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| Thread: after life |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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Vashanesh
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posted October 13, 2009 02:50 AM |
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after life
what will happens after death
will the soul go to heaven to god and find it's etrnal peace...
Or in hell and becomme satan's slave for all eternaty...
meybi there is no heaven and hell and the soul reincarnate in a new life meybi in a humman meybi in an animal...
or even worser and our souls are damned to conglomerate in a chaotic dimension a chasm in the histoid of reallity...
or will this mystery never be solved...
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted October 13, 2009 09:47 AM |
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best case scenario: we make our own afterlife.
worst case scenario: there is nothing, and we are all aware of it.
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ohforfsake
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posted October 13, 2009 01:06 PM |
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will the soul go to heaven to god and find it's etrnal peace...
Or in hell and becomme satan's slave for all eternaty...
Well if any of these were true, I wouldn't be fearing death, and here's why:
God is all mighty (means God can do whatever God wants to do, or to say, no one else really have a saying against Gods will), likewise God is the good guy (if not, then the followers of God, would not be following God for the sake of agreement in greater good, but due to one of the "deadly sins" (I can go into detail about that, but if you think about it, it's pretty given)).
From those two perspectives, it means, no matter if you believe in God or not, and no matter what you've done in your life, you'll get forgiveness and get to go to Heaven (The good guy).
If that wasn't the case, God would not be "the good guy", which means again you'd by automatic be following one the "deadly sins", if you'd agree upon the actions of God.
However, we don't know, and it might be something completely else (all this is just guessing after all, and following the logic of the guessers backwards).
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meybi there is no heaven and hell and the soul reincarnate in a new life meybi in a humman meybi in an animal...
Likewise, in that case, I'd say death is nothing to fear, simply because again, our awareness would be eternal, like above.
Certainly it may suck being an animal since we for some reason (except the need of food of course) haven't invented proper animal rights, yet it'd always only be temporary.
Something about reincarnation that's worth noting though.
Assume all existance (consciousness, awareness) is based upon something defined physically in our brain (or somewhere inside us).
Now this will most likely be some kind of configuration of cells that creates this phenomena, and as it is, there'll always be a limited number of these kind of configurations, which means there's a limited number of existance.
Yet however, as we're 6 billions people, and growing (a lot since the dawns of time), it's also most likely there are so many configurations, that the same configuration happening twice in the same life time is extremely unlikely (therefore we don't experience two bodies, one mind, phenomenas).
However, if this is true, it does also mean, as long as there's something through which we can express ourself (our inner observer), you'll already be immortal, as your awareness will come back again and again, over very long time periods.
A problem being, of course, you don't have the memory restored, another is that the time periods may be so long, that all life in the universe have ceased to exist at that time.
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or even worser and our souls are damned to conglomerate in a chaotic dimension a chasm in the histoid of reallity...
I can't see how that's bad at all, on the other hand, I don't know the meaning of the word conglomerate, and I haven't heard about it in my language either.
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or will this mystery never be solved...
I certainly hope it will, no matter the result, it's required for us to be able to define what produces awareness in the first place.
However, as it goes, as long as there's a risk of there being nothing at all, in all eternity, I'd probably never be settled, before this risk is eliminated.
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best case scenario: we make our own afterlife.
worst case scenario: there is nothing, and we are all aware of it.
I agree with best case scenario, and I disagree with worst case scenario, in my opinion, there's nothing, which means we're not even aware anymore.
If I just sat in a dark room, with no emotions or senses (sight, sound, etc.), but I was aware of I was someone, somewhere, then that would pretty much do for me, and would be very positive, do you know why?
Because then, our awareness would already be immortal, and it'd most of all be a question of how we'd get this awareness to reexpress itself in our world.
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
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posted October 13, 2009 04:17 PM |
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There is no soul.
There, I said it.
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TheDeath
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posted October 13, 2009 04:23 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 16:29, 13 Oct 2009.
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OhforfSake: that's just plain ridiculous about the "good guy" part. Do you think the police are bad guys because they crack down on criminals?
You're talking childishly as if being good means being fools.
EDIT: alright here's what. God doesn't accept "bad guys" in Heaven. That's called the Earth and I think you're familiar with it. Of course if those guys are actually honest about being purely good, God can forgive them. But most aren't actually honest when repenting...
