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| Thread: Heroes 3 Dialogue Master + The Stand Map Demo + ERM Dialogue Function |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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AxonnEchysttas
Hired Hero
Spawning WoG Maps
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posted September 04, 2009 12:20 PM |
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Heroes 3 Dialogue Master + The Stand Map Demo + ERM Dialogue Function
For all that it's worth, please try to read everything I wrote here? I know I write a lot, but indulge me ::- ).
I'm a crazy over-imaginative snow and my dream is to create the greatest open-ended adventures, with story, dialogue, multiple choices in the game. Open Ended Worlds. And since besides being a writer and game designer, I am also a programmer, I made some tools to help me. These are the tools, these are stories, this is everything ::- ).
Go here: http://www.echysttas.org/AxonnEchysttasH3.rar
You will have there all that I worked until now ::- ). Hell, I even included the source code, all of it, including for my Code Generator ::- D!
What you got there is this:
1. My Heroes 3 map project. You will need to copy the map The Stand 1.h3m into the well known "maps" folder AND, VERY IMPORTANTLY, copy the "Data" folder over your Heroes 3 "Data" folder. Don't worry, I won't overwrite any files. Actually there is an "AE" folder there which needs to be in your Heroes 3 data folder because I use images from it. No other way to do it nicely in ERM.
2. The Code Generator that I used to generate all the dialogue in the map.
3. Source code + ReadMe file which will explain exactly how the ERM Code Generator works.
WARNING: This is not the Code Generator I was talking about in my "I'm Back" topic here in the Forum, but only the dialogue part of the generator. As I said, this version only works to generate dialogue, using an ERM dialogue function I made.
4. I also put in that RAR archive my ERM dialogue "engine". It's a WOGIFY FRIENDLY function which can generate dialogues for you. 2 years ago when I built it, I made it so it's compatible with The List of The Claimed. I don't know how that list looks now, but changes should be easy enough to do.
ATTENTION: To see an example of what the Dialogue Master can do, open with it the file "The Stand Part 1 Dialogue -01- Gard Bulur.h3dm" located near my Heroes 3 map, in your maps folder. Actually you don't need to have that file in your maps folder. I just included it so that you can open it with the Dialogue Master and see what it can do.
WARNING: You need .Net Framework 2.0 for the application to work. Execute ASDH3DM.exe.
Sooooooooooo...
WHY AM I DOING ALL THIS:
Initially, I wanted to surprise everybody with a 100% ready map and with some neat tools for you all to work with.
However, I've been dragging on with this for the better part of the last 3 years. And 2 years before that just fiddling around with ERM. I feel that I lack motivation to continue.
So, you just take a look at that map and those things and tell me what you think ::- ).
Regardless of your answer, I will finish everything, but a bit of interest in these things will probably make me move a bit faster.
Next month I will start development at the new ERM Code Generator which will be able to COMPLETELY take over 100% of the ERM development for a map. Without it, I cannot complete such a huge project I got myself into. As you will see if you play the map demo, it branches in lots of directions and it took me MONTHS to work only that much.
WARNING: the map is not even a demo. It's just 15% complete! So all you can do is go towards the village there and do some of the quests. You WILL get a GENERAL FEELING of what I'm trying to build here. DO REMEMBER that it will be less dialogue from this point on, but the map WILL still remain a story-driven adventure.
P.S.: Some thoughts about the map's future:
- You will be able to escape the island in 4 different ways, allying yourself with 4 different factions: the Rogues, the Bandits, the Lizards and one surprise faction which I will not divulge yet ::- ).
- On the map, you will be able to ally yourself with various factions.
- You will be able to talk to some vital-for-the-story Heroes before attacking them and you will be able to become allies with some.
- The final purpuse is to make this map so open-ended that you will be able to play it 10 times without getting bored of it.
So yeah, it's a huge project ::- ). But now, at least I show you that I'm commited to this ::- ).
I hope you enjoy my work!
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 04, 2009 12:23 PM |
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I got it and suddenly I had a terrible headache. 
You should post this in russian (english section) forums, here you will not have any echo for it.
The dialog master is close to something already released but never completely finished. I don't remember the name but it created easy scripts, automatic triggers/receivers, you only had to specify coordinates and true/false flag. Very ambitious.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted September 04, 2009 12:47 PM |
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Crashes without precise error message, it just has something to do with kernel32. Portability issues?
Quote:
I hope you enjoy my work!
Work is so enjoyable. I could sit and watch it for all day.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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AxonnEchysttas
Hired Hero
Spawning WoG Maps
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posted September 04, 2009 01:17 PM |
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Hm. Irony and displeasure... not really the results I counted on, *laugh*.
