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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Multi-battles??
Thread: Multi-battles?? This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted January 22, 2002 05:00 PM bonus applied.

Multi-battles??

While reading some of the posts in this forum, an idea popped into my head, and since I couldn't remember reading anything about it, I decided to make this thread to see what I could stir up.

We already know that the battle map has been made after the same model that AoW (and other games too, probably) uses, so I thought of another thing that it wouldn't hurt HOMMIV to copy from this game. In AoW, a battle would take place on an area the same size as nine adventure map squares (not entirely sure this is the correct number, but something like that), so that all armies within these squares would participate in the battle. I thought this was really cool, you could attack an enemy from two sides, or even surround him/her/it, and what if three or four different alignments crashed together in one battle?!! It would make battles much more interesting, I think.

So, does anyone have any information on this? Is it confirmed that it will or won't be this way? If not, what do you guys think of it?


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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted January 22, 2002 05:54 PM

well, at least the possibility of having multiple armies in a combat has been mentioned, although in a bit different context, in
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=5&TID=110&pagenumber=4:
'it may be possible to solve another problem that slows down the game sometimes, i.e. killing e.g. 100 zombies with one sprite. i am proposing that every round in a combat would take some amount of time, so the battle where 1 sprite kills 100 zombies might take a few turns (days). there can be multiple heroes in an army now, so why not enable another hero joining the battlefield? i.e. you exit the combat screen with hero A and move your hero B on the map screen into the spot where you see the icon of the hero A fighting a monster stack. when the heroes meet, hero B will also join the same combat.'

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Myste
Myste


Adventuring Hero
Reality Impaired
posted January 25, 2002 03:12 AM

I think i speak for everyone when i say that this is an excellent idea. I mean it is possible for three sides to take each other on.

<Myste>
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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted January 26, 2002 09:49 AM

well, i guess it depends on how large the battle screen is. with 6 players that can have 8 armies each and 7 stacks in each army, it would be 336 stacks on the battlefield, i.e. they would fill bit more than 18*18 square. not taking into account the summoned creatures.
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Slava14
Slava14


Promising
Famous Hero
I am 16 now....
posted January 26, 2002 11:06 AM

It will work only in Heroes fights, cause you can't stand with an army next to a wandering monster.

Gerdash, let's not exagurate. There's no chance that all the 8 heroes of six players will fit in a little place on the adventure screen where the battle will take place. BTW, if to do it AoW style that'll be one hex from the attacked, maximum of 9 heroes.

Besides, I don't like it to be so in HOMM, too annoying, long and sometimes confusing.
We didn't see any sign of the ability to move the view of the battle screen to a different place, which means that this will be the size of the battle field, just enough for two armies, nothing more.
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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted January 28, 2002 12:17 PM

Slava, are you sure? I seem to recall someone saying the battlefield were in fact larger than the screen, and that you had to scroll (as you do now in the adventure map) to see the whole area. If I'm wrong, then I can see that my suggestion would seem somewhat rash and unconsidered, but I guess it will be something to consider for HOMMV, won't it?

My point was just that I enjoyed being able to surround and/or ambush my enemies (in AoW, using this proposed system), or facing a superior number of enemies in a trap, so I figured that I would enjoy it even more if it was in my favourite game, HOMM!

But if what Slava says is correct, I can see the futility of my own idea...
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Lith-Maethor
Lith-Maethor


Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
posted January 28, 2002 12:46 PM

battlefield...

if you take a good look in the new screenshots, you will see that the battlefield is indeed larger than the screen (of course that could just be because of the resolution)
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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted January 29, 2002 12:24 PM

Please, all, have a look at this thread and share your views!

(noticed that many were online, so I dared pulling a little revival! )
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted January 29, 2002 06:24 PM

I'm not sure I want this for the adventure map, but for sieges I believe both the visiting army and garrison army should combine into one defender, and this would particularly apply in the case where the visiting army belongs to your ally and the garrison belongs to the player.

I mean it's just plain absurd to take on the enemy outside the walls with part of your army.

