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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Countering Factions
Thread: Countering Factions This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Seddy
Seddy


Known Hero
Spinner of delicious cupcakes
posted June 10, 2009 09:00 PM

Countering Factions

As a newcomer to Heroes V, (only played III and IV before) I have often asked myself what would be the best strategy against a specific faction. Now that I have learned a little bit, I still think that there are times when you are not quite sure on how you should attack or defend against a specific faction. Example: "Inferno Hero attacking a Haven Hero in mid-game, what should I look out for and which creature should I attack first?"

Some simple strategy help would have been useful in that case (that's when I learned that when griffins are upgraded, they get Battle Dive ability, which does a lot of damage, slaughtered my poor Succubi)

Counter:
For Inferno: Gating troops around the ranged units (priest and archer) and then rush offensive before they wear down your troops with ranged attacks. Also, be on lookout for Imperial Griffins flying up and remember that squires shield allies, meaning they+adjacent allies don't take as much damage from ranged attacks, so aim your chain shot far away from them.

Now I am pretty new so my tips are probably general knowledge, but I think it would be excellent if some of the more advanced players could share their strategies for dealing with specific factions, what creatures, spells, abilities, etc, to look out for and be aware of. Because just looking at them in the info section doesn't always give you an idea of how dangerous something is. I have checked some strategies for specific factions but not too much on each factions weaknesses (except Necropolis, which many seem to think is too weak?)

Anyway, I personally would like a tip on how to handle Academy with Sylvan.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 10, 2009 11:44 PM
Edited by Elvin at 00:14, 11 Jun 2009.

I had been meaning to make one thread about this but I keep getting busy with other things. There is no perfect strategy, if you find one the opponent can then play something that can counter that all the same. But vs academy sylvan's best chance is an all out charge, that means tactics and aura of swifness to allow your fast units to attack the enemy lines the moment the combat begins.

Things to keep an eye out for.

- Arcanes that have 11 init will not play first against titans, gremlins and mages that have 10 init. Not only the starting initiative gives an atb bonus of 0-0.25 to each unit but academy can create initiative mini artifacts. Take it for granted, they will act first.

- Your dryads and dragons are deadly. Chances are academy will have stormwind so that means -2 speed and -20% initiative for them. Which is why I mentioned tactics and aura of swiftness.

- Academy may have every type of magic, their library gives more than light and summoning. So artifacts that protect against slow/frenzy, elemental spells, resistance arties may come in handy.

- For this reason and because academy has access to magic mirror that redirects single spells to random units your best bet is use light magic. If you are to use destructive at least do it through imbue and rain of arrows, casting them directly may mirror them on your own troops.

- Leadership/luck/attack is a good way to finish them as fast as possible. The longer they remain alive the worse it is for you. Consume artifacts can resurrect 4 of their stacks within one round which will be a disaster if your army is weakened and your mana over.

- Light not only boosts your army to kill enemy faster, it is a good way to protect yourself from dark or destructive. If you see them using mark of the wizard on a unit of yours you may want to cast immunity on it, if they mark one of their own units try to kill it as fast as possible.

I have posted many hints in the duel tactics thread, may want to check that also.



Edit:

A couple of recent replays to illustrate my points. In case you don't know where to put them it's in My Documents\My Games\Heroes of Might and Magic V - Tribes of the East\Profiles\Username\Replays.

Sylvan picked dark and was unable to counter academy's dark. A mass cleansing here could have helped a lot either to counter academy mass curses or steal their buffs.

Vs dwarves it shows what academy is capable of. They can keep delaying and delaying the game until you are totally helpless. Mass endurance, arcane armour, last stand AND regeneration makes it impossible for the opponent to kill the titans. My opponent gave up because his dwarves would die slowly.

Alternatively sylvan CAN use destructive but if used with a warmachine build his saboteurs can stop the ballista from acting. Academy can have magic protection mini arties but chances are they will be using defense/initiative or health. Why it is not a safe approach.

Just like I got icicle to boost my ice damage he may have an artifact that halves your spell effectiveness. He may have resistance. Your mana may not be enough. You cannot charge him AND use imbued meteors because you will likely hurt your troops. And the best reason, if wizard acts first and frenzies your druids you may remain with pathetic spellpower for the remainder of the combat. Similarly all his ranged units may act first and kill your power boosting druids.

See for yourself.
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joetheloser
joetheloser


Hired Hero
posted June 11, 2009 02:58 AM

Nice post Elvin, but that doesn't address the question of the original poster:  HAVEN vs. INFERNO mid-game  (we talking like week 3-4?)