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted October 13, 2009 04:46 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
best case scenario: we make our own afterlife.
worst case scenario: there is nothing, and we are all aware of it.
I agree with best case scenario, and I disagree with worst case scenario, in my opinion, there's nothing, which means we're not even aware anymore.
If I just sat in a dark room, with no emotions or senses (sight, sound, etc.), but I was aware of I was someone, somewhere, then that would pretty much do for me, and would be very positive, do you know why?
Because then, our awareness would already be immortal, and it'd most of all be a question of how we'd get this awareness to reexpress itself in our world.
what I am is that we are aware of the nothingness whilst were in it. nothingingness, for eternity, and we all are horribly conscious of it. there is no-one around us to help us, we are trapped in our own patch of infinity, crying out for help, looking for hope, but there is nothing!!!!!!!!!
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TheDeath
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posted October 13, 2009 04:50 PM |
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If there's no soul, how can you be aware when your brain doesn't exist anymore?
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ohforfsake
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posted October 13, 2009 06:20 PM |
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OhforfSake: that's just plain ridiculous about the "good guy" part. Do you think the police are bad guys because they crack down on criminals?
You're talking childishly as if being good means being fools.
EDIT: alright here's what. God doesn't accept "bad guys" in Heaven. That's called the Earth and I think you're familiar with it. Of course if those guys are actually honest about being purely good, God can forgive them. But most aren't actually honest when repenting...
I can see it was badly put in my above text, so let me rephrase in a very simple manner.
Let's say you exist in a community where every single action is reversible. (I.e. some very nice future, or at least something God has the power to do, according to what I've learned about God).
Now let's look at why we've punishment in our system, in our system, everyone, no matter if you're a criminal, a victim, or a third person, is equal, which means equal rights.
So the whole idea, is for us to have these basic rights (which have been defining in the other thread), and for a community to exist, we've to do something about those people, who simply can't stop being criminals.
So what do we do about criminals? We don't punish them for the sake of revenge, that doesn't help anything (it doesn't make the crime undone, it's not reversible most often). No we isolate the criminal (jail) and then we try to actively change the criminals view on the world, so this person can be a part of the community once again.
Then there's of course minor crimes that produces fines, etc., but that's not the point.
However, now imagine, you've the power to make everything reversible, and likewise you've the power to decide wether or not anyone should have what they want, or not, etc.
If you've this power, the only truely good thing to do, would be to first of all, make all bad actions reversed, which means if someone have hurted someone, you reverse it, and the person is over the pain, etc.
Secondly, you'd not care if someone is inherent evil or not, as you've the power to first of all, make certain this evilness will never be able to do anything evil, and secondly, still have the power for everyone to get what they want, you of course do that, which in short means, everyone, no matter actions and beliefs, go to heaven.
If not, we would either not be talking about someone who's good, or not be talking about someone who's almighty, if you combine those, the only good thing to do, is to let everyone go to heaven, letting anyone be in a state that's not necessary (i.e. torment), for the sake of revenge for someone (feelings) or any other reason, that's not to make certain everyone have the basic rights (which, with the power of God, is no problem), then that's pr. definition evil.
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what I am is that we are aware of the nothingness whilst were in it. nothingingness, for eternity, and we all are horribly conscious of it. there is no-one around us to help us, we are trapped in our own patch of infinity, crying out for help, looking for hope, but there is nothing!!!!!!!!!
I think I understood you the first time, and I stand by what I wrote.
Let me ask you this, what would you prefer of the following two:
1) A world where there's no awareness, but everything else that is of today (not only you, but no one is consciously aware).
2) Or a world where there's nothing, except for your own awareness?
I know I'd choose 2) each and every time, simply because if there's no existance, then everything else doesn't really matter.
Btw. the way you describe the eternal nothingness is filled with emotions, you write "horribly", "crying" and "hope". These cannot exist if there's awareness but nothing else, then you'd have to include emotions, but for emotions like those you describe to have meaning, you'd also have to include memory, and as we go, we'd soon have a full functional brain, etc. and then it's not nothingness at all.
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Geny
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posted October 13, 2009 06:26 PM |
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What bixie meant was nothing except for you. Your soul, spirit, brain, call it what you want. The point is that you'll get bored to death... only you're already dead... Skull joke!
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pei
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Fresh Air.
