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| Thread: I find this very disturbing |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elvin
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posted August 08, 2009 03:15 AM |
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Yeah but they didn't beat you and see the result 
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mvassilev
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posted August 08, 2009 04:09 AM |
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Binabik
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posted August 08, 2009 04:35 AM |
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Yes, this is very disturbing. If I'm interpreting Xerdux's post right, that by "beating" he means spanking, it's very disturbing that New Zealand would consider such a law. And it's disturbing that Sweden already has such a law.
Long before knowing this about Sweden, it was completely obvious that Xerdux was in serious need of discipline. At his age, I'd say that turning him over and giving his butt some good smacks with full arm swings would be appropriate. If he doesn't get tears in his eyes then he wasn't hit hard enough. If he should dare open his mouth to complain, then he should be hit again. And if he opens his mouth again he should be hit again. It should be done repeatedly until he eventually keeps his mouth closed. Then hopefully he will learn a lesson in life, that there are consequences to your actions.
Better that he learn it now. Because in ten years when he hasn't learned to keep his mouth shut, and he hasn't learned that there are consequences to his actions, it won't be his butt getting smacked by a hand. It will be someone much bigger than him who will totally beat the **** out of him because they got tired of listening to his crap. And since he still probably won't learn his lesson, when he's curled in a ball on the ground, they will kick him as hard as they can in the kidney to make a point. And when he's puking his guts out and bleeding and trying to crawl away to find help, maybe an immigrant will have mercy on him and stop to help.....but they might also remember the racist who hates immigrants and just walk on by. But I think they'd stop to help.
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Elvin
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posted August 08, 2009 04:57 AM |
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I had some similar notions but did not want to get into such detail.. Xerox sees the evil parents being torturers, he's already figured out how the world works and sees what the rest of the world cannot. I sincerely hope he will not have to learn things the hard way though chances are he will. So much bias that it's not even funny.
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mvassilev
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posted August 08, 2009 05:14 AM |
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Quote:
Yes, this is very disturbing. If I'm interpreting Xerdux's post right, that by "beating" he means spanking, it's very disturbing that New Zealand would consider such a law. And it's disturbing that Sweden already has such a law.
Long before knowing this about Sweden, it was completely obvious that Xerdux was in serious need of discipline. At his age, I'd say that turning him over and giving his butt some good smacks with full arm swings would be appropriate. If he doesn't get tears in his eyes then he wasn't hit hard enough. If he should dare open his mouth to complain, then he should be hit again. And if he opens his mouth again he should be hit again. It should be done repeatedly until he eventually keeps his mouth closed. Then hopefully he will learn a lesson in life, that there are consequences to your actions.
Better that he learn it now. Because in ten years when he hasn't learned to keep his mouth shut, and he hasn't learned that there are consequences to his actions, it won't be his butt getting smacked by a hand. It will be someone much bigger than him who will totally beat the **** out of him because they got tired of listening to his crap. And since he still probably won't learn his lesson, when he's curled in a ball on the ground, they will kick him as hard as they can in the kidney to make a point. And when he's puking his guts out and bleeding and trying to crawl away to find help, maybe an immigrant will have mercy on him and stop to help.....but they might also remember the racist who hates immigrants and just walk on by. But I think they'd stop to help.
Epic win. Archived.
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Azagal
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posted August 08, 2009 07:56 AM |
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Edited by Azagal at 08:06, 08 Aug 2009.
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Quote:
And this is not a troll topic.
+ Blizzards reply + Vokial + Binabik
Gaaahahahahahaha.....AHAHAAAHAHA.This thread is freakin hillarious. Well it was until I found out that some were being serious...
Apart from that I'm a bit surprise though to see so many who are not opposed to the notion of causing their children pain in order to "teach them a lesson". I'd like to think that the civilized portion of mankind has better ways to teach their children than by causing them pain. If I understand what has been said on the topic correctly I assume most of you share Dooms point of view:
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Spoiled brats can be terrorists in families, to a point where nothing can actually work rather than a few slaps.
We of course all know that he is right. Spoiled children can be (are) horrible in families not being grateful for what they have, not knowing their place, etc. etc. but if it has gotten this far the parenting obviously hasn't done enough to prevent this development. Doom has already said how to do it correctly:
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I wasn't either but I wasn't an *** towards my parents, so there was no need
See what I mean? If you raise a child responsibly you will not end up in a situation where a lesson can only be "learned" if you cause it pain.
As I understand Binabik (and everyone else who's in favour of parents being able to beat their kids) kids are beaten
a) to "learn" a lesson/understand what they did was wrong
b) so that they establish a connection between "wrong" and "pain". Pain would become their logical consequence of doing something wrong.