Warmonger: It can't have portability issues since it's .Net Framework all the way. As I said in my message, you need .Net Framework 2.0. That's all.
Salamandre: well, this is the Forum section I dwell in so I posted here, not knowing any better area. The Dialogue Generator is terminated for all I care so it's no purpose in posting there. It was just a tool to help me do some stuff and it MAY help anybody who wishes to use dialogues in their maps. But that's as far as it goes.
The real cool tool, the ERM Code Generator, well, that one I will definitely post in the more specialized areas once I start work at it, next month.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 04, 2009 01:24 PM |
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I did not mean irony. All I can see is that it is much easier to code by hand than follow your tools. Not that automation is bad but if we need to be expert in programming to be able to create a dialog then WoG would die the next day. But there are skilled programmers in WoG 3.59 forum which surely will understand and enjoy your work. Try there to have the quality comments you deserve. Here you will find only gamers.
If you felt any irony, then it was self irony. Take a look in ERM help thread to see our level.
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Era II mods and utilities
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AxonnEchysttas
Hired Hero
Spawning WoG Maps
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posted September 04, 2009 02:24 PM |
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Warmonger I think was a bit ironic, not you.
Anyway, you're right about the level of difficulty of this tool. But I just showed what I did so far and the map serves as an example of what it can do.
Trust me, to make that map coding by hand would be 10 times harder than using that tool. That's why I built the tool, because it's EXTREMELY hard to code branching dialogues BY HAND. Some dialogues are 5 levels deep! ::- ) and some have recurring phrases and ERM customizations done to them.
Doing all that by hand would be H E L L
Anyway... the next tool I'm working on will be much easier to work with. You can read about it in the "I'm back" topic. It'll be a lot more user friendly ::- ).
As for the ERM Debug Assistant, that will come as well, either separately or as a part of the Code Generator, that remains to be seen. I will join the Russian area when I start working on the tools and will keep you guys updated with the map & tools to help you write ERM ::- ).
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 04, 2009 02:40 PM |
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Quote:
Doing all that by hand would be H E L L
I understand that making this tool is happiness for you. I feel same when I code by hand. Thats the joy when creating his own work. No automated tool can replace this.
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Era II mods and utilities
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AxonnEchysttas
Hired Hero
Spawning WoG Maps
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posted September 04, 2009 02:54 PM |
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The tool I made is just the same thing. I did it with my hands.
Try coding an branched dialogue directly in ERM. Besides the fact that you'll probably spend hours trying to track a single bug, it will also take you days to create a few dialogues, while with the proper tools you can do it in minutes.
Don't tell me that you're coding ERM directly in notepad ::- ). You're using tools for that too, like ERM Scripter and so on. Besides, that tool of mine also has a Raw-ERM editing feature ::- D.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted September 04, 2009 03:04 PM |
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Well, I doubt if there are many enthusiasts of copying and pasting pages of illegible code. ERM is obsolete, limited, unfriendly and unstable.
Instead of trying to cure the dead, we'd better think of some Lua or Phyton applications which support tables, standalone variables and arguments of different types on their own, not because of some external program. Not to mention much more advanced possibilities allowing to create complex code in easy way.
Of course I agree that ERM tools would be helpful, but we're not bound to them.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 04, 2009 03:15 PM |
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Heh, many talk for saying it is limited and bugged, no one is capable of creating better. I won't name the programmers from other forums who sent me the "so called" fix/update to the "bugged" ERM and they were catastrophic and crashing every 5 seconds.
I got used to this trash-talk.
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Era II mods and utilities
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AxonnEchysttas
Hired Hero
Spawning WoG Maps
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posted September 04, 2009 03:16 PM |
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Warmonger: you're right that ERM is quite difficult to work with, BUT, it's the only way to truly exploit the power of Heroes WoG so... if I got no other choice, I take this one ::- D.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted September 04, 2009 03:21 PM |
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If you ever played H5, you could see it's capabale of and benefits from Lua scripts. It's all the matter of implementation.
Someday I'll code a set of functions for VCMI on my own, but some support would be welcome any time. We need to stop walking in circles and look further.
Many people try to use or improve ERM, but it all has its limits. We all want to work on scripts on higher level. Axonn wants to use tool to write it automatically, we want to overwite it with more complex language. So don't duplicate beings and merge our forces.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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AxonnEchysttas
Hired Hero
Spawning WoG Maps
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posted September 04, 2009 04:27 PM |
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I did play H5, I did play with its editor and I do know that ERM kicks the crap out of LUA (for this particular scenario).
Yes, LUA is 100 times easier to work in and is also much more readable.