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posted October 13, 2009 06:46 PM |
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Obvious, we become Shinigamis!
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antipaladin
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of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted October 13, 2009 07:27 PM |
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its clear that the afterlife is much better,then the living,due to the fact no one came back from it.
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types in obscure english
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bixie
Promising
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted October 13, 2009 09:56 PM |
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What bixie meant was nothing except for you. Your soul, spirit, brain, call it what you want. The point is that you'll get bored to death... only you're already dead... Skull joke!
Lol
I would actually think it would be worse if you could feel emotions, cause you would only have one in varying degrees, depression and madness.
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Rarensu
Known Hero
Formerly known as RTI
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posted October 14, 2009 09:06 AM |
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best case scenario: we make our own afterlife.
Humans are unwise and self-destructive. If you let them choose for themselves they will do something regrettable 99% of the time. It's bad enough when your actions have a lifetime of consequences, but we're talking about all eternity here! Most dumb-asses out there would make a heaven with a beer volcano or other such nonsense. It may be better than earth life if we choose our own afterlife, but it is far from best. The second best case scenario is that the afterlife was chosen by third party with infinite wisdom and love, but the best case scenario is that we somehow gain enough wisdom to make the right choice ourselves without help. Only a few humans have ever reached that kind of purity. The rest of us are just going to have to hope for a benevolent deity.
PS I don't believe in a benevolent deity. I believe in something far less optimistic.
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Sincerely,
A Proponent of Spelling, Grammar, Punctuation, and Courtesy.
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ohforfsake
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posted October 14, 2009 12:42 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
best case scenario: we make our own afterlife.
Humans are unwise and self-destructive. If you let them choose for themselves they will do something regrettable 99% of the time. It's bad enough when your actions have a lifetime of consequences, but we're talking about all eternity here!
One of us are misunderstdning what was meant by this statement, I understand it as the power to change whatever you want, at every time, this means that nothing is irreversible. Whereby you don't only learn from your mistakes, you actually get to undo them.
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The second best case scenario is that the afterlife was chosen by third party with infinite wisdom and love, but the best case scenario is that we somehow gain enough wisdom to make the right choice ourselves without help.
Knowledge (or wisdom if you like), and gaining knowledge is a relative simple process to describe, requring the ability to unconsciously remember definitions and experiences, the ability to evaluate likelyhood, and the ability to actually be able to test your own ideas.
It's basicly the scientific method, you have an idea of how something is working, you test it, you note the data, and now you've a new level of likelyhood you set to this knowledge, that's of course if you can get it into your long term memory.
So for anyone to gain the wisdom required to actually be able to make something they'll be everpleased with, they can only do so, by first of all getting told how this must be, secondly getting convinced of this is true (the likelyhood part) and finally actually be able to remember each step, though unconsciously, so this person always can justify this knowledge.
However, as it is with nature, or from what we know so far, there's no set of definitions that you can simply get through mathmatics that will describe the ground premisis of nature, no you've to actually make experiments, do the tests, before you can get the definitions straight, and in the real world, the biggest dilemma is the correctness of the definition, as we can always only look in small scale (locally) and thereby never be certain we've derived a global law, but we can be certain to the degree of what the amount of experiements (likelyhood) that the law is sufficient for the area we need.
Thereby, gaining this infinite wisdom requires of you to actually have the ability to find out how the world will go, given your current knowledge about yourself, because knowledge doesn't need to be true, it needs to be challenged. However if you cannot make mistakes (nothing is irreversible, fear of regret, etc.) you'll never gain any knowledge, you'll believe your current knowledge to be absolute, not needed to be tested, and this will actually make people stop following this knowledge, for the doubt will always be there.
So if you want some kind of infinite wisdom, the only way is to let people actually try several things that may or may not follow this infinite wisdom, to simply test if it's likely to be true, otherwise we're just slaves of someones grand idea.
(I.e. being told the truth, unquestionable, you must always be able to question, and thereby you must always be able to test, the best we can do, is to make certain the tests are reversible, which means developing technology and gaining the sufficient energy).
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Only a few humans have ever reached that kind of purity. The rest of us are just going to have to hope for a benevolent deity.
I doubt this, but if so, then:
#1 Convince me of this infinite wisdom them.
#2 Who've achieved it, and what convinced you of so?
