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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Haven faction concepts: When the Empire changed its dynasty
Thread: Haven faction concepts: When the Empire changed its dynasty
landsknecht
landsknecht


Adventuring Hero
Askin' for war :p and payments
posted October 23, 2009 11:26 AM

Haven faction concepts: When the Empire changed its dynasty

Ok there has to be some changes in Haven factions

Heroes
Might: Knight
Magic: Cleric

Creatures
- Militia Pikeman(basic melee infantry, armed with pole weapons, anti-cavalry)
- Crossbowman Longbowman (basic ranged unit, because archers are trained from their very child hoods and reqiures strengh training. while crossbows are much easier to train)
- Griffon Griffon rider
- Man at arms Footman (Line infantry, Tank unit, always come with big shields)
- Monk Exorcist (casts "clerical" spells, disable enemy debuffs, do extra damages against "unhholy" units)
- Esquire Paladin (armored cav, jousting bonus)
- Angel Arch Angel

whatchu think?

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isabel
isabel


Known Hero
Dragonblessed
posted October 23, 2009 12:56 PM

Looks pretty much like the current one except the tier of Griffin and Footman reversed. What is the significance of such change?

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Landsknecht
Landsknecht


Adventuring Hero
Askin' for war :p and payments
posted October 23, 2009 07:14 PM

I'd say abilities.

1. If cav units have jousting bonus, why can't pike units have a methodology to fight cavs? i mean... faster the cav unit charges pikemen, stronger cav can take damage since pike formations can pierce cav's horse or even horsemen before cav gets the benefits of jousting speeds
2. oops i've forgot to say that monks can do heal too! (he's caster)
3. Longbowmen can either choose to shoot twice or do multiple shots once each round
4. Peasants shouldn't belong to any towns should they? i'd rather see special rules for peasants where they don't belong to any factions but can be turned to some kind of basic units of any factions.

ok if you don't like this proposal
this is the new list (ok it maybe closer to H4)

1. Man at arms Conscript ; basic melee combat unit, armed with hatchet, and buckler, wears basic leather clothing, has anger ability
2. Crossbowman Longbowman
3. Spearman Pikeman (Anti-cav, focus on offense)
4. Swordsman Esquire (Portrayed as being line infantry, comes with swords and shields, has "formation-breaking" debuff ability -- each attack has a chance to decrease enemy attacks to 25%!!! and may decreases morale (-1))
5. Monk Exorcist (Demon and Undead killers!)
6. Cavalier Paladin (cav, jousting attacks, Paladin rides Unicorn! and may do blinding attacks)
7. Angel Arch Angel

now Griffs are gone! (it is now "Unicorn Empire" instead.. look at Heroes5 finale)

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted October 23, 2009 08:09 PM
Edited by MattII at 20:11, 23 Oct 2009.

Men-at-Arms should be above concript, not the other way around, also, drop Exorcist, and make Monk the upgrade of Priest. Oh, and peasants do belong to Haven, since it's the only town that would reasonably take them (they are humans).

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Eden
Eden


Adventuring Hero
posted October 23, 2009 08:21 PM

Nice list, cool take with the Monk (Evil killing machine) still think the humans can make a better tier 7 then the Angel...but oh well.

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted October 24, 2009 10:59 AM

Quote:
Men-at-Arms should be above concript, not the other way around, also, drop Exorcist, and make Monk the upgrade of Priest. Oh, and peasants do belong to Haven, since it's the only town that would reasonably take them (they are humans).


I think peasants could also be neutral again like in H3.

for Priest->Monk: I really dislike this, a monk is something COMPLETELY different than a priest!!!

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted October 24, 2009 11:30 AM

Quote:
for Priest->Monk: I really dislike this, a monk is something COMPLETELY different than a priest!!!
So what's your opinion of Monk->Exorcist?

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted October 24, 2009 12:07 PM

It' not much more likely.

What about MonkAbbot?

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted October 24, 2009 07:30 PM

Quote:
What about MonkAbbot?
Nah, that's like Soldier->Captain, it's just not going to work.

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted October 24, 2009 10:18 PM

? Why not. You upgrade a unit to a better equipped, better trained, very special or higher ranked form of itself (well, that's the original heroes of might and magic upograding way).
f.e.:
Centaur -> Centaur Captain (Rank + Equipment)
Medusa -> Medusa Queen (Rank)
Swordman -> Crusader (Training + Equipment)
Green Dragon -> Gold Dragon/Emerald Dragon (special form)

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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Iceskating Uphill
posted October 25, 2009 03:00 AM
Edited by blizzardboy at 03:06, 25 Oct 2009.

Yea but the Heroes 3 way sucked. Having 20 nagas in your army, all of them queens, sounded silly. Same with 20 efreet sultans, etc. They avoided naming units that way in Heroes 5 for the better. Stuff like Sworrdsman > Crusader sounds better, although I agree that monk > priest doesn't seem like a very good transition. I would do something like friar > priest, or monk > zealot.

