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dvid
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posted November 25, 2009 10:06 PM |
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In any case, though, I think we have to be realistic. There's nothing companies can really do to stop piracy, so they'll have to turn to other ways of making money.
Even if they can't stop piracy, keeping it illegal would stop a fair amount of people, right?
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 25, 2009 10:21 PM |
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I have a question for doom: you said that probably the main problem you see with downloading is the lack of gratitude towards the creator and I agree. You also said that you are willing to compensate them with what you can afford. Now assuming all the things you wanted us to assume, if you download, say, 5 albums of one band, would you go and buy the 6th one instead of downloading? If the answer is a simple "yes" then so be it, as long as its an honest answer. I really am curious.
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Doomforge
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posted November 25, 2009 10:40 PM |
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I would most likely not be able to afford it.
If I liked the band well enough to like all the songs on the album and could afford it, yes, of course. I wouldn't even need to DL 5 albums in order to buy one, I'd probably buy all of them.
But right now it's sadly impossible.
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dvid
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 25, 2009 10:47 PM |
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I would most likely not be able to afford it.
If I liked the band well enough to like all the songs on the album and could afford it, yes, of course. I wouldn't even need to DL 5 albums in order to buy one, I'd probably buy all of them.
But right now it's sadly impossible.
I'm not trying to sound accusatory, but isn't that basically placing yourself above the artist? Sure, they might not need the money as badly, but just on that argument, couldn't a poor person steal from a rich guy?
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 25, 2009 10:47 PM |
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I would most likely not be able to afford it.
But you said that you would like to give some kind of gratitude. So by that logic you could save a little from each album you download and then actually buy one.
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mvassilev
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posted November 25, 2009 10:50 PM |
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on that argument, couldn't a poor person steal from a rich guy?
Unfortunately, many here would say yes.
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Doomforge
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posted November 25, 2009 10:51 PM |
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I'm not trying to sound accusatory, but isn't that basically placing yourself above the artist? Sure, they might not need the money as badly, but just on that argument, couldn't a poor person steal from a rich guy?
Yes, I place my poorness over his richness. Since I don't see it as stealing, as you probably know, I'm merely ungrateful in my opinion. Nothing to be proud of, but ultimately, once I can earn some better cash, it won't be a problem.
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But you said that you would like to give some kind of gratitude. So by that logic you could save a little from each album you download and then actually buy one.
Shouldn't it happen spontaneusly? like, heeeeey, that album was so great, lemme donate... 
Well, technically I could do what you suggest, yeah.
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dvid
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 25, 2009 10:54 PM |
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Quote:
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I'm not trying to sound accusatory, but isn't that basically placing yourself above the artist? Sure, they might not need the money as badly, but just on that argument, couldn't a poor person steal from a rich guy?
Yes, I place my poorness over his richness. Since I don't see it as stealing, as you probably know, I'm merely ungrateful in my opinion. Nothing to be proud of, but ultimately, once I can earn some better cash, it won't be a problem.
OK, I wasn't sure if you thought that or not. I don't really disagree with your view on that then (besides the theft technicality). I'm probably done posting here for now, I'll leave you alone.
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Doomforge
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posted November 25, 2009 10:56 PM |
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Well, since I heard all opinions there could be, the thread is pretty much done for, unless we want to repeat the same arguments over and over again
but it was fun. Thanks everyone. Have a good night.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 25, 2009 11:03 PM |
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Ahhh, now we're getting somewhere. This: "Nothing to be proud of, but ultimately, once I can earn some better cash, it won't be a problem." is the position I'm in as well. Remember how I said that I know that what I do is not exactly right and you almost frowned upon me? Well, now you're saying something very close to it.
I think that one problem with your experiment is that your first assumption that you won't buy the product if you won't download was in fact very close to the truth but not precise. If you were denied the ability to download things you might still want to buy them. You would buy 1 instead of a hundred and maybe you would even have to give up on something else for it, but you would still buy it because you clearly enjoy it. But when the download option is available to you, you decide that it's better to download what you and invest your money in something you can't get otherwise.
Am I close here?
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TheDeath
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posted November 25, 2009 11:29 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 23:31, 25 Nov 2009.
