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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [Mod Design] Faction Independent Class System
Thread: [Mod Design] Faction Independent Class System This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 23, 2009 02:48 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 23:31, 11 Nov 2009.

[Mod Design] Faction Independent Class System

INTRODUCTION

Since haven't been able to overcome the technical and balance issues of the dual classes mod, I have decided to design a new advanced class system for H5TOE. The main difference between this class system and other class systems presented in the Altar of wishes is that this class system can be implemented in H5 TOE. So basically this is a design for a modification, but I posted it in the Altar of Wishes for two reasons:

1. I want to discuss it on a design level with people who actually play the game and are interested in further developing H5 TOE with a focus on gameplay.

2. In case I will never be able to finish the huge amount of work that needs to be done to create the mod, I can at least try to leave the community with an inspiring Altar of Wishes post.

Basics

My current idea is to create a system that contains both elements from H3 and H4. The purpose of the mod will be to greatly enhance the RPG features of the game and provide the player with an endless amount of strategies for every faction. The class system is build on 5 principles:

1. The system is faction independent which means the faction you play will no longer decide the gameplay, furthermore you do not need to pick the racial skill if you don't want it. You can play any style: might, magic, defensive or offensive with any faction (except stronghold)

2. There no longer exists a difference between racial skills and normal secondary skills, all skills will be normal secondary skills with both standard perks and special perks

3. Every secondary skills defines a class and every class can learn a unique combination of 12 different skills out of a pool of 24 skills.

4. Every faction has 3 different classes and 12 heroes = 4 heroes for every class.

5. All shatter skills, Counterstrike and  Irresistable magic can be learned by all factions and will be tweaked to be useful for them. The 6 remaining racials can only be learned by the factions that can use them.

Classes Overview

Every faction can choose between 3 classes, there will be maximum variation between the classes to provide an endless amount of possible strategies. Stronghold can have only one class because of hard-coded limitations. Every faction can switch between offensive-might, defensive-might, balanced and full magic classes. There are still several differences between factions. Academy has more variation in magic classes and no full might class. Haven on the other hand hasn't got a full magic class and more variation in might classes. The scheme shows the classname + the class defining skill.

HAVEN

Knight - Counterstrike
Paladin - Light Magic
Heretic - Dark Magic

INFERNO

Demonlord - leadership
Gatekeeper - Gating
Flamelord - Destructive Magic

NECROPOLIS

Death Knight - Defense
Reaver - Shatter Light
Necromancer Necromancy

SYLVAN

Ranger - Avenger
Warden  - Logistics
Sorcerer - Sorcery

DUNGEON

Beastmaster (Overlord?) - Attack
Guildmaster - Logistics
Warlock - Irresistable

FORTRESS

Engineer - War Machines
Runemage - Rune magic
Sage - Enlightment

ACADEMY

Seer - Luck
Wizard - Artificier
Elementalist Summoning Magic

STRONGHOLD

Barbarian - Bloodrage

Balance changes to secondary skills

-Leadership will lower morale by -1 -2 -3, when used by necropolis classes (only in hero vs hero battles!)
-luck will make damage x1.8 instead of x2, elven luck will make it x2.
-estates will give an additional  +20 gold for every hero level
-resistance increase defense by +1 for every 5 hero levels
-barbarian luck is a broken skill in TOE and will be repaired as follows: gives an additional 15% magic-proof
-cold steel will also increase attack by +1
-fiery wrath will also increase attack by +1
-chilling bones will also increase defense by +2
-exploding corpses will also increase spellpower by +2
-dark revelation will also increase knowledge by +1
-hellwrath will do more damage and use less mana.
-runic machines will increase war machine initiative by +2 (was +3)
-swift mind will either be less effective or meet more difficult requirements
-the maximum benefit from offensive/defensive formations will be lowered from +10 to +8
-the following skills will be a lot more effective: tremors, banish, corrupted soil

SKILLTREE

The game will use an universal skilltree for all classes, this means if a certain hero learns counterstrike the branches will always be the same. This may seem inappropriate (for magic classes) at first, but take in mind many classes cannot learn this skill (magic classes can learn irresistable magic instead). The skilltree is based on a 3-3-1 system for two reasons:

1. There are not enough skills in the game to fill up 3-3-3.
2. if a hero starts with the central standard perk, it can still choose any of the skills while leveling up.