BUT. You can't do the stuff I did with ERM in H3. You can't do custom dialogue boxes. You can't change the terrain of the map. You can't change so many things!!! That's the problem with H5 and that's why I'm never going to build maps for it: insufficient customization / programming potential.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted September 04, 2009 04:44 PM |
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You got it totally other way round. We can't alter or upgrade ERM, but now it's possible (and relatively easy) to write Lua functions to replace ERM and much more. Yes, that's the big project, but it's not what I ask for.
I ask for advice and help. I assume your understanding of the way ERM works and is processed is great and you could help us building versatile ERM interpreter for VCMI. At the same time we could plug it directly to game code fixing some limitations or translate to another scripting language in the future. That's the only way to actually improve things.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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AxonnEchysttas
Hired Hero
Spawning WoG Maps
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posted September 04, 2009 09:58 PM |
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Now that you mentioned it, Warmonger, The ERM Code Generator that I work on is actually intended to also be able to generate LUA. It is a tool for writing story driven games and will be able to do much more than simply generate ERM.
As Salamandre said, writing the code yourself is a pleasure. I do have that pleasure but I also need to be EFFICIENT. And that's where the TOOLS come in. You could do a h3 map in a hex editor, but you don't. You do it with tools. You could code ERM directly in the h3 editor but you don't. You use text editors. And so on.
My tool will not only be a code generator but also a gameplay visualizer and designer. What I did so far is just the beginning... I hope ::- D.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 04, 2009 10:24 PM |
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It is more than obvious that no one is interested to work on other than his own projects and ideas. WoG team is quarreling with HoTA team, VCMI also is alone, and Axon is interested by his dialog master and nothing else. It is not a bad thing. Of course if all people cooperated the projects will be completed faster but we are not robots and have our own interest poles. Myself I could not imagine dedicating my free time on working on some else guy ideas, and abandoning my own projects.
It is slower but it has an unique flavor for each one. And more chances to succeed one day, because ERM is not like "I build the right side of the house, while you build the left". All is connected is a subtle way and if right hand screws the left is blocked.
My last attempt to work as small team for a project failed and both creators finished stupidly angry and aggressive. I learn from that.
Concerning ERM limits I am not sure I understand what you mean. I am not a programmer and I learn ERM the hard way. It always was capable to do what I asked it for, and easy. I look from time to time to mods from other games, as HoMM5, Civilization, Half Life, and I am sure one thing: WoG ERM allows traveling at light years comparing to those.
Only thing I could complain is that ERM does not allow till now to switch between defs files while in game. But I suspect more the HoMM source code to be guilty of this lack. Anyway there are subtle and easy ways to contour this lack, as switching units and rename them. Still impossible to do with map objects, as many subtypes can't be manipulated through ERM.
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Era II mods and utilities
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AxonnEchysttas
Hired Hero
Spawning WoG Maps
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posted September 04, 2009 11:54 PM |
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Axonn Salamandre, Axonn. Double n ::- ) *laugh*
You're pretty right about "everybody working at his own project". This unfortunately causes a great fragmentation in the working power.
But you're wrong on one thing: while I am indeed focused on MY project, this project may help others in the future. I already published ERM code which even you can use. The dialogue generation function is pure ERM code, only about 200 lines and it's usable. The Dialogue Master can also be used.
So in the big picture, I am contributing to ERM and WoG.
And exactly what I said above is that ERM rules. I have never, EVER seen a game with so much customization potential as WOG with ERM.
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted September 13, 2009 11:00 AM |
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Hello there!The map you made was very good and I enjoyed playing(the finished part).I did not understand how the Dialogue Master works and if you can,post a guide.
P.S.I am curious to know how your campaign "The Stand" ends.Try making something very interesting(like the first map I played.)
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AxonnEchysttas
Hired Hero
Spawning WoG Maps
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posted October 01, 2009 08:38 PM |
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Hello. Sorry for the super-late answer. I've been trying to finish other projects in order to get back to the H3 thing. The campaign is huge and I'm building a new C# application to help me finish it, because what you see there is just the beginning and it's already extremely complex. So I need better tools to do that, tools that I'll start building this month ::- D.
The Dialogue Master code is commented and I also included some readme files. However, anything that you don't understand, ask here directly and I'll answer.
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted December 29, 2009 03:28 PM |
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Sorry for my even-later answer,beacause I left scripting time ago,but now that I recover myself,when you return back to H3,the Community needs a program like Resedit but that allows you to add .def files in .lod files,without replacing the old.If you don't return or you don't have time,at least give me the name of scripting language you used for the Dialogue Master,and some guides how to use it.
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