether or not its fun, for me it would come down to whether or not creature experience increased gameplay options or not. Can't really know for sure without testing, but my suspicion is that it's unlikely to open up new options that cannot be done with some other simpler mechanism (such as upgrading creatures with gold, which is already in the game anyway) and Occam's Razor suggests we should go with the simplest.
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Draco
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 12, 2009 05:42 AM |
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Awesome post Polaris.
I guess thats what it comes down to, I treat Homm as a strategy game not an RPG game, in fact I would be nearly satisfied if they removed heroes completely from the game (I exaggerate) and building a strong army was all that mattered (Heroes 4)
Many others (most maybe) think of this game more as an RPG, everything needs to get better with time.
I guess one problem I have is the compound damage stack XP brings to the table. I don't like the idea of your hero giving you x amount of bonus attack (through attack skills and primary stats) and then also making your troops do x amount extra damage every hit (by their stack level).
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razor5
Famous Hero
Freezing...
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posted May 12, 2009 01:58 PM |
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Quote:
I guess one problem I have is the compound damage stack XP brings to the table. I don't like the idea of your hero giving you x amount of bonus attack (through attack skills and primary stats) and then also making your troops do x amount extra damage every hit (by their stack level).
Why? The damage could be gained from XP.The hero could give the bonus stats from the skill,if you are talking about this.And what's so bad with the x amount of damage with every hit? It's fun to see that for being more creatures in the same stack
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 12, 2009 02:10 PM |
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To get back to whether or not its fun, for me it would come down to whether or not creature experience increased gameplay options or not. Can't really know for sure without testing, but my suspicion is that it's unlikely to open up new options that cannot be done with some other simpler mechanism (such as upgrading creatures with gold, which is already in the game anyway) and Occam's Razor suggests we should go with the simplest.
I don't think Occam's Razor is really applicable here. It's not like it's a question of one or the other. Like you very correctly point out, more option provide more strategy, which is what a strategy game is all about.
Also, for me, the creature experience added to the gameplay of WoG simply because of the satisfaction of seing some sort of development. In late game, when your hero is more or less maxed out in skills and artifacts and your town(s) are fully developed, the game soon becomes repetitive. It's nice to have that satisfactory feeling to see your Black Dragons level up to gain receptivenes, just to give an example. Gives you something to aim for also, which is good.
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What will happen now?
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OliverFA
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 20, 2009 11:59 PM |
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I think this feature would really improve the gameplay experience in HOMM6 by adding more features and strategic deep. And the most important is that as WoG demonstrated, it can be kept simple enough.
Sure, WoG overdid it because the bonuses were huge. But this was just because WoG developers did not have the chance to test the feature and balance it. With the proper balance, it would be a killer feature, and provide HoMM6 with the evolution that it needs to be not just another HoMM.
Is good that the concerns appear. Concerns about creatures becoming too strong, or having no way of telling the strength of an enemy army before the battle. But I am sure there are ways to fix this problem.
My personal suggestion would be:
- Creatures stacks get the same experience as the hero that is commanding them. They gain levels at the same XP threshold that heroes.
- If you mix two stacks, the new stack XP is the sum of the previous stacks weighted by how many creatures where in each stack. Just like in WoG
(Example: Stack A 20 Creatures with 1000XP and Stack B 10 Creatures with 2000XP. New stack is [20*1000+10*2000]/30 = 1333 XP)
- This could result in the new stack "losing" levels. The new stack will need to gain new XP to regain the levels.
- Every time a creature stack gains a level, the player gets to pick between to creature skills. Possible creature skills are:
--> Common skills such as +1 defense, +1 hp, etc
--> Creature skills. For example, Vampires can learn Drain Life. Other creatures can learn No retaliation. Shooters can learn No range penalty, etc.
Those skills could be divided in basic/advanced/expert. For example, no range penalty would be 1/2 penalty without the skill, 1/3 basic, 1/4 advanced, no penalty with expert.
Very good idea. I hope this gets implemented.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted December 31, 2009 02:29 PM |
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Instead of over-complicating things by tieing experience to creature (which wog did), i would go with a simpler approach, tieing specific creature xp to a hero.
If hero uses unit A alot, that unit type gets experience and eventually levels up when used on that particular hero. Any new recruits joining that particular heros ranks would then inherit the XP/level bonuses.
In essence, experience decay (which happens in wog when you lose some experienced creatures and then replace them with new inexperienced ones) is too complicated to be fun. Aside from hard core players which are in minority, simplified model that works would be preferred imo.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted January 22, 2010 02:30 AM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 02:45, 22 Jan 2010.
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H5 already has this feature, it's called "upgrades".
In all seriousness though, it reminds me of putting a mini artifact on 1 gremlin, then adding 500 gremlins, and suddenly all having such an artifact. I don't like it, it's too silly... Unless you aim to keep those stacks seperated, which will make it a lot more difficult...
I reckon it would be nice to be far into end-game and see your black dragons finally levelling up again... Uh yeah, which ones ? The very first you bought ? Because I reckon it either gained more experience than the others in that stack, or already died... It's.. too complicated for my liking and far too prone to sillyness, like the mini-artifacts. It makes no sense to me..
Quote:
--> Creature skills. For example, Vampires can learn Drain Life. Other creatures can learn No retaliation. Shooters can learn No range penalty, etc.
Here's a good example! So your have 10 vampires and they kill some stuff, and gain experience. Huzzah! Vampires learned Drain life! Now you add 5 more vampires, and suddenly, they forgot Drain Life! It reminds me of pokemon, actually.
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