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| Thread: Free Speech [Religous people welcome to express their ideas] |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted September 04, 2009 05:50 PM |
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Maybe I just hadn't chosen my words correctly, I should have said made it impossible to find employment in their field. For example, a person steals artwork from somebody and sells it, claims it is their work and starts calling the original artist's employers and saying work done for them may be in violation of copyright law. Thus nobody wants to hire the original artist. That would clearly be a case of defamation.
That's totally different than what I had in mind (see below), and that IS obviously where I agree 100%.
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Please don't say my argument is stupid, because it feels like you're implying I am stupid. You can say it is flawed, or wrong, or I am misinformed. This is just as request though and you're free to say it's stupid all you want but I'm just letting you know that that language can be hurtful. I know Elodin had a similar complaint. Can't we keep this as a respectful dialog?
No actually, I was talking about slander being stupid, because I thought you were talking about slander.
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shyranis
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posted September 04, 2009 08:10 PM |
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Than I seem to have misenterpreted you. Sorry ^_^
Thank goodness we can have thoughtful discussions here.
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Mytical
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posted September 05, 2009 09:27 AM |
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To be honest I think people have become way too sensitive. We have become 'politically' correct, but to such an extent that it is nolonger bordering on the rediculous, it has past the border a LONG time ago. Honestly, I have never been too worried about what somebody calls me. I understand why some people are, however.
Censorship is a slippery slope, and one that eventually leads to where you can't say or THINK anything. To me, it is wrong. I abide by the 'rules', even if not a fan of some. However, some I think SHOULD be changed.
Like for instance the 'protect the children' thing. Has gone WAYYY to far. Oh boohoo Johnny skinned his knee, lets put him in the hospital for a MONTH. Don't even get me started about 'words' that shouldn't be said around a kid.
Of course on the opposit end of the spectrum you have idiots like this guy. What the heck?!
Ugh, chaotic mind got me all over the place again. Will try again when it focuses some 
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Shyranis
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posted September 05, 2009 02:51 PM |
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That's why I only request, but point out people are still free to say whatever they want about me. ^_^
I point out what I would prefer but it's another person's choice of what they do.
That man was way beyond free speech though, that is assault.
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Elodin
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posted September 06, 2009 08:47 PM |
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That's why I only request, but point out people are still free to say whatever they want about me. ^_^
I point out what I would prefer but it's another person's choice of what they do.
Well, you really can't stop anyone from saying anything about you.
On this site the COC says to critisize the argument rather than the person. So instead of saying "You are a fool for believing that "you say I disagree with that because" or "that is a foolish thing to say." But some people still like to make negative comments about people rather than addressing the arguments.
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pei
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Fresh Air.
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posted September 11, 2009 08:30 PM |
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Call me cave man but if it only existed 1 religion then the amount of problems would disminish radically. Religion is also a code of conduct, people do not know how to behave and thats why theres a law but people need greater fears and hopes and thats why there is a bible.
It is my opinion, feel free to disagree as i feel free to post it. And i will remember if im censured.
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shyranis
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Supreme Hero
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posted September 13, 2009 04:28 PM |
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It is my opinion, feel free to disagree as i feel free to post it. And i will remember if im censured.
Why should anybody care? You're as free to say and believe anything as anybody else here ^_^
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Elodin
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posted February 04, 2012 03:11 AM |
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Last year freedom of religion died in France with the burqa ban which made Muslim women who wear them criminals. Recently the French Senate passed a law making it a crime to deny genocides that are officially recognized by France. So freedom of speech is dead in France too.
Clicky
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Those denying or "minimising" the genocide could face a €45,000 fine and a year in jail. France recognised the killing of the Armenians as 'genocide" in 2001, but at the time introduced no legal penalty for denying it.
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Without Freedom of Thought there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as Public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech.
Benjamin Franklin, writing as Silence Dogood, No. 8, July 9, 1722
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Salamandre
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posted February 04, 2012 03:20 AM |
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What has to do religion with being fully covered when in stores, public institutions, when teach to kids, when go to police office and so on. Besides this, this is NOT a decision against religion, but more of a "hold on a bit, it is not you who make the law", a national behavior against majority of muslims who confound being guest with being house owner.