I'll give my opinions for what they are worth.  First, you have to accept that some match-ups at certain points in the game are going to favor one town over the other.  In this case, inherrent slight edge goes to INFERNO in my opinion (catching HAVEN in that semi-awkward transition stage from having CROSSBOWMEN as bulk of army, to KNIGHTS as bulk of army).

General strategy (from HAVEN perspective):
Key skills:
Exp. War Machines (triple ballista + first aid tent)
Exp. Light magic (Master of Wrath)

Desirable Skills:
Exp. Attack (flamming arrows helpful here)
Leadership
Retaliation strike

Being a "mid-game" meeting, these should be your first priorities, more would be great of course, but this should be achievable most maps by week 3/4.

General Battle Tactics:
(1) Kill Seduccers first (either spot dive with griffs or war machines...your crossbowmen act to late to kill them).
(2) First spell cast should be "mass haste" (UNLESS ATB bar shows their hero coming up right behind yours -- expect a "mass slow".  If that is case, "Mass righteous might" would be good if ya have it...or retaliation strike)
(3) Don't get your troops killed by rushing them.  Haven has strong ranged strength (ballista + archers), let them come to you.  The gated troops are going to be more of an "annoyance" than anything at this point in game.  Which leads to -->
(4) Largely IGNORE the gated troops.  Don't even bother attacking them, unless necessary (which it shouldn't be)

More Specific Tactics:
(1) Gotta protect the crossbowmen.  And have to protect them in two ways: (a) from the seduccers (b) from being blocked by gated troops.  There are two strategies here:
FIRST, split the crossbowmen into two stacks of 50+.  
Advangage -
(a) 50 crossbowmen are sufficient to take out large chunks/full stacks of inferno creatures, by splitting them, you aren't are getting double the number of attacks (what good is 1500 damage from 120 crossbowmen shooting, when you only need 400 damage to kill stack).  
(b) Both can't be seducced, so you might only lose half and not all to an effective seduction.
(c) Less susceptible to puppt/frenzy.  
Disadvantages:  
(a) Difficult/impossible to block out gated creatures.

Second, stack all of the CROSSOWMEN together (should be in 100-120 range at this point).  
Advantage -
(a) Might be able to avoid being EFFECTIVELY "seducced" by the 25-30 seduccers
(b) Easier to block in, just make sure not to put any WEAK stacks beside them to be seducced for longer term.  
Disadvantage -
a bit of a gamble and very succeptable to a puppet/frenzy.

(2) At this point in game, you should reasonably have 6-7 knights.  I'd go with the "lay hands" kind for sure to remove curses.  ALTERNATIVELY:  if you want to gamble and guess where seduccers are going to be, the penetrating lancers can destroy the seduccers before they can act.  HOWEVER, doing this will probably cost you the troops as the opponent will gang attack them once they are close.  All-in-all, it's not a bad gamble to take...if you do this, I'd split the crossbowmen as they will be to busy attacking your knights to effectively gate in and block archers.

(3) INFERNO and DUNGEON are probably the only two factions you use VINDICATORS over SQUIRES...very little need to protect the crossbowmen from ranged attack.  Unfortunately they a little slow, but mass haste will help there.  Should be in good numbers at this point.

Missing a ton of "thoughts" here, but this post is way too long already.  If this helped at all...I'll analyze it for you from the INFERNO perspective in a later post.

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DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted June 11, 2009 03:01 AM

Actually, you should try to rush inferno, before he could summon reinforcements to kill you. you should also creat a small 'bunker' with ssquires, crossbowman and a large unite, so noone can reach your crossbowmen. You should consider sending your large unit (knight, angel or griffin) to join the battle to try and kill the inferno as fast as possible. I off course, am assuming you have tactics

I am quite a noob, so don't follow my advice too much.
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Elvin
Elvin


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Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 11, 2009 03:23 AM

Well he did ask for hints as sylvan vs academy, the first paragraph was an example.

Crossbowmen may still act before seducers but there is always divine guidance, haste will not let them act before enemy hero. I disagree about casting RM first, opponent will either frenzy you or cast mass suffering both painful possibilities. At this stage I'd be more concerned about warmachines, dark or even destructive than his army to stay rooted. Splitting crossbowmen means forcing more of your units to stay back and protect them when they could be more active.