Before reviewing the skilltree (and before Alcibiades tries to kill me ) i need to make some very IMPORTANT notices:

1. The current tree is only supposed to reflect the placement of the skills, not the used icons and names!
2. Some powerful skills will need more requirements then visible in the scheme (swift mind and swift gating need a logistics perk for example)
3. Many skills will have additional scripted features and balance changes (like mentioned above).












CLASS TABLES

These tables are supposed to view the skills every class can learn and the probabilities to get them. The probabilities for primary skills are designed according to the following numeric system:

45%-30%-15%-10% = focused class (like H5 default)
30%-30%-20%-20% = balanced class (50% might and 50% magic)

The probabilities for secondary skills are designed according to the following numeric system:

12%-12%-12%-10%-10%-8%-8%-8%-8%-4%-4%-4%

This sytem has several advantages compared to the 15% -> 2% system from H5TOE, because it is no longer close to impossible to learn certain skills, means the player has more freedom to pick the skills
he wants. For balance reasons all classes have a decent chance to learn logistics and luck (8% minimum), and only the mightiest classes
have difficulties learning enlightment.

Download Class System XLS tables

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 23, 2009 02:53 PM

reserved..

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KnightofHonour
KnightofHonour


Famous Hero
posted September 26, 2009 01:05 AM
Edited by KnightofHonour at 01:09, 26 Sep 2009.

A lot of work you put into this I see, good to see ppl trying to improve the game!

IMHO you could give example heroes with this system you are suggesting to be easier to understand and compare with what we have now.

By what I understood, basically you want to make a lot of skills available but, at the same time, limit them to some classes of heroes within the factions in an attempt to increase the roleplaying factor of the game?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 26, 2009 01:37 PM

Quote:
By what I understood, basically you want to make a lot of skills available but, at the same time, limit them to some classes of heroes within the factions in an attempt to increase the roleplaying factor of the game?


Well if you compare it with H5TOE. In H5TOE there are 8 different skillwheels for all classes, but there is no difference in which skills are in the wheel (always the same 12 secondary skills + the same racial). Still the skill system is too complex to play (without ingame skillwheel), because all the branches are different and impossible to memorize by people with normal human brains. This system should actually be more simple and more diverse at the same time, because the branches are always the same but now every class has a unique set of 12 secondary skills to learn.

I think after all this post was a little overwhelming and maybe more examples instead of tables could have explained it better. I'm actually thinking about reducing the amount of classes to 3 for every faction, that means every faction can have a might class, a magic class and a balanced class (pretty much like Kings Bounty: the Legend). A good idea maybe?

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 26, 2009 01:41 PM

Good to see you still working Magnomagus. This topic seems more suited for Modder's Workshop to me?
____________
What will happen now?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 26, 2009 01:51 PM

Well I posted it here hoping to reach a different crowd as usual, because it has occured to me since a long time the modders workshop is mainly a gathering place of people interested in 3d art who no longer play the game. However it seems to me I'm not reaching any crowd at all here, so I would be glad if you can move it to the modders workshop, then I can at least discuss it with my old buddies.


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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 26, 2009 02:33 PM

Done.
____________
What will happen now?

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VokialBG
VokialBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted September 26, 2009 03:01 PM

When I start reading this I was very worried about the skills probabilities, but I think you did it really nice. At least as idea. It's where the creator must be very careful, because the gameplay my suffer greatly, and some skill are going to become unalbe to be picked.

The whole idea of yours is very nice and I'll like to see it playable one day, if not as mod, in some future Heroes game

I have not looked very deep in the new skill trees, but I'll like discuss Death March, Warpath, Familiar Ground, just lore looking (don't pretend to be very right, since no one said offiacial), Death March sounds like necro ability, while Familiar Ground may be better in Logistics and Warpath for might classes, so maybe attack or something else, with better chance to be picked by the might classes.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 26, 2009 03:33 PM

Quote:
Death March sounds like necro ability, while Familiar Ground may be better in Logistics and Warpath for might classes, so maybe attack or something else, with better chance to be picked by the might classes.


My intention is to change the familiar ground skill to be effective on swamp terrain. familiar ground and death march will then swap icons and both get suitable names. I wanted to move this skill to the necro faction for balance reasons, necro is really missing speed with might heroes (the creatures are just slow) while haven & sylvan really don't need anymore speed. All factions will be able to learn death march+ aura of swiftness.

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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted November 07, 2009 03:53 PM
Edited by Cleave at 15:55, 07 Nov 2009.

I missed that thread and it got bumped when I last checked the workshop.