You were the first one to jump on your horses when muslims purchased legally the right to build a mosque on ground zero. So, it is a matter of context, not of free I don't know what. You don't know how serious is the muslim problem in France.
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baklava
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posted February 04, 2012 03:34 AM |
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The only way I could feel more neutral on this issue would be if I had a beer right now.
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gnomes2169
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posted February 04, 2012 06:21 AM |
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Denying history to a point is not that bad... but when you deny facts you should be prepared to offend rather allot of people, and those people do not like being offended. It still shouldn't be illegal unless the individual starts vulgarly (Ooooo, uncertain word! Jump on him!) insulting people who recognize the historical facts of the matter. So they could call you a derp for falling for the capitalist pig-dog government lies, but they could not just go off on you and scream "You ***** son, **** YOU, YOU *****!" Just because you said that the Holocaust happened.
In other words, I do not agree with this law. It is too... restricting. Though it does promote not being an ignorant bigot, it does so in a poor manner.
On the subject of headdresses, if no facial coverings are allowed or other head coverings, then it is not anti-religious in any way, shape or form. There is absolutely no discrimination going on, since everyone is restricted, not just a select group.
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Seraphim
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posted February 04, 2012 06:46 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 06:52, 04 Feb 2012.
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There is no such thing as freedom of speech.
See,if you go in public and say "Hitler did a great job",you would go to jail.
The point is,religion and freespeech are so open and vague,its nearly impossible to create a definitive law about it.For some saying,hitler is too much and for others drawing a caricature of their imaginary prophet is too much.
Countries such as Germany,Austria,Sweeden and partly England openly voice their hate towards immigrants.People there actually express this so openly, that it is ok to scream "snow YOU snow" or "snow YOU MUSLIM".
While the reasons for this is that these countries have been flooded with uneducated people,like thugs, there is no law that defends somebody innocent against this profanity.
On the other hand,these muslim immigrants think that while "Islam is holy", no profanity might be spoken against it.Point is,that is not the case with other religions,why should they have the exclusive right to ask that?
Europe went in the wrong way when they created laws about religion. No religion should have the right to ask about "Rights". When a religion is offended, nobody in particular is offended.
Beliefs are vague and arbitrary.Actually,imo, people should be punished for asking about religious rights.The idea that muslims should have the right to build mosques in europe because of their beliefs is absurd. Why? Because a belief is absurd in the eyes of a state or a nation.
There should be a special permit to practice religion.Not everyone should be allowed to pratice it openly.In this way,it might be possible to ban a religion.
Religious freedom is BS.
Any objections?
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gnomes2169
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posted February 04, 2012 07:03 AM |
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Yup. Banning a belief or forcing people to pay for it eradicate all sense of originality, so you might say that I reject this idea until death. Any creative idea that is not yet proven is a belief. The idea that 2+2=4 is a belief (I mean, what the hell is 2 but a construct created by humans to explain something completely imperfectly? It's an organization tool and one that we believe to represent the quantity of something). Any abstract idea or new innovation is a belief. Why? Because ideas are all beliefs and innovations that are not implemented, but only theories are merely the belief that something will improve the current system.
The most obvious argument one could make against me is that none of those things in about religion. True. But when you start regulating belief, where do you stop? I hope that it is far before even considering the regulation of a personal code of ethics, but you have not only considered it, you advocate it. Why? You believe that it will make things better than they are now. I have absolutely no right to curtail your beliefs about this subject, but if this idea of yours passed then it might not be impossible for that to happen. Also, you would be happening to break the second part of the national law of the country I live in (Separation of church and state, not regulating religion as long as it does nothing illegal). The creation of a law specifically to curtail religion is a direct violation of that right, so I object to it completely. This may not be binding or important to you, but since you asked for my opinion/ objections and it is a part of my life, I feel it is a fair point to bring up.
Counterpoint?
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
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Corribus
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posted February 04, 2012 07:34 AM |
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There is no such thing as freedom of speech.