It got a little long, my apologies. 
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TheDeath
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posted October 14, 2009 05:50 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 17:50, 14 Oct 2009.
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However, now imagine, you've the power to make everything reversible, and likewise you've the power to decide wether or not anyone should have what they want, or not, etc.
If you've this power, the only truely good thing to do, would be to first of all, make all bad actions reversed, which means if someone have hurted someone, you reverse it, and the person is over the pain, etc.
Secondly, you'd not care if someone is inherent evil or not, as you've the power to first of all, make certain this evilness will never be able to do anything evil, and secondly, still have the power for everyone to get what they want, you of course do that, which in short means, everyone, no matter actions and beliefs, go to heaven.
Oh great another one of those "God makes us do X or Y" arguments which contradicts freedom and free will 
Do you think a guy who created a computer, which is 100% good because it 100% obeys the master (and doesn't do anything bad), is more "loving" than a parent who has a kid? (which can obvious rebel and sometimes does bad things)
Let's replace all our kids with computer CPUs that will make them do everything good! It's surely the best sign of love we can give them, right?
Kids don't really like it when you try to change them. Sorry to say but that won't make a person "loving" at all. Neither will having an army of obeying robots.
People have a twisted definition of what is loving. Why don't they think of analogies before speaking up? 
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ohforfsake
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posted October 14, 2009 05:54 PM |
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Oh great another one of those "God makes us do X or Y" arguments which contradicts freedom and free will
I understand the rest of your post based on this statement, and this statement based on my post.
If that's true, you've missed my point, for making it clear where the confusion arises, please make it clear where you see me write that you'll control the wants of others, as my intention was always, for everyone, to maintain their free will.
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TheDeath
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posted October 14, 2009 06:03 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 18:04, 14 Oct 2009.
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If you remove bad things, you remove freedom. If you put someone in jail, you literally remove MOST things in his life, and most choices he can make.
People aren't that happy without freedom, even if you say it's "for their own good". Remember the Soviet Union?
BTW Hell=/=Jail. i think God, as the "owner" of Heaven, can restrict access to his private club which makes it blissful because it's full of good people only.
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ohforfsake
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posted October 14, 2009 06:47 PM |
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If you remove bad things, you remove freedom.
Making "bad" things impossible is not equal to removing freedom in the broad term, as it'll most likely increase freedom from everyone else.
Looking at the single person, who however it's not possible to hit someone with a club, sure this single person have that freedom removed.
If that's not what you meant, you've to come with an example.
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If you put someone in jail, you literally remove MOST things in his life, and most choices he can make.
Jail is for isolation (and rehab), due to lack of ressources, we cannot offer the same standards inside of jail as of outside of jail, which should hold true for everything, except from what you're isolated from in the first place.
That's however a problem with lack of ressources, I don't see how it's related to what I wrote.
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People aren't that happy without freedom, even if you say it's "for their own good". Remember the Soviet Union?
Again, this is implying, as I understand it, that you're removing someones free will, which I have never written I believe (and if I've please show me where, so we can get this confusion settled).
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i think God, as the "owner" of Heaven, can restrict access to his private club which makes it blissful because it's full of good people only.
I believe from what you write that you see Heaven as Gods private property.
I however believe that the definition of heaven is the system where everyone is in some kind of "ultimate state", this states defines what people sees heaven as, if it's the freedom to get what you want, or something else I don't know, but I can't imagine people really want anything else, than what they want. (Certainly wants changes, but no one is implying that you're held to your decisions).
Finally, here's what I wrote earlier in a short version, maybe it'll make it clear:
Given you've the "ultimate" power, and given you're defined as "truely good", then you'll let everyone into heaven, no matter what they've done, and what their beliefs are, simply because:
A) There's no reason to not do so, as you've the power, you can make their "evil doings" impossible (you still have your free will, eventhough it's impossible to kill someone, simply because this person is unkillable, etc.), and that's still with them containing their free will.
B) Not letting them in, meaning, in the context of this thread, that they'd go into some kind of eternal torment, if you're truely the good guy, you would not want that to happen to anyone, no matter what they've done, the only thing that stops you from acting is a lack of power. But hey! You've the power.
Both A) and B) are saying the exact same thing, but from 2 different view points, maybe that'll make my point more clear, and show that it's not limiting the freedom, nor the will, of anyone, unless you define heaven as such a place, and in that case, I cannot help how your definition is.