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Shyranis
Shyranis


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 25, 2009 03:35 AM

If you wipe out 30 Abbots, that's like killing off the leadership for the whole religion.
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted October 25, 2009 03:54 AM

Quote:
Yea but the Heroes 3 way sucked. Having 20 nagas in your army, all of them queens, sounded silly. Same with 20 efreet sultans, etc. They avoided naming units that way in Heroes 5 for the better. Stuff like Sworrdsman > Crusader sounds better [...]
Yeah, but why stop nit-picking there? What crusade are those crusaders on? And wasn't there only one Minotaur, one Cerberus and one Medusa (who was actually a gorgon, which is not a bull)?
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted October 25, 2009 09:42 AM

Quote:
Yeah, but why stop nit-picking there? What crusade are those crusaders on?
Quote:
The one against the demons every time they emerge presumably, although they could possibly do one against Necropolis.

Quote:
And wasn't there only one Minotaur, one Cerberus and one Medusa (who was actually a gorgon, which is not a bull)?
True, but HoMM isn't meant to be based on earth, so these bits don't have to apply.

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted October 25, 2009 11:44 AM

But the others have?

Well, of course I get your point. The abbot-thing was just an idea.

what about

Novice > Monk or Novice > Priest?

for the swordman>crusader thing
...not a fan of it really, unless you use alternative upgrades. Crusaders are almost too special, fixing so much on the religious aspect.
what about swordman > Heavy Infantery/HonorGuard or Swordmaster?

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Asheero
Asheero


posted October 25, 2009 01:57 PM

I think there should be war dogs in there... and armored dogs.
____________

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted October 25, 2009 02:28 PM

Quote:
The one against the demons every time they emerge presumably, although they could possibly do one against Necropolis.


Not likely in the least; if it's the Kreegans, they arrived years after the H3 crusaders existed and any other demons were expelled about 900 years before that. Necropolis isn't plausible either since nobody ever waged a direct war against Deyja before Shadow of Death.

I guess it's most likely they were on a racially-motivated crusade against Elves from during and after the Timber Wars, because another Erathia vs AvLee conflict was gearing up again just before H3: Armageddon's Blade. Despite all the alliances and peacemaking, Erathia was at times a dreadfully bigoted place
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 25, 2009 03:09 PM

Nah, I think that Griffins look and should be more powerful then some basic infantry like Footmen
Longbowman should be an alternate upgrade.

My idea;

1. Footmen-Squire/Swordsman (because a Pikeman looks more powerful then a Footman to me)
2. Archer-Longbowman/Crossbowman
3. Pikeman-Halberider/Phalanx
4. Griffin-Royal Griffin/Imperial Griffin
5. Monk-Inquisitor/Zealot
6. Cavalier-Champion/Paladin
7. Angel-Archangel/Seraph

Footmen do a Basic bash ability. Squires also shield allies. Footmen and Squires can be used to assist Archers early. Swordsman are more offensive. They do a prescense which increases Attack to surroanding allies and they also have a chance to attack twice.

Archers can do Rain of Arrows. Longbowman shoots twice. Crossbowmen cant do Rain of Arrows but they have Shoots Twice and their shoots pierces through Defense.

Pikemen have a long attack. Halberiders always attack first (if an enemy attacks then the Halberiders will strike first anyway and then retaliate). Phalanx can do Spearwall which is basically that summoning spell, Blade Wall or something.

Griffins and upgrades are same as in H5.

Monk has No Melee Penalty and Shoots.
Inquisitor has lots of buffs.
Zealot is melee and can purge (dispel) and cast offensive spells.

Cavaliers, Champions and Paladins are same as in H5.

Angels, Archangels and Seraphs are same as in H5.
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body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted October 25, 2009 04:22 PM

Quote:
Footmen do a Basic bash ability. Squires also shield allies. Footmen and Squires can be used to assist Archers early. Swordsman are more offensive. They do a prescense which increases Attack to surroanding allies and they also have a chance to attack twice.


okay, but not perfect. Very untraditional to put swordmen so low. btw, xerox, I think the reason why footmen were always mid-tier creatures not low-tier creatures in HoMM is probably that they usually were rather heavy armored and looked rather trained. ...and a tier 1 Unit strengthening all surrounding units is a bit strong or not?

Quote:
Archers can do Rain of Arrows. Longbowman shoots twice. Crossbowmen cant do Rain of Arrows but they have Shoots Twice and their shoots pierces through Defense.


Both Longbowman and crossbowman seem unlikely to me to shoot twice, teh second even more. Both, and especially the crossbow, are rather slow weapons, not quick to load and not easy to handle as far as I know. Better would be imo: Longbowman ignores distance and has more attack and ini, but Crossbowman has an "armour-piercing shot" and ignores distance, too.

Quote:
Pikemen have a long attack. Halberiders always attack first (if an enemy attacks then the Halberiders will strike first anyway and then retaliate). Phalanx can do Spearwall which is basically that summoning spell, Blade Wall or something.

Ok. Yet I would maybe make soemthing more out of the phalanx, either shields or soem formation/discipline thing.

Quote:
Griffins and upgrades are same as in H5.


Some more creative things could be done, but ok for now.

Quote:
Monk has No Melee Penalty and Shoots.
Inquisitor has lots of buffs.
Zealot is melee and can purge (dispel) and cast offensive spells.

Monk ok. Inquisitor could also have some curses and imo purging fits better with inquisitor.

Quote:
Cavaliers, Champions and Paladins are same as in H5.

Angels, Archangels and Seraphs are same as in H5.


Very creative
But ok, there is not much important to change, here.

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