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Doomforge
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posted November 25, 2009 12:50 PM |
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Salamandre, if his CDs are not bought, he also gets nothing. Yet, when I just don't buy the CD, you suprisingly don't argue I should, because he won't afford his instrument.
If you want to stay fair to that thinking, you honestly SHOULD try to convince me ALSO in that case.
Besidesm what is this, socialism? Why am I forced to pay for his instruments?
If he can't get the best, let him play on worse. Alternatively, he can take offence and quit music. Good riddance.
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Salamandre
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posted November 25, 2009 12:53 PM |
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Nope, because if the law would be FAIR and punish those who share/own illegal things, you would not be able to get a single movie, CD or book other than buying them. And then we talk again about "I don't buy it". You will have no choice but buy, if do not want to finish like a prothozaur whose typical discussion is about weather and raining outside.
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Doomforge
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posted November 25, 2009 12:59 PM |
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But the discussion is about why law would end the so called "unfairness" in the first place.
In the situation you describe, I would NOT buy music. I'd listen to youtube and internet radios. Once they got outlawed, I'd listen to nothing at all.
But in the current situation, the problem is as follows: (here I explain why I find the "market argument" WEAK. JJ, Cor? Would you comment, please? YOu're pretty good at logic, after all.)
The artist is discouraged because he doesn't get as much as he wants.
You say, this is bad, because the more encouraged he is, the more we get.
This means ALL actions leading to his discouragement are BAD for you or society.
This means both illegal downloads, or simply ignoring his products, as they both obviously have EXACTLY the same outcome, are BOTH EQUALLY bad.
How come ignoring someone's products isn't condemned in society, then? It does exactly the same: discourages the artist. You get less and you get worse quality because he's discouraged by low sales.
Why don't you promote every single product then, buy as much as you can? If you don't, why do you condemn people who "harm" the artist in the same way, just with different method?
Idk, I find this argument very weak.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 25, 2009 01:03 PM |
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Look, let's say a producer puts out on sale an item for one man. Someone comes and buys it. The producer now has the gratitude of one man. The uses it, gets bored and gives to someone else. Now the producer has the gratitude of one man and only one man is using the product. Fair. How he uses it doesn't matter as long as he is the only one. Now that man multiplies the product somehow (no matter how) and gives a copy to his friend. Now the producer has the gratitude of one man, but two men are enjoying his work. Fair? Not really. Now multiply it by a million instead of two.
What was next? "Chaining"? If people don't give a damn about the product and are willing to wait months before others get bored with it then the product itself is a failure and the company should go bankrupt (or change the product).
Sharing? As in multiplying? Already addressed it. As in lending? Still the rule of "One man bought, one man uses" is in tact.
Making legal copies and giving it to others? It's not really legal. (at least not always) People just don't give a damn.
Youtube? Not everything that's on there is strictly legal as well.
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Salamandre
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posted November 25, 2009 01:05 PM |
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Right, you don't have to buy x albums. But eventually you will buy an album you like from an established artist. And be sure a part the money you invest in this will serve to promote young padawans you even did not hear about.
You just can't say "good riddance" if he has not money to pursue what is talented for. You received this scholarship because obviously the society considers you having qualities. They could also tell you "good riddance" but they did not, thus you will have a future.
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Doomforge
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posted November 25, 2009 01:10 PM |
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Quote:
Look, let's say a producer puts out on sale an item for one man. Someone comes and buys it. The producer now has the gratitude of one man. The uses it, gets bored and gives to someone else. Now the producer has the gratitude of one man and only one man is using the product. Fair.
Let's say a producer puts out a sale on an item for one man. Someone comes and buys it. The producer now has the gratitude of one man. The uses it, gets bored, copies it dumps the product in the toilet. Puts the copy on the internet, and somebody downloads it, but just one person because the server goes dead. Now the producer has the gratitude of one man and only one man is using the product. Fair.
Well, according to your logic, that is. 