Inferno is probably the only faction you shouldn't have vindicators against Easier for the opponent to kill you with them. In fact I rarely even build footmen before week 3, preferable to build angels and cavaliers during week 2 if possible. Having upgraded paladins is probably another rarity at the time unless you have skipped angels I suppose. Either way if we are talking week 3 it is not a matter of tactics but of insane creeping and rushing. It's week 4+ that it gets interesting.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted June 11, 2009 09:53 AM

In Haven vs Inferno, you can bet that the opponent has tactics... and I can almost guarantee that his Nightmares and Cerberi will act before your Paladins (never say never, though... I once has the luck of my Paladins charging before his Cerberi). Swift Mind + Divine Guidance, supported by Empathy, is a nice way to gain the upper hand. Mass Light Magic (Haste, Divine Strength, Cleansing, Righteous Might, Regeneration) is a must have.

Alternatively, block Inferno Troops with Stacks of 2 (Hasted) Griffins... WITH Last Stand and Expert Regeneration Enemy trops are very unlikely of getting through, as Inferno lacks Fliers. Crossbowmen should, supported by Inquisitors, take care of the Succubi and Pit Lords(Expert Haste is also a Help). Magical Immunity might also work against the Demon Lord's Confusion, Slow, Frenzy... the annoying spells.

You can replace Light by Dark if you wish, but Dark Spells are expensive, and Dark is a slower way to win Inferno. Speed still is at the essence.

Also, should you have Champions, and have the luck of acting before the enemy's Familiars/Cerberi/Firehounds, Don't hesitate to Charge them. Familiars and Hounds can destroy your advantage if not taken care of early.
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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted June 11, 2009 08:22 PM

Like threads like these discussing specific faction vs faction strategies.
Definition of mid-game being wk3-4 please:
is this hero ~lvl 20? (not too many skills/perks)
not all creature dwellings built? [unupgraded lvl 6?  haven wood requirements can be bit high?]
fully-built mage guild & heroes having access to all spells?

@JoeTheLoser: nice detailed post especially comment on marksmen being main force.  Look forward to seeing your inferno analysis as their war machines are even stronger (should horsies & doggies gate first?)

@Elvin: agree with not being able to build footmen early

@Lexxan: interesting points altho somehow there may not be enough time to do that griffin last stand/regen thingy - what did enemy hero do when your hero casted mass haste & 2 regens?

I normally like dark vs inferno if already have war machines/first aid tent but amount of mana remaining if drained by familiar could make it problematic.  But mass confusion when marksmen are main force would be a killer.
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einomida
einomida


Known Hero
posted June 11, 2009 09:45 PM

Here`s a tricky one - Dungeon vs Stronghold (sorry for breaking the current Sylvan vs Academy discussion).

I guess Dungeon can only go Destructive against Stronghold (which is quite obvious -> Shatter Destructive), with Ignite being a good way to deal good damage. Dark works ofc, but Dungeon can`t have it by default.

Pure might vs Stronghold seems not so good idea, but then again Cold Steel would be pretty good (Quadruple Flaming Cold Steel Ballista )

Anyway, as you may already see, I`m not that good when it comes to build strategies, these are just some simple and obvious things. So enlighten me.

Oh, would it be good idea to use Assassins for the extra poison - takes down rage?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 11, 2009 10:11 PM

I wouldn't bother with ballista unless I plan to rush them. A lucky centaur shot could possibly destroy ballista on impact from week 4 onwards so it would be a waste of skills.
Summoning is not a very good idea versus charging factions, a phoenix may help but warcries can incapacitate it, shamans can slow it and with 3-4 units coming fast your way it can only kill so much. But summoning with dark is another case.
Pure might is indeed a bad idea because they can do better damage than you and also resist more blows, you'd be dead within two rounds. Ignite is not bad and neither is cold death, if you are lucky to score a good might hit afterwards it's a winner. But I value freezing more, delays them.

Assassin poison won't help much, maybe kill some centaurs. You need good direct damage asap.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted June 11, 2009 10:24 PM
Edited by Lexxan at 22:35, 11 Jun 2009.

Dungeon vs Stronghold: Lethos, as it's highly unlikely that the Stronghold player will have both Shatters Dark and Destructive ... He (Your opponent) still needs to have a good build, does he not? Attack, Logistics and War Machines, possibly Leadership and Defence.
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veco
veco


Legendary Hero
who am I?
posted June 11, 2009 10:32 PM
Edited by veco at 22:33, 11 Jun 2009.

