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| Thread: Rank your best creatures |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted October 26, 2006 01:44 PM |
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I understand what you're saying ecoris, but I personally find more use for naga queens... hit a strong stack to weaken it so the retal doesn't do as much damage on ur other stacks  ... and... naga queen looks imposing ^_^ black brasseries rule!
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted October 26, 2006 04:39 PM |
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Edited by russ at 16:48, 26 Oct 2006.
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Quote:
I must admit that I waited with the dread knights and moved the naga queens forward.
If you want to do a FAIR 1 on 1, then the only correct action for the naga queens is to defend.
Round 1:
Knights: wait
Naga Queens: defend
Knights: move forward
Round 2:
Knights: wait
Naga Queens: defend
Knights: hit
etc, etc, etc. If knights try to move back and wait again, move nagas to the middle. Their 2 hexes and 7 speed will allow them to cover the entire battlefield.
But either way - I find nagas far more useful. Hit the strongest stack with Nagas, then hit the weaker ones with the rest. Otherwise you'd have to sacrifise quite a few troops trying to soak the retal.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 26, 2006 05:34 PM |
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Quote:
If you want to do a FAIR 1 on 1, then the only correct action for the naga queens is to defend.
Round 1:
Knights: wait
Naga Queens: defend
Knights: move forward
Round 2:
Knights: wait
Naga Queens: defend
Knights: hit
etc, etc, etc. If knights try to move back and wait again, move nagas to the middle. Their 2 hexes and 7 speed will allow them to cover the entire battlefield.
Well, russ, the only difference is that the Naga Queens will have +2 to defense on the first hit. That'll save about 2 naga queens. That is of course a notable difference but it is unlikely to determine the outcome.
But what is really a fair 1 on 1? If I've got more than 1 creature I'd surely split them. In this example the DKs would make stacks of 1 creature to absorb the NQs retal. The NQs should of course also be split.
1 creature vs 1 creature is not really fair either. E.g. the Archangel's resurrect ability would not be taken into account. The mighty gorgon's death stare would also be less effective, and so on.¨
But let us not start a discussion about how to compare the strengths of creatures in a fair way, all that I wanted to make clear is that the DKs will not lose to NQs in such a comparison; and if one makes such a claim one should do some calculation and testing before posting.
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted October 26, 2006 05:58 PM |
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You said that you are comparing a 1v1 fight of 100 stack vrs 100 stack, right? Splitting is going too far I think. Either you compare it the way you do, or include morale, spells, other creatures, etc. (Which IMHO is too subjective and pretty much impossible to do anyways.)
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 26, 2006 07:14 PM |
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Quote:
Splitting is going too far I think.
Yes. My point is just: There is no such thing as a 100% fair 1 vs 1 test. I mean 1 sprite is better than 1 million dwarves, right?
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted October 26, 2006 07:16 PM |
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I'll do the match for you, same hero skills, same morale and luck. Just the creatures!
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted October 26, 2006 07:35 PM |
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Match finished, fought four times.
1 match, Dread Knight begins. Death Blow (Double Attack) once and win. 42 Dread Knights left. Curse casted uppon Naga Queen.
2 match, Naga Queen begins. I pissed up and Naga Queens hero had 2 more defence + good morale. Naga get double turn (morale) twice and win. 39 Naga Queens left. Curse casted uppon Naga Queen.
3 match, Dread Knight begins. Death Blow (Double Attack) once. Naga get 1 double turn (morale) and Dread Knight win. 42 Dread Knights left. Curse casted uppon Naga Queen.
4 match, Naga Queen begins. No specials, Dread Knight wins. 42 Dread Knights left. Curse casted uppon Naga Queen.
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted October 26, 2006 07:51 PM |
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Quote:
4 match, Naga Queen begins. No specials, Dread Knight wins. 42 Dread Knights left. Curse casted uppon Naga Queen.
42 knights left? That looks... amm... SUSPICIOUS. There is NO WAY you can have that many left unless you never fought back with nagas.
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted October 26, 2006 08:07 PM |
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Edited by russ at 20:08, 26 Oct 2006.
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Quote:
Quote:
Splitting is going too far I think.