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If people don't give a damn about the product (...) the company should go bankrupt
Exactly, my friend. Why do I still hear about that something discourages the company if - assuming there is no interest - they should go bankrupt?
Decide - whether you support them, or not. Right now you're "a bit of the former" and "a bit of the latter", depending on the context  (if it was you that was saying about the market, I lost track honestly!)
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Youtube? Not everything that's on there is strictly legal as well.
In fact nearly nothing is. Do you use YT and watch copyright-protected stuff? if yes, I must sadly say you are a hypocrite 
Nice try.
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 25, 2009 01:15 PM |
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The argument can only be considered for instances when you wouldn't have wanted to buy the album anyway. Most people download music that they would buy, but just take the cheaper option (myself included  )
The bottom line is, regardless of whether you would buy it or not, if everyone just downloaded it for free then obviously they wouldn't make any money.
It seems as though we are heading for a time when rock stars have to find time for touring while working a day job.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 25, 2009 01:17 PM |
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For your scenario: First of all, if you put a copy on the internet that means that you still have a copy. It doesn't magically disappear from your computer just because you uploaded it. If it would nobody would have any problems.
I wasn't the one talking about the market.
Hypocrite? Not exactly. I never said I didn't download anything (if you really want to know I'm doing it right now) more or less for the same reason you say too. However, I have no illusions - I know that what I'm doing is not exactly right and I thought that that's what the discussion is all about.
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Doomforge
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posted November 25, 2009 01:20 PM |
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Quote:
The argument can only be considered for instances when you wouldn't have wanted to buy the album anyway. Most people download music that they would buy, but just take the cheaper option (myself included )
That's what I'm talking about
But those instances aren't taken into consideration, people automatically judge all people downloading as thieves.
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The bottom line is, regardless of whether you would buy it or not, if everyone just downloaded it for free then obviously they wouldn't make any money.
While that is true, it's the same for if nobody took interest in the product. While this is obviously bad for the producer, I see no laws preventing "no interest" from happening, but I see laws trying to punish "illegal downloads", though. Why? Both are the same for the producer.
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It seems as though we are heading for a time when rock stars have to find time for touring while working a day job.
I wouldn't mind. Seeing how most of them live, it's ridiculous anyway. What, they can't stand the thought of doing what they love & earning GOOD money for it instead of RIDICULOUS money for it? Not my problem ;>
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Doomforge
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posted November 25, 2009 01:25 PM |
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Quote:
For your scenario: First of all, if you put a copy on the internet that means that you still have a copy. It doesn't magically disappear from your computer just because you uploaded it. If it would nobody would have any problems.
You can delete it and throw the game to garbage. Do you still have every piece of data you've downloaded in your life?
What I find wrong in the reasoning you used is: for each legal owner who lost interest, there is one pirate justified, because the total amount of people grateful for the game equals number of games sold, so it's fair. If the "gratitude" remains even after getting rid of the copy, that means lending or selling to someone is unfair. In both cases, the logic sucks
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I wasn't the one talking about the market.
Sorry then, too many people giving their anti-piracy arguments. i guess I only have TheDeath and OFFS on my side
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Hypocrite? Not exactly. I never said I didn't download anything (if you really want to know I'm doing it right now) more or less for the same reason you say too. However, I have no illusions - I know that what I'm doing is not exactly right and I thought that that's what the discussion is all about.
I am by no means entitled to judge you, but why are you doing something you know is morally wrong?
I sincerely think I'm doing no harm by downloading.
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Salamandre
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posted November 25, 2009 01:26 PM |
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The term "ridiculous" has to be defined regardless every situation. In France people find ridiculous high that the president gains 20k euros/month but accept that a soccer player can have 100 times more just for following a ball. The jealousy is blinding common sense.
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I sincerely think I'm doing no harm by downloading.
Dramatic. I guess you agree that if everyone was acting as you the consequences would be dramatic.