I'd think that this is a rather primitive method of raising your children. Why? What do you personally think is better for the development of a childs mind that they don't do things
a) because they understand that they shouldn't do it because their parents explained to them why it's bad/wrong to do x?
b) because they don't want to feel pain again. In a worst case scenario even fear the pain?
I think we can agree on a).
I'm not saying that parents who beat their children will not also explain why it's wrong but I hope it's comprehendable that after a beating (especially one to the disturbing extend Binabik is describing) the beating will weight much stronger in the mind of a child than the explanation.
In anycase the results of beating your child may be "satisfactory" to their parents if the child has learned the lesson and (for example) won't steal cookies from the cookie jar any more. So children can indeed learn by being beaten. But the point is the same can be done without hurting your child it just requires a little bit more care and intellect on behalf of the parents.
If you beat your child you just prove that you're either not patient or civilized or intelligent enough to teach. Which may be something the parent can live with (or actually not be aware of) but the child will be at a disadvantage no matter how you look at it.
I personally find it pretty sad that people wouldn't trust their own children to understand something (or "learn a lesson") when they explain something to them without seeing the need to beat them. Maybe they won't get it the first time, maybe not the second and maybe not even the third but eventually they will understand it. And then you'll have thought your child without having beaten it. I'm not there yet but apart from being the way more civilized solution I can't help but think that it's got to feel a lot better than beating your children.
Beating your children is simply the easy way out. Then again beating your kids also seems to have certain positive effects (it's a comedian not somebody hitting a child... you can click the link. He may sound a bit racist though to some of the more sensible people here I guess).
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Mytical
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posted August 08, 2009 08:12 AM |
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If life was 'fair' then I would agree that 'corporal punishment' should never be used. Life, by no stretch of the imagination, is fair. A spoiled child can be in for a very rude awakening when they are on their own. You think 'Jimbob' is going to hesitate for a second to remove a couple teeth from some arrogent person who thinks they can get away with anything? A slap on the hand or butt can help provent those missing teeth later. Preventive maintainence.
Now there is a huge difference between abuse and punishment. An open hand on the wrist or butt will rarely leave any serious damage, but it gets the point accross. Anything beyond that is probably a bit too much. Case in point. Child is racing toward a fire. You can grab them, preventing them from possibly dying, and leave a bruise. Or you can hope "Jimmy NO." will stop them. If it doesn't then YOU are responsible, because YOU could have prevented it.
I believe the threat of child services is why people have started getting beligerant. Because they had no dicipline when they were growing up. People have not been taught respect. But .. since I will never have children..I don't have to worry about it  . All I can say is I have been a babysitter before, and the children may not respect their parents but they respect me (a kitten wouldn't really fear me  ). I rarely had to do anything to cause this either. They knew I WOULD, so I didn't HAVE to.
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Azagal
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posted August 08, 2009 08:26 AM |
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No offense Mytical but I'm not sure wether you understood me.
You (as I already said) speak of a spoiled child. The moment you have a spoiled child something has been inargueably wrong with the parenting up to this point.
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An open hand on the wrist or butt will rarely leave any serious damage, but it gets the point accross.
Again as I said in my previous post yes it can ("can" mind you). But that is not the point. The point is that you're willing to hurt your child instead of making it understand by other means than causing it pain.
Apart from that I do not believe your "Case in point" is the correct example for this case... why? Because in your example you speak about the act of preventing the child to get hurt. Of course you'll do whatever you can to stop it. What you'll do after you've saved your child is what this is about Mytical. Wether you'll tell it that it'll get seriously hurt when it touches fire or wether you'll beat it and say fire is bad. That would have been the correct example.
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Because they had no dicipline when they were growing up. People have not been taught respect.
And you don't think that it's possible to get those values across without beating your children? Well I can assure you that there are people out there who are able to do so. Apparently you are too if I understand your Babysitter example correctly. I'm pretty sure you don't beat the children you watch over so as you can see it works without beating.
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Mytical
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posted August 08, 2009 08:58 AM |
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Would I be willing to give a small ammount of pain to ensure that a larger amount of pain doesn't happen? Absolutely. While it is possible to instruct children without causing pain of any kind, you pretty much have to get them when they are young to do so. Once they have become 'spoiled' by parents who refuse (or just can't) discipline then unfortunately sometimes the only way to get the point accross is a slap on the wrist.