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If people just downloaded when they would have been the customer for the creator, they are hurting the creator in potential money the creator could have made.
And abortion is murder, yes? It kills potential babies, after all. Potentiality is the same thing, right?
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on that argument, couldn't a poor person steal from a rich guy?
It's not stealing. The owner is not hurt by what I do If I didn't exist, the situation would have been the same
The only conclusion that can be drawn from here is that non-existent things can "steal" with your logic.
Don't make me laugh.
For once I'd like someone to address this. For something to be theft you must DEPRIVE someone of something HE ALREADY HAS. Which is simply NOT THE CASE.
oh and by the way, for those who say music is ART, they are wrong. Under the current model it's business. You can't have both. It's the reason of the craptastic mainstream music these days, and the total unoriginality...
...until music can become art again and be part of culture, it's going to remain a piece of **** business.
(but I wasn't arguing mostly about music anyway)
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I am thinking piracy is living its last free years. There is already a law adopted 1 month ago in France who cut internet access to anyone is caught stealing over torrents/emule. Once the first heads will fall, people will think twice before doing it. Music/movies companies are putting high pressure on the government to act against this. And they are not ready to give up soon.
You probably haven't heard of the massive public outcry and the boom in the Pirate Parties worldwide (political parties). 
I thought the government was supposed to care for the people's needs, not the corporations. But oh well, we know who has the big money.
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Salamandre
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posted November 25, 2009 11:38 PM |
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If I didn't exist, the situation would have been the same
The Death, it is more a moral issue. Of course, without you the situation is same. But can you explain me for what motif you should be able to enjoy an artist labor without having to pay the price it was fixed for it? Only because it is a not material product? It is still the result of hours of work and has a price fixed in stores. It is not FREE.
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I thought the government was supposed to care for the people's needs, not the corporations. But oh well, we know who has the big money.
Art is a luxury not a need. You don't need it to survive. If you choose to enjoy it, PAY. As having nice holidays, a nice car, a nice woman.
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 25, 2009 11:43 PM |
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You're looking at it from the wrong perspective.
If you download something today that you weren't going to buy, you are getting something for free, that other people (the people who buy it) are paying for.
However that's just taking downloading on this day into account.
If you scale up the timeline, and everyone just downloaded, there would be no products to download, because no one is paying for them.
End of the industry. Obviously this is more likely than everyone just suddenly becoming disinterested and no one buys computer products anymore.
That's why there's a law against it, it's pretty simple.
The only interesting thing is what Death said on like the first page, if there was a different system for paying for it not relying on people purchasing copies, then that could fix it. But with the current system, downloading something is receiving a service without paying for it.
That's like going up to a shoe shiner and saying, hey can you shine my shoes for free? I was just going to walk right by you so the result is the same for you anyway, I just get my shoes shined
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TheDeath
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posted November 25, 2009 11:53 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 23:57, 25 Nov 2009.
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The Death, it is more a moral issue. Of course, without you the situation is same. But can you explain me for what motif you should be able to enjoy an artist labor without having to pay the price it was fixed for it? Only because it is a not material product? It is still the result of hours of work and has a price fixed in stores. It is not FREE.
It's not "immaterial", it's simply because I have a product (computer) which I can use to 'capture' that. It's like taking a photo.
I don't get what you mean by it's not free. What is not free? Money is usually used for exchange. If I can take a "photo" from him, there is no exchange, I didn't touch him or his stuff -- consequently after I go, they are still there.
Copyright is ridiculous, that's why it is so complicated in law and has a "fair use" statement, because without it (i.e by pure logic) it would lead to stuff like, I made my own clothing, everyone who takes a picture of me will need to pay as much as I want. Yeah, even in public, right?
There's nothing logical about it, nothing moral about it (copyright, that is, not attribution). Supporting the artist, has moral basis. But preventing others from copying it is immoral and it's like we're denying a marvelous technology to keep AN ARTIFICIAL SCARCITY IN THE RESOURCE. How primitive is that? Instead of EMBRACING new technology we prefer to keep resources scarce. This is why capitalism sucks.