For adventure map battles I'd want a limitation on the number of armies that can be part. A suitable limitation would be 2 armies from each side, and only armies that are adjacient may join the battle.

These things can get a bit complicated in the case you combine allies with this type of battle. If both you and your ally has Necromancy, then how does these abilities combine? Can you then raise more than 100% of the creatures as Skeletons.

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted January 30, 2002 12:33 PM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 30 Jan 2002

Multi Battles- Sieges and Adventure Map Conflicts

Like many ideas that have graced the altar in the past few days, this one has been most interesting to read, and I would extend my thumb up into the heavens for it. Yes, there are a few minor hindrances that spring to mind, but they can be well catered for.

The general idea of multi-battles would have a great change on how you play the game, and administer your heroes performances. Changes like spreading creatures throughout the heroes and having a multitudinous amount of them, instead of keeping them bunched up in one hero, which will also have its benefits, but not as much with this feature included. So, evidently, multi-battles will change battle structure and layout.

I do think, however, that the conflict and good and bad points lie inside the conflict itself.
Yes, the battlefield will be enlarged, but I can only see 4 armies on one battlefield, one for each side, it could also prove tedious to the competitors, as the sheer number of creatures congesting the battlefield will be swarming everywhere.

I would like to see the armies act as individual armies, and the experienced shared between them, instead of as a whole, since it is entirely possible that there are 2 orange players and 1 green and another teal.
Also Djive had a point, that the skills like Necromancy, and any other new add ins could complicate the system in battles. So I think it should be calaculated in how much of the % of creatures your team defeated, and the necromancy is based on that, since it is treated as an individual battle.

Yes, multi battles will change the battling feud between all, and the ones who use their resources correctly, and plan the army strategy should make the nulti-battle feature stand out. A great asset to the game, although I wouldn't like to see it on creature battles.
But yes, it seems to be a very good idea and can definitely make a difference in the game, and I don't mean a subtle one!

{Edited}
The reason I used 'will' instead of 'would' is because I would actually like to see this feature implemented, so I was trying to make it sound as if it had already, and therefore, making changes in testing.
One really could have used either word.
Also very good work on the Necromancy conversion, Gerdash.
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"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted January 30, 2002 01:18 PM

Thanks for all replies and kind words.

Djive: As always, your posts are thought through and constructive. The ally and necromancy point is a good one, but one I should think that 3DO can overcome if they set their hearts on it.


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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted January 30, 2002 10:17 PM

maybe it's because of my limited english skills, but imho we can't say 'will' and 'can' about multi-battles. i.e. shouldn't we say 'would' and 'could' rather? we don't have multi-battles in homm4 as far as i have understood, and the battle rounds also don't take up hero's movement.

the necromancy problem is there even without multi-battles, and in a more complicated form, because there can be several necro heroes in one army. i.e. it's not just about counting the creatures the army killed. but the problem would not be impossible to solve anyway, e.g. one quite simple possibility would be like that:

heroes in an army:
necro_A has 30% necromancy
necro_B has 20% necromancy
necro_C has 10% necromancy
100 creatures killed by that army

skeletons raised:
0.30*100=30 skeletons raised by necro_A
100-30=70 corpses left
0.20*70=14 skeletons raised by necro_B
70-14=56 corpses left
0.10*56=5.6, i.e. 5 skeletons raised by necro_C
51 corpses left.
total: 49 skeletons raised

or bit shorter:
100-100*(1-0.3)*(1-0.2)*(1-0.1)=49.6, i.e. 49.

========
lol, whatever, i got carried away.

instead, i think i have heard that raising the dead into skeletons or ghosts was a spell and you could cast it on any corpses on the battlefield. so who casts the spell first, gets the creatures.
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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted April 24, 2002 05:38 PM

Well, the game is out, and as we all can see (you too, Hydra, if you've got the game yet, that is), no multi-battles. My suggestion came a bit late, I suppose, and I also suppose that they had thought of this on their own long before I opened my mouth (if it's viable to use that expression when referring to posting here), and decided to leave it out of the game.