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Doomforge
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posted November 25, 2009 01:30 PM |
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No, because they would be glad to donate a sum of money AFTER playing the game, as a form of gratitude, as I am. Of course, not as big as the game price, I can't afford that much, but it would still probably be more $$$ for the producers than it is now.
So "everyone with my mentality" wouldn't be that bad.
As for the jealousy... I don't find it jealosy myself because I don't care for absurd amounts of money. I just find it weird that mere entertainers earn more than people who save lives (doctors, for instance) - many, many times more. Who should get bigger reward for their work, seriously?
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Geny
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posted November 25, 2009 01:38 PM |
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Quote:
but why are you doing something you know is morally wrong?
Because I still want to play the game/hear the song/etc. even if I don't have money to buy it. That being said I realize that I'm using someone work without expressing my gratitude to him.
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del_diablo
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posted November 25, 2009 01:38 PM |
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Quote:
It seems as though we are heading for a time when rock stars have to find time for touring while working a day job.
The only way to actually earn decent amounts of money for a musician is usually by touring(selling tv-shirts and effects), or getting a job to play at a club(which is fulltime work).
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Look, let's say a producer puts out on sale an item for one man. Someone comes and buys it. The producer now has the gratitude of one man. The uses it, gets bored and gives to someone else. Now the producer has the gratitude of one man and only one man is using the product. Fair. How he uses it doesn't matter as long as he is the only one. Now that man multiplies the product somehow (no matter how) and gives a copy to his friend. Now the producer has the gratitude of one man, but two men are enjoying his work. Fair? Not really. Now multiply it by a million instead of two.
But you forget that some of those 1 million people might actually enjoy this, and thus buy it.
Lets say I listen to the radio, I hear a few songs, BUT I don't buy any records from those artists. What is the difference here of listening to the radio and downloading this? In most cases you would need to buy a CD to get .flac quality on the audio anyhow.
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Salamandre
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posted November 25, 2009 01:38 PM |
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No, because they would be glad to donate a sum of money AFTER playing the game, as a form of gratitude, as I am. Of course, not as big as the game price, I can't afford that much, but it would still probably be more $$$ for the producers than it is now.
In a dream world BS sorry...no one is giving a penny when he can have it for free.
If you can't afford the real price, good riddance, don't play it.
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Geny
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posted November 25, 2009 01:40 PM |
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Quote:
But you forget that some of those 1 million people might actually enjoy this, and thus buy it.
Why would they buy something they already have?
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del_diablo
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posted November 25, 2009 01:40 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
No, because they would be glad to donate a sum of money AFTER playing the game, as a form of gratitude, as I am. Of course, not as big as the game price, I can't afford that much, but it would still probably be more $$$ for the producers than it is now.
In a dream world BS sorry...no one is giving a penny when he can have it for free.
Nobody would give a penny to Red Cross or Doctors Without Borders, if not for the sake of people actually admirering their work and progress.
Radio for music, is what torrent is for games.
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But you forget that some of those 1 million people might actually enjoy this, and thus buy it.
Why would they buy something they already have?
For 2 reasons:
1. They want more of similar stuff, which means they want to support the artists by buying the CD or go to concerts and get cool effects
2. They want the .flac they don't get of sites.
Why would you ever buy music if you can listen to the radio?
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 25, 2009 01:46 PM |
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If they can't afford the song now they wouldn't be able to afford it after they download it as well.
And I don't have control over what songs I listen to on the radio.
Also, torrent for games is not like radio for music. Demos for games are like radio for music.
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Salamandre
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posted November 25, 2009 01:46 PM |
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Quote:
Why would you ever buy music if you can listen to the radio?
Why would you buy a car if there are bus outside?
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Doomforge
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posted November 25, 2009 02:08 PM |
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That's the reason I don't buy cars. What for if there are buses and trams? Waste of money.
Again, please don't say "nobody". I did donate a few mod makers, and while it wasn't much, I did this because they did a fantastic job and I was grateful for their effort.
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