People fear disciplining their child AT ALL now. Simply because of child services, it is considered abuse, or some psychiatrist said so. This leads to spoiled brats who know they can get away with anything, which leads to adults who think the rules don't apply to them. Which leads to obnoxious behavior, rudeness, and not caring about anybody but oneself.
As I said, life is very unfair. A child has to realise that, while maintaining being a child for as long as possible. Discipline is absolutely essential in the raising of a child. Now when you see a grown person repeatedly smacking a child (even on the rear) that IS a bit much. A single smack on the wrist or the rear lets the child know that something is dangerous, or that the current behavior will not be tolerated. I am not talking raring back and hitting with all your might by any means.
Yes I have smacked a few wrists, and smacked a few rears when babysitting. After the first time, it never has to happen again, because they are aware I WILL do it. Which gets the point accross. Parents should not have to beg, bribe, or make deals with children. Nor should they be afraid of disciplining (again NOT abusing) their children. We are too politically correct, however, and the children can run over the adults because IF they try to discipline the children they are considered monsters.
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Doomforge
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posted August 08, 2009 09:02 AM |
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Loool Binabik, that was legendary
Azzie, I don't think it's my mother's parenting skills that made me who I am towards my parents... Also I don't think it would be her fault if I turned out a spoiled brat. I am a firm believer that people are born with certain character that parents can't really change... being an ***hole is one of those feats you can't do a damn thing about.
See my sister's kid. I mean, she tried to, like, raise him just like "it should be done", supplementing herself with books about it and such. And the result? It's horrible. The kid is 100% spoiled brat and listens ONLY those who can harm him. Like, his pals in school @_@ zero respect towards parents. He also listens to me, but that's about it. Towards my sis and her husband, he's a butt hole.
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Azagal
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posted August 08, 2009 09:33 AM |
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Edited by Azagal at 09:35, 08 Aug 2009.
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@Mytical
Slapping a child on the wrist is still tolerable since it's nothing excessive and can be a meassure to show that you as a parent do not approve (instead of shouting for example). A little slap is ok if combined with a proper explanation (I still think that just the explanation will do though). What I'm oppose to is the kind of "disciplining" Doom and Binabik suggest.
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While it is possible to instruct children without causing pain of any kind, you pretty much have to get them when they are young to do so.
Well of course you're right. But I mean the process of raising a child is not something you start when there not-young, do you? If you do things right (that is not perfect) from the start they won't end up spoiled/disrespectful.
@Doom
Well I don't think we have a lot to discuss then if you're a firm believer of the idea that people are born with certain characteristics, since I'm a firm believer that newborn children are clay ready to be sculpted. I'm sure that they "enherit" certain aspects of their parents (not just looks) but that is nothing a parent absolutely can not change. A childs character is the product of ít's enviroment and therefore the parents play a huge role in forming their childs character. I by no means want to say that your sisther "failed" in raising her child. But I'm certain that the child wasn't born into this world an snow and there could not have been done anything to change that except beating him.
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Mytical
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posted August 08, 2009 09:56 AM |
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I think you just misunderstand them. They are not advocating beatings (or not as I read them) but spankings. Which is a swift smack on the rear. Which I believe a parent should be able to do.
Let us take the example of schools. Guns were very frequent in the town I lived in when I was young. Kids were taught how to shoot (hunting) at an early age. Yet no kid would DARE bring a weapon to school. Why? Because they knew that if it was found they would be paddled. Now..no corporal punishment and schools have to have metal dectectors. I don't believe in coincidences.
Just as I do not think that it is a coincidence that as acceptable punishments became 'softer' that the common decency has fallen as well. That is just me, however, and I am NOT a professional.
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Binabik
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posted August 08, 2009 10:04 AM |
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Azagal, it's not beating, it's spanking. There is a huge difference. All the psychology aside, it's very simple. Spanking is effective and does no harm.
In the US, there is a major discipline problem and many people blame the type of ideas you write about as the reason. And I'm among those people.
When teachers are actually afraid to go to work because of what the students might do to them, then there is a very serious problem. When the teacher tries to get an unruly class under control and students simply tell them to **** off, then there's a serious problem. When kids are running through the store yelling and screaming and the parent simply says "Jimi, please don't do that" and the kid goes right on doing it, then there is a problem. There is a total lack of effective discipline.
You say that if it gets to the point when parents need harsher discipline like spanking then the parenting has already failed. I could just as easily argue that the LACK of spanking is what caused the parenting to be a failure to begin with.
One size doesn't fit all. There is no such thing as the "perfect" way or even the "right" way to raise a kid. But spanking is an available tool and it can be quite effective. Nobody is suggesting that kids get seriously smacked for every minor infraction. But it shouldn't be shied away from either.