An artist should be delighted that his work of art is appreciated by people. If people have moral conscience they could support him. A businessman is delighted when he gets tons of profits and controlling what people can do with stuff they have.
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Art is a luxury not a need. You don't need it to survive. If you choose to enjoy it, PAY. As having nice holidays, a nice car, a nice woman.
It's called industry, not art.
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The only interesting thing is what Death said on like the first page, if there was a different system for paying for it not relying on people purchasing copies, then that could fix it. But with the current system, downloading something is receiving a service without paying for it.
Those that are against piracy, there is no reason for them to not "donate" to the artist because that's exactly what you do when you buy a CD directly from him (which is often NOT the case, 95% goes to the moneysucking industry). However I think a more adequate model would be something like funding them. Pledging is used as "donate before" type of system (the big link I gave addressed this) and it obviously has its downfalls. One can also introduce a "voting" system, where you vote for an artist that you support, for instance (you have to vote obviously, otherwise there's no point in it). After all, if these are going to get into the public domain (creator still having attribution though) it's only fair the public has a say in it.
And TA, "the current system" sure as hell ain't gonna change if you don't deny it and "fight" against it.
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 26, 2009 01:15 AM |
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And TA, "the current system" sure as hell ain't gonna change if you don't deny it and "fight" against it.
Hmm... maybe later. I'm busy downloading torrents
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 26, 2009 01:16 AM |
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Also with music I support artists who I like (who come to my city) by going to see their show
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william
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LummoxLewis
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posted November 26, 2009 03:23 AM |
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An artist should be delighted that his work of art is appreciated by people.
Part of showing appreciation for something is buying it. You honestly have no idea how much work goes into making an entire album, so the least you or anyone else can do is just buy the damn stuff. If you can't afford it, try to apply for some jobs. But downloading from torrents or whatever, that's stealing and that's a fact.
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TheDeath
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posted November 26, 2009 03:34 AM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 03:35, 26 Nov 2009.
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Also with music I support artists who I like (who come to my city) by going to see their show
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Part of showing appreciation for something is buying it.
Do you think that pirates listen and have everything there is out there, even if it's free?
An artist businessman who doesn't get paid may feel bad, but imagine an artist who doesn't even get fans if he gives his stuff for free... imagine how he feels, as an artist.
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You honestly have no idea how much work goes into making an entire album, so the least you or anyone else can do is just buy the damn stuff.
I have a pretty good idea. The amount of work is abysmal (small) compared to other professions. Part of it is because you work like 3 weeks then get thousands, or millions, I mean you can sell your stuff 10 years from now. Which normal, honest job, can earn you millions with 3 weeks worth of work?
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But downloading from torrents or whatever, that's stealing and that's a fact.
That's sharing and that's a fact.
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william
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LummoxLewis
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posted November 26, 2009 03:46 AM |
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Edited by william at 03:47, 26 Nov 2009.
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I have a pretty good idea. The amount of work is abysmal (small) compared to other professions. Part of it is because you work like 3 weeks then get thousands, or millions, I mean you can sell your stuff 10 years from now. Which normal, honest job, can earn you millions with 3 weeks worth of work?
Exactly why I said you have no idea, lol. There's months of work, even years of work that goes into a lot of albums to get them just right.
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That's sharing and that's a fact.
Oh for **** sake. It's stealing!!! Get it through your thick head already. Downloading something that would require you to normally pay to get it is BLOODY STEALING!!! Are you just that stupid you don't realise that? It's also no wonder I rarely argue with you anymore because you talk so much **** and you think that anything you say is the right thing.
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TheDeath
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posted November 26, 2009 03:56 AM |
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Exactly why I said you have no idea, lol. There's months of work, even years of work that goes into a lot of albums to get them just right.
Wow so an album now takes more than a movie, I guess they just don't have what it takes for the job then. (ironically movies need far higher budgets as well, so I could understand if that's where you were coming from).
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Oh for **** sake. It's stealing!!! Get it through your thick head already.
Oh for **** sake. It's sharing!!! Get it through your thick head already.
What? I warned you that next time I'm gonna make claims too (when you were criticizing me overall), to show you why when I say "you have no arguments", I mean it.
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