Leadership? What for? Dark, Destr, Logs, Enlight with Intuition if you're unlucky with Dark spells + Swift Mind - that's what I would go for with Lethos. Possibly Sorcery/Luck or if I'm lucky - Defence. Then again I don't play full maps on multi
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Lexxan
Lexxan


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Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted June 11, 2009 10:35 PM

Veco, the build I talked about was the one that the BARBARIAN would (most likely) be taking

With Lethos, it would obviously be Swift Mind, Empowered Spells/Vision, Intelligence and Luck.. and maybe Defence if you're lucky
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veco
veco


Legendary Hero
who am I?
posted June 11, 2009 10:47 PM

Oops, missed that part.
Oh yeah, Stronghold with Aura of Swiftness+Battle Elation/Tactics+Retribution is scary. Getting both is impossible/hard outside duel maps, yes? Add a possible initiative boster and Battlecry and without Swiftmind you're doomed
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted June 11, 2009 11:19 PM

The Warlock will have Swift Mind, don't worry
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Elvin
Elvin


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Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 12, 2009 12:24 AM

Flooding a thread with skill chit chat doesn't help the topic to progress so let's not derail it further shall we?
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joetheloser
joetheloser


Hired Hero
posted June 12, 2009 03:44 AM

Quote:
Well he did ask for hints as sylvan vs academy, the first paragraph was an example.


Ooops, you are completely right.  I missed that.

Quote:
Crossbowmen may still act before seducers but there is always divine guidance, haste will not let them act before enemy hero.


The goal, of course, is to kill the seduccers as quick as possible.  I'm not saying would help them act first...casting haste early is more for "long term" (which admitedly won't be that long in a week3/4 battle)

Getting your hero to have Divine Guidance (+Swift mind) to ensure your crossbowmen act first on MOST maps in going to be risky, but rewarding.  I still contend BALLISTA + CROSSBOWMEN are the strength of your army at this stage in game.

By splitting the crossbowmen you hedge your bets and will for sure lose one stack..but save the other.  If you decide to go the full stack route...and other player is inexperienced...LAY HANDS will cure the seduce before they have a chance to act.

@LEXXAN:

I agree with most everything you saying, but I think you missed the whole TIMING portion.  

The STALLIONS/NIGHTMARES will act before the paladins (and cerebri might) but at this point, their numbers are so low, they won't dent you much (HAVEN has insane stats).

All of the things you quote in your post: SWIFT MIND, EMPATHY, DIVINE GUIDANCE, LAST STAND, EXP MASS HASTE require a MINIMUM of level 22 hero.  On many maps, week 3..that is going to be tough to achieve.  

I'm picturing a battle of level 14 or less hero, which restricts your choices.

Anyhow...like to post more, but short on time.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 12, 2009 03:58 AM

Ironically haven vs inferno was my first match in the arena playoffs against strider. I used a good part of my gold on paladin training and I managed to kill succubi in time, also the gated familiars before they drained my remaining mana. Some mistakes aside there was a good amount of randomness as griffins never got morale dives yet always morale after landing, sometimes morale plus divine guidance gave me unexpected attacks, sometimes strider's nightmares were outrageously lucky with fear. In any case with my limited mana I was forced into defensive and you can see the gates were too many to hold them back with split crossbowmen. I'm pretty sure it would have been suicidal, for one the succubi would have survived and seduced my other crossbow stack or the zealots into casting RM on his devils/nightmares. Of course arena plays a lot differently than normal maps and I am not as experienced as strider there.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted June 12, 2009 10:50 AM

Quote:

All of the things you quote in your post: SWIFT MIND, EMPATHY, DIVINE GUIDANCE, LAST STAND, EXP MASS HASTE require a MINIMUM of level 22 hero.  On many maps, week 3..that is going to be tough to achieve.  



erm... those are 2 strategies: 1) Swift Mind, Empathy, Divine Guidance + Mass Light (advanced will do as well) and 2) Last Stand, Expert Regeneration (or maybe mass Haste), Divine Guidance + Empathy.
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samiekl
samiekl


Supreme Hero
posted June 12, 2009 11:44 AM

Dungeon going might against orcs is very good. You need about 5 more attack than his defense. So... a build like destruction, logistics, enlightenment, luck, attack is more powerful than the usual magic warlock build.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 12, 2009 12:13 PM

Hmm if you get tactics it should be worth your while. My main concern is that if you go might then it's mostly up to the atb and initiative artifacts.
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