@Myt, no I wasn't talking about a swift smack on the rear. In the case of Xerox I said he should be brought to the point of tears, and I meant it. At his age, and with his stubbornness and especially with the VERY bad direction he's going, harsher methods are in order.
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Mytical
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posted August 08, 2009 10:07 AM |
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I stand corrected, but I do agree. The 'no spanking' has been tried, and it has FAILED. Simple as that.
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JoonasTo
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posted August 08, 2009 10:12 AM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 10:15, 08 Aug 2009.
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Now this discussion has gotten serious so I can't just stay silent.
Simply put, you do NOT hit people. No matter if they're your kids or adults.
There are better and more effective ways to punish a kid than hit him. Try grounding it for a week without any electronics. That will be much more effective than beating the kid with a belt.
PS. I know it works, both of my siblings and most of the people under 25 I know have been raised that way. They all turned out better than me.
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Binabik
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posted August 08, 2009 10:25 AM |
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There is probably some amount of misunderstanding, but mostly this is a case that people just disagree. And it's one of those things that people won't change their mind about.
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Azagal
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posted August 08, 2009 10:30 AM |
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Edited by Azagal at 10:35, 08 Aug 2009.
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You say that if it gets to the point when parents need harsher discipline like spanking then the parenting has already failed. I could just as easily argue that the LACK of spanking is what caused the parenting to be a failure to begin with.
Actually you couldn't. Atleast not without being wrong I believe. Why? Because it's perfectly possible to raise children without "spanking" them and not fail in the end. Of course you can still fail if you don't "spank" them but then you can also fail even if you "spank" them.
And while we're at "spanking"...
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Azagal, it's not beating, it's spanking.
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In the case of Xerox I said he should be brought to the point of tears, and I meant it.
Well if you like to call it "spanking" if you make your child cry I call it unneccesary primitive violence if you willfully make your child cry by "spanking" it instead making it understand by other means. Which is clearly possible...
Your point is there is a lack of discipline and you blame "the type of ideas" that advocat it's wrong to cause your children pain... well I guess I can see where you're coming from. I guess it can be too difficult/demanding for people to raise children without "spanking" their children. As I said it's a lot easier than actually talking to them.
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But spanking is an available tool and it can be quite effective. Nobody is suggesting that kids get seriously smacked for every minor infraction. But it shouldn't be shied away from either.
As I already said in my first post: no one is argueing that "spanking" can be effective. I'm just saying that actually talking to a child can be just as effective it simply takes a bit more time and a bit more intellect. The "reward" is that you don't have to hurt your child. And when a parent has the option to let it's child learn a lesson without hurting it I would have thought it to be more civilized, reasonable and human thing to do. If you disagree that's fine.
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One size doesn't fit all.
No. It's simply that apparently not all parents can raise children without hurting them. They apparently don't know better. But simply because they don't know better doesn't make it right.
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@Mytical
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The 'no spanking' has been tried, and it has FAILED.
I'm sorry but that is completely wrong. Absolutely. In my entire life my parents have never forbidden me to do anything nor have they ever grounded, spanked or done anything you'd like to call "discipline me" and I believe I have turned out a semi-civilized human being because they talked to me. Apart from myself I know plenty of people who have never been "spanked" either and they turned out just fine.
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Mytical
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posted August 08, 2009 10:36 AM |
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Exceptions often prove the rule. Since I am a live and let live person I will just drop it here, however. Peace .
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Azagal
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posted August 08, 2009 10:39 AM |
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Ehm no... People who can raise their children without "spanking" them are not an exception. Maybe they are a minority but they are no exceptions. Every child can be raised into a civilized human being without ever having been "spanked" by it's parents. It's perfectly possible.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 08, 2009 10:41 AM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 10:45, 08 Aug 2009.
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Let's take simple comparison.
A fact is that beating can leave psychological issues to the kid.
We don't know if other forms of discipline can do that too, possible but not sure.
Beating is short term and only pains for a moment.
Isolation or something similar last for a longer time.
Beating doesn't work for kids with strong will.
Other forms can work for kids with strong will, usually badly but better than nothing.
Causing any living creature pain is morally wrong and a direct violation of many national laws and international treaties.
Most other forms of discipline are not.
PS. The reason why people fail in upbringing of their kids is not because they don't hit them. It's because they don't discipline them at all and/or give them everything they want.
EDIT: They aren't a minority anymore in Finland at least. And the youngster nowadays don't look half bad. (Ten points to the perverted people who notice what I actually wrote. )
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