A shame, I think. This is for me the most enjoyable difference between the HOMM games and AoW. I love surrounding the enemy, or having a battle where three sides are represented.

Well, for HOMMV then, who wants it?

Wish well
DonGio
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Klodd_Kradji
Klodd_Kradji

Tavern Dweller
posted April 27, 2002 05:39 PM

Nope, won´t work

Do you understand how small all the characters will be? All the fight-animations would be pointless! It would be one green-blue-orange dot versus one yellow-purple-red dot. One battle would also take too much time. First this zombie moves...... 5 minutes later when all the other creatures has moved, that zombie can move again. One whole game would take ages! Play on XL maps and you can play a whole week (minimum at least).
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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted April 27, 2002 05:59 PM

Quote:
Do you understand how small all the characters will be? All the fight-animations would be pointless! It would be one green-blue-orange dot versus one yellow-purple-red dot. One battle would also take too much time. First this zombie moves...... 5 minutes later when all the other creatures has moved, that zombie can move again. One whole game would take ages! Play on XL maps and you can play a whole week (minimum at least).


I disagree: The battle screen could be scrollable (this works great in AoW). And yes, the battles would be longer, but consider these two factors: 1)Most battles would most likely still be fought with only two armies, and 2) More creatures attacking eachother would mean that stacks were finished off faster, making fights last shorter than one should think based on the increased number of creatures participating in battle.
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Largo_LeGrande
Largo_LeGrande


Promising
Known Hero
from the Carribean
posted April 27, 2002 07:49 PM

I like this idea even it can get little too complicated. I would love to surround my enemies!

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted April 28, 2002 06:19 AM
Edited By: Jenova on 28 Apr 2002

I like AOW's multi battles as well.. When you attack a stack, that stack becomes the center of the battlefield and any stack adjacent to the stack you attacked joins the battle (friend or foe). The powerful CPU armies will always in pairs or stacks or triples, so if you attack one, their neighboring stacks join in as well.

What I liked to do when sieging is wait until I have four armies lined up outside their castle, and attack from four sides of the castle. It's so cool to see them overwhelmed from all sides! HOMM's sieges are like AOW as well.. You don't get a free catapult any more, the only way for ground troops to get in is by attacking the door.

Anyway, it would be nice to see in HOMM4 but I doubt it's ever going to happen. For the battlefield to grow in size, it won't all fit on the screen so the view would need to be zoomed out more or allow a zooming feature (the reason AOW units are so small compared to HOMMs is because the battlefield is much bigger and they need to show more on the screen).

Quote:
well, i guess it depends on how large the battle screen is. with 6 players that can have 8 armies each and 7 stacks in each army, it would be 336 stacks on the battlefield, i.e. they would fill bit more than 18*18 square. not taking into account the summoned creatures.


Doesn't work that way.. The battlefield is 9 blocks, and each block can be occupied by 1 army, so the maximum possible troops in the battle is 9*7=63 stacks. You can't fit more than 1 army in each 'hex' can you?
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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted April 28, 2002 11:14 AM

Sounds like we actually agree on something, Jen...

And I have come to grips with this feature not being implemented in HOMMIV, but HOMMV is due any week now, right?

And I also love stacking four armies around the enemy's city and swarming over his puny garrison! And I really like the bigger battlefield. The battles feel more "right", or "natural" (won't use the word realistic, as that would probably trigger a discussion we've already heard many times before), sometimes it feels weird when some angel or dragon jumps back and forth over the entire battlefield.

Come to think of it, a hybrid between AoW and HOMM would have been very interesting.

Play well
DonGio
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Sam_Sam
Sam_Sam


Adventuring Hero
posted September 19, 2004 03:49 PM

Multi Battles would be a cool thing.But you know what would really make this Website great, an online Heroes game. Now that would be really awesome.  I would play on it every day.
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greek_god_su...
greek_god_superman


Famous Hero
Bringer Of Light
posted September 19, 2004 10:30 PM

Quote:
But you know what would really make this Website great, an online Heroes game.

?
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