See,if you go in public and say "Hitler did a great job",you would go to jail.
Not in the US you wouldn't.
Yet.
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angelito
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posted February 04, 2012 10:46 AM |
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Edited by angelito at 10:46, 04 Feb 2012.
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My religion tells me to touch every woman's boobs. Daily.
I hope there is religious freedom in the region where you live, Elodin 
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Adrius
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posted February 04, 2012 11:53 AM |
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Edited by Adrius at 12:02, 04 Feb 2012.
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So does this mean I can't wear a scarf and sunglasses in France?
Or does the law only apply to brown people?
But yeah, that genocide-denying-crime thingy is retarded. If you compromise free speech it has no value anymore. It's either all or nothing.
Denying genocides doesn't hurt anyone, or well... it might offend someone...
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Countries such as Germany,Austria,Sweeden and partly England openly voice their hate towards immigrants.People there actually express this so openly, that it is ok to scream "snow YOU snow" or "snow YOU MUSLIM".
Nope, not in Sweden. If you say it like that you face criminal charges, called "provocation of ethnic group". You can use arguments for why Muslims should snow off, though being too obvious is media suicide.
Our rascists like creating vague websites with false statistics and then cry about not being allowed to discuss with the big boys.
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del_diablo
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posted February 04, 2012 01:39 PM |
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Well, about Sweden and racism: Can we discuss Malmø then? The "city" has roughly entered a state of no law, where the immigrant gangs are creating a hell and the citizens are afraid to walk outside after dark.
I think we have a thread around somewhere with the topic of the discussion being ethnical grouping and multiple monocultures present in the same society.
That said, for some extremely odd reason, the work immigrants of the 70s never caused any problems, the entire "lol lets create gangs, get really fundamentalists, and terrorize" is a pretty new notion. But that said, we need to dig up that thread, because this is off-topic for this thread.
And there is nothing wrong with robbing religion of its power. At the least in the west, where our history is compozed of the church turning into some sort of megaorganisation that controlled intereuropean politics to a rather large degree, and it was used as a propaganda tool to control the slaves serfs peasants. Even after the reformation, it was still a propaganda tool against the peasants.
Saying "This is wrong because God says so" really means "I have no idea why, but i think this is wrong, but I can't justify it", or at the least that is the context it is used in. Religion needs to adapt to the age, and not the age to religion. Just like society needs to adapt to the age, and not the opposite.
However, at the same time, when we first decide to supress religion, somebody is going to be offended, and those somebodies will attempt to bolster their recruitment, leading to more offended people.
Saying "We hate your guts Islam" will just lead to the parents and the priesthood attempt to get more children to follow Islam, to a more fanatical degree.
If we just ignored them, the kids would get the opposite effect: Nothing is attempting to supress the religion, and yet the religion asks for unreasonable demands. So they leave it, with time and age. Most of the entire western atheism has been caused by robbing the religon of its blackmail powers, but otherwise leave it entirely alone.
Of course, this never solved the "highly religious communties" problem, such as the Bible Belt in USA, or certain parts of the Norwegian south, and similar places in a lot of countries.
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Zenofex
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posted February 04, 2012 03:25 PM |
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Quote:
There should be a special permit to practice religion.Not everyone should be allowed to pratice it openly.In this way,it might be possible to ban a religion.
Religious freedom is BS.
Any objections?
I for one am strongly against this. As much as I consider the vast majority of the world religions to be bull****s (although the philosophies associated with them are completely different story), I'm quite reluctant to support such a censorship. Sounds too much like The Holy Inquisition to me (the irony). And among other things, forcefully suppressing something is the best way to ensure that it will thrive in the long run, due to human stubbornness and all. In the end, it's usually not the religion's fault that its followers are mostly idiots.
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Not in the US you wouldn't.
McCarthy? It's not about Hitler, but still...
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Corribus
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posted February 04, 2012 03:31 PM |
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McCarthy? It's not about Hitler, but still...
And what happened to him?
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Zenofex
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posted February 04, 2012 03:33 PM |
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The point is that he happened before something happened to him. So it's not like you are immune.
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