Yes. My point is just: There is no such thing as a 100% fair 1 vs 1 test. I mean 1 sprite is better than 1 million dwarves, right?
This wasn't your point. Let me remind you what was your point.
You decided to do naga queens vrs dread knights contest trying to prove that dread knights are better because you know that there is no way you can prove that in a full army lineup naga queens are less useful. (Just like you can't prove that zealots are more useful than mighty cows even though the cows will most likely lose 1 on 1.)
Anyways, I liked your test, but if you do it - make sure that you do it correctly.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 26, 2006 08:09 PM |
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Edited by Ecoris at 20:39, 26 Oct 2006.
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Quote:
This wasn't your point. Let me remind you what was your point.
You decided to do naga queens vrs dread knights contest trying to prove that dread knights are better because you know that there is no way you can prove that in a full army lineup naga queens are less useful. (Just like you can't prove that zealots are more useful than mighty cows even though the cows will most likely lose 1 on 1.)
This is when I wonder if it would be better if I just stopped discussing with you. Allow me to correct you:
I decided to do the test because tenzor wrote "In combat terms, Naga queen is even more powerfull - death blow attack is matter of luck, while attack with no retaliation works every round of combat . If you don't believe, try to put 100 DD vs. 100 NQ." And I thought: "He might be right, but I doubt that he has tested it." I don't like when members make such claims without having any evidence to support them. I wanted to point out to him (and others) that they should think twice before posting such (apparently wrong) claims in the library; it makes the information you may find in the here just a little bit less trustworthy.
In this case it's not really that important, (call me a perfectionist) but members should show respect to what is fact and what is not.
It has never been my intention to prove that DKs are better than NQs, (you should know that I never start out with the conclusion that I want to reach when I do tests).
The two creatures are surely among the very best 6th level creatures. 30 damage, no retaliation speaks for itself. So does 18/18, 120 HP. I guess I dislike the NQs because they're a tower creature, but they're still awesome.
Quote:
Anyways, I liked your test, but if you do it - make sure that you do it correctly.
If you're referring to the +2 defense of the NQ the first round, you're right of course, but it is a detail.
Actually the more 1 vs 1 test I've done the less useful I find them.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 26, 2006 08:41 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
4 match, Naga Queen begins. No specials, Dread Knight wins. 42 Dread Knights left. Curse casted uppon Naga Queen.
42 knights left? That looks... amm... SUSPICIOUS. There is NO WAY you can have that many left unless you never fought back with nagas.
Very suspicious indeed. It looks like a copy-paste error taken from the 1st match.
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted October 26, 2006 09:01 PM |
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Quote:
This is when I wonder if it would be better if I just stopped discussing with you.
Btw, why are you trying to turn this into a flamewar? Is this your punchline? "You are not worth talking to! Bye!" I remember you making similar remarks in football thread and something tells me that I've heard it from you a few times before. This is extremely annoying. I was wrong in my last post, but there is no need to make personal remarks.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 26, 2006 09:03 PM |
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Quote:
(call me a perfectionist) but members should show respect to what is fact and what is not.
If you're referring to the +2 defense of the NQ the first round, you're right of course, but it is a detail.
A detail that is not unlikely to decide the outcome of such a battle, since it is as close as it is.
Actually in a real main fight the no retaliation isnt as usefull as it is in a test like this. In a real battle you will most often attack the same unit with all or many of your units to avoid to much retaliation, and some creature has to take the retaliation.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted October 26, 2006 09:17 PM |
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Your all foos.
No one cares about a regular test.
What matters is the outcome of a real final battle.
The stats will be different & there is many ways to beef up your creatures.
You have to play smart in the final battle.
You can pick your favorite creatures but in the main battle, some of those creatures wont work.
Elves are usually a target early.
Titans are expensive & tough to get but they are beatable.
BAH Russ & Escoris I will just stick a hydra out there & kill both of the creatures
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Dreaming of a Better World
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted October 26, 2006 09:32 PM |
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Edited by russ at 21:34, 26 Oct 2006.
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Is it only +2? For some reason I thought that it is +creature level. +6 would definitely make a difference.