I'm a big fan of your mods Magnomagus so I really look forward to playing that new mod of yours.

Keep up the good work!
____________
13 Heroes

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Berny-Mac
Berny-Mac


Promising
Legendary Hero
Lord Vader
posted November 07, 2009 04:14 PM

Ahem...there are two warlocks, sir.
____________
Skyrim RP? YES!
Here it is!

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 07, 2009 08:49 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 20:52, 07 Nov 2009.

This design used several classes two times, that's why it was called faction-independent. I say 'was' because I have decided to reduce the design to 3 classes for every faction. Might+magic+balanced

In the first weeks of october I have been very active on this, but now RL has taken over again. The good news is, I have a mod on my HD that is almost as big as WOG, but it needs finishing. I have already managed to create 23 classes + skillwheels (internally). I also created all the heroes (12 for every faction, 4 might, 4 magic, 4 balanced). The things that still needs to be done are icons and texts and a ~100 page manual to use it.

I have also been working on a large integration job, I want to combine all the following functions to create one true HOMM5.5:

-23 Heroclasses, might/magic & balanced
-12 heroes/faction
-Advanced AI + treasure building improvements
-Mega AI scripts
-Tournament edition scripts
-All official maps prepared for use with TE scripts & 12 heroes
-Support for NCF
-Support for 4-7 dwellings
-bugfix mods
-balanced skills (as mentioned above)
-Bad's levels mod
-balanced war machines & artifacts prices (few)
-siege towers (visual improvement)
-Alcibiades balanced building prices
-improved refugee camp (fiur)
-balanced spells (more like TE)
-balanced creature abilities (more like TE)
-possible removal of annoyances like 'weeks of disease' and tooltip sounds.
-return to H5 original mainmenu

The mod is supposed to be as flexible as possible so everyone can choose what to install. Hopefully i can beat H6 before it ships!

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sith_of_ziost
sith_of_ziost


Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
posted November 07, 2009 10:16 PM

Great initiative, magno. Revamping heroes is very important and dear to my heart, since imho, hero builds really have too much to increase with the levels...

I hope to see more on this so more critique can come of this.
____________
Steel Yourself for War

Next Set: Mirrodin
Beseiged

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Willow
Willow


Adventuring Hero
Tree of Knowledge
posted November 08, 2009 10:53 AM

Excellent work Magnomagus! I look forward to seeing more.

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Willow
Willow


Adventuring Hero
Tree of Knowledge
posted November 11, 2009 12:30 AM

Hey Magnomagus, just posting to let you know I replied to your email.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 11, 2009 03:06 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 17:13, 11 Nov 2009.

I have posted all the info on the new class system. The revised secondary skill tree and an xls file with all the probabilities and heroes. The main difference is the reduction to 3 classes/faction. I also added even more tactical variation to the game by making skills like consume corpse and mark of the wizard available to all factions (but only their suitable classes!)

@Willow

I will sent you a reply soon but need some more time to prepare.
EDIT: It is sent
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TroggyMan
TroggyMan


Adventuring Hero
Ragin' Tard
posted November 11, 2009 10:27 PM

I would make these changes to the current planned classes, just names, but I think it makes a little more sense:

Paladin- Cleric, classic class and cannot be confused with the unit named Paladin.
Heretic- Hereisarch, a heretic is a simpleton, but a hereisarch is a leader!

Flamekeeper- Obliterator? Thought Flamekeeper sounded too dwarfish.

Beastmaster- Overlord? It is a classic dungeon class afterall.




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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 11, 2009 11:20 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 23:23, 11 Nov 2009.

For inferno I had in mind flamelord instead of flamekeeper, sorry for some mistakes in some tables. I thought overlord was one of the least popular classnames in H3, but personally I have not much problems with it. I like classic classnames, that's also why I used heretic and beastmaster. Heretic makes more sense in Haven then it did in Inferno. Hereisarch is a really unknown title, I would rather prefer renegade or dark knight otherwise. The choice for paladin is related to the visual appearance of the heroes (I have no cleric models/icons), so I rather prefer renaming the creatures if really necessary.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 11, 2010 10:55 PM

has anyone ever thought about creating a 13th skill based on magic resistances and protections?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted January 13, 2010 06:04 PM

Well you cannot make a 'full' new skill that way, but in my new mod luck and defense will both have a branch specializing in magic protection. Of course there are also the shatter skills, which can be picked by some other might classes like knights and death knights.
So the game is pretty well stocked in this respect.

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