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TheDeath
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posted October 14, 2009 07:11 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 19:13, 14 Oct 2009.
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Making "bad" things impossible is not equal to removing freedom in the broad term, as it'll most likely increase freedom from everyone else.
Looking at the single person, who however it's not possible to hit someone with a club, sure this single person have that freedom removed.
As far as I know, people in jail can't harm others anymore.
As far as I know, they do not have freedom anymore.
And yes making bad things impossible is equal to removing freedom -- and actually, it doesn't even remove the freedom to THINK about them, which is just as bad and not welcome in Heaven.
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Jail is for isolation (and rehab), due to lack of ressources, we cannot offer the same standards inside of jail as of outside of jail, which should hold true for everything, except from what you're isolated from in the first place.
That's however a problem with lack of ressources, I don't see how it's related to what I wrote.
"You don't obey society's standards, you get isolated to an Island -- and you'll have to deal with problems yourself."
You'll also have to deal with the Devil
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Again, this is implying, as I understand it, that you're removing someones free will, which I have never written I believe (and if I've please show me where, so we can get this confusion settled).
So you mean, you would actually let people THINK of bad things, but not be able to do them? Sorry but that won't allow entrance to Heaven either.
(not being able to do them though, restricts their freedom, but not their free will since they can still think about it, and think as them being a good choice to take)
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I however believe that the definition of heaven is the system where everyone is in some kind of "ultimate state", this states defines what people sees heaven as, if it's the freedom to get what you want, or something else I don't know, but I can't imagine people really want anything else, than what they want. (Certainly wants changes, but no one is implying that you're held to your decisions).
Actually, you see, Heaven is not a automatically-magicaly place that will make people happy or in the "ultimate state". It is that way because crooks are not allowed access. A "private club" with no criminals will appear very peaceful and blissful, but that doesn't mean it's that way because the club is magical or special: it's because criminals are left out.
So saying that "people should let criminals inside to be blissful too" makes totally no sense at all, as then, you would turn it into the "outside world"
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Given you've the "ultimate" power, and given you're defined as "truely good", then you'll let everyone into heaven, no matter what they've done, and what their beliefs are, simply because:
A) There's no reason to not do so, as you've the power, you can make their "evil doings" impossible (you still have your free will, eventhough it's impossible to kill someone, simply because this person is unkillable, etc.), and that's still with them containing their free will.
No this is fatally flawed.
Do you know what is called when you can think of something, of doing something (like bad), aka you have free will, but you have no way of doing it?
It's called jail.
That's the definition of love to you?
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B) Not letting them in, meaning, in the context of this thread, that they'd go into some kind of eternal torment, if you're truely the good guy, you would not want that to happen to anyone, no matter what they've done, the only thing that stops you from acting is a lack of power. But hey! You've the power.
No sorry totally wrong, see my point above about the "private club" and "letting criminals in".
Yeah, what if I have the power to replace my rebellious children with artificial robots that will 100% obey everything I tell them?
Should I do it, given I have the power? Is that loving to you?
or maybe, I can make them THINK of bad things, but not being ABLE to do them at ALL. That would translate to "slavery".
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ohforfsake
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posted October 14, 2009 07:22 PM |
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I'm going to log off for today soon, so the answer will be short, if you want it in better detail (with quotes, etc.) then I can produce that tomorrow, that's if you want it of course.
#1 Where does love suddenly come into all this?
#2 Your definition of heaven seems to be very different than mine (as I understand your arguments of heaven not beeing possible if "bad" people gets to enter), in my definition, there's no problem if "bad" people enters.
#3 Thinking bad stuff, does not make you bad, our thoughts are private, and is only what defines us, relatives to ourself, when we're talking about evil/good people, we evulate them upon their actions, no matter what they might have thought.
E.g. you're not gay/pedophile or whatever it may be, simply because you think of these things, relative to others, you're first that, relative to others, when you perform the action.
Relative to yourself if of course something completely else, however why should others care, when it's not relative to them, and if they did, they'd be seriously reducing this persons freedom of free will (given their care got consequences).
#4 Many of your examples, I don't follow, seems to me to be oversimplistic or not logical true, but I may be wrong, I'll ask further into them tomorrow.
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