Anyways, it is true that with most armies you just attack the strongest unit with all your troops, but that's not the case with Tower (at least in my experience). 3 shooters shoot, naga queens attack the strongest army they can reach, genies attack the enemy shooters. This only leaves golems and gargs who are usually too busy protecting the gremlins anyways. The only exception is when instead of waiting the enemy charges right away with his fast stacks like AAs, but even then the naga queens will kill a few before you need to soak the retal (if you have enough nagas and one of your shooters is unblocked it may already be small enough for your titans to hit it with little or no retal).
If it is a custom army, I would assume that nagas can start weakening the strongest powerstack from round 1 while the rest of your army concentrates on smaller stacks, so you won't even need to soak the retal.
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tenzor
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 26, 2006 10:46 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I decided to do the test because tenzor wrote "In combat terms, Naga queen is even more powerfull - death blow attack is matter of luck, while attack with no retaliation works every round of combat . If you don't believe, try to put 100 DD vs. 100 NQ." And I thought: "He might be right, but I doubt that he has tested it." I don't like when members make such claims without having any evidence to support them. I wanted to point out to him (and others) that they should think twice before posting such (apparently wrong) claims in the library; it makes the information you may find in the here just a little bit less trustworthy.
I have done tests with 1000 NQ vs 1000 DD and nagas won 31 of 50 combats (62%). But my claim that NQ are better than DD was based on a/ experience, b/ calculations.
Retaliation means that combat value can be multiplied by 2^0.5 (more than 41%) as it gives 2 attacks vs 1 instead of 2 attacks vs 2 in one round. And combat value can be calculated easily as
(HP*DAM*(IF(ATT>rATT;1+((ATT-rATT)*0,05);1-((rATT-ATT)*0,025)))/
(IF(DEF<rDEF;1+((rDEF-DEF)*0,05);1-((DEF-rDEF)*0,025))))^0,5
(HP=hitpoints, DAM=average damage, ATT=attack, DEF=DAMAGE, rATT, rDEF = reference attack, damage)
Death blow attack will raise the combat value by 'only' 20% in average.
As you can see, influence of speed is not included here and I must agree with you that it will be essential in case of battle with only 1 stack on each side. But not as essential if NQ or DD will fight against units faster than DD or slower than NQ 
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted October 27, 2006 12:59 AM |
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I still prefer DD.
Dread Knight Health: 120 Attack: 18 Shots: none Movement: ground
1500 gold (2) Hex Size: 2 Defense: 18 Dmg: 15-30 Spd: 9 (ultra swift)
Special: 20% chance to curse enemy ; 20% chance to do double damage.
I think it's the best lvl6 unit in the game! Double damage ability puts Dread Knights above Naga Queens.
Naga Queen Health: 110 Attack: 16 Shots: none Movement: ground
1600 gold (2) Hex size: 2 Defence: 13 Dmg: 30 Spd: 7 (extra swift)
Special: no enemy retaliation.
Extra speed and extra 50% of that constant damage are worth the extra 500 gold that make naga queen the most expensive in level 6.
DD is also cursing, don't forget that.
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HoMMage
Hired Hero
Unundead
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posted October 28, 2006 12:32 PM |
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I'm with tenzor: a one-on-one battle is really not accurate to decide which of the two units is better.
In a Tower vs. Necro full army situation, Dread Knights will not favor attacking the Naga Queens because the cursing is useless against them. They will probably wait and go for the Titans, while Naga Queens will strive to weaken the Vampire Lords, to have them finished off by Gargoyles and Golems, subsequently aid the archers in destroying the Skeleton legion and eventually have their way with the Zombies.
Come to think about it, besides Conflux, Tower is probably your best bet against Necropolis.
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weakofrabbits
Hired Hero
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posted November 01, 2006 03:37 PM |
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1.Centaur Captains
2.Magogs
3.Grand Elves
4.Horned Demons
5.Thunderbird
6.Dread Night
7.Behemoth
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Indeed
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Yann
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 02, 2006 02:05 AM |
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1.Centaur Captains (wait with them until the enemy gets close and then strike)
2.Marksman (double shot)
3.Grand Elf (Double Shot and these guys are amazing)
4.Crusaders(Double Strike)
5.Dendroid Soldiers (entangle)
6.Champions (jousting bonus)
7.Archangels (Resurrection)
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