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| Thread: Future Necropolises and replacements |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV |
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 10, 2010 02:56 PM |
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The reason so many people want to cling to the H3 concept and are wary about seeing it changed is because H3 really did an almost perfect job at putting out some very interesting and fun faction concepts.
Yes, well it looks good on the surface, but factions like the Dungeon and Fortress are obviously working towards 'happy-families' style societies, because they'd never stick together otherwise.
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To many, including me, it has become somewhat the basis on which I base most of my fantasy-world ideas.
Pity, because while it's fun to play the factions of H3 are not well thought out in terms of actualisation (Gnolls in swamp for example, or Naga in snow, etc.).
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And one should always be careful with trying to improve something that was already very good; the keyword is improve, it should read 'change', with the aim at improving, but just as easily, or even more easily, it can tip into something worse. That's why radical changes such as done in H4 weren't so well received; it was TOO radical at once.
The gameplay was radical, which made people uncomfortable. The gameplay was also buggy and not well designed (like the heroes-in-combat thing for instance), which turned discomfort into actual dislike.
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H3 was radical as well compared to H1 and H2, but the changes in faction concepts H3 made were actually -good- and very fitting.
Actually only the Wizards/Tower and Warlocks/Dungeon(?) were really changed much, the rest were just tinkered with (inasmuch as adding a whole new tier could be considered 'tinkering').
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As much as I like the idea of a new faction that would be best summed up as a mixture between H3 fortress, voodoo lizardmen who raise the dead, and H3 Necropolis, with a lot of muck and grime and poison and decay, I would still be plagued with feelings of nostalgia for H3.
Who says you need to differentiate between your Vodoo Lizardmen and your H3 fortress style towns? Here's something I cooked up in about 5 minutes:
1: Serpent Fly
2: Lizardmen
3: Basilisk
4: Undead Lizardman (you only get a few because only great warriors are given the honour)
5: Shaman
6: Wyvern (replace it in Stronghold with Rocs)
7: Hydra
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The main issue is; you can't have H3 Fortress and H3 Necropolis, and the mixture-voodoo faction, next to each other, in the same game; they would be too alike too much. Not that I would mind, but it probably would be difficult to make them very distinct from one another. And each three of those concepts are fun.
Who says you can't have two Lizardmen towns with one being Aztec-Vodoo and the other being Pacific-Seafaring? As for the difference between Vodoo and Necro, the Vodoo faction will have living warriors and beasts, whereas Necro one is relying pretty much totally on Necromancy, so again it will be different.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted July 10, 2010 03:05 PM |
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@MatIII:I like more my idea,balanced undead and fortress
1.Cadavre Ghoul/Plague Bearer
2.Swamp SpiderCross Spider/Giant Spider
3.Skeleton WarriorImperial Skleton/Skeleton Archer
4.Lizard HunterLizard Sniper/Deadlizard
5.ShamanVoodoo Pirest/Necroocultist
6.WyvernVenomus Wyvren/Rotten Wyvern
7.HydraLegendary Hydra/Bone Hydra
8.Grail Creature. Death Dragon
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 10, 2010 03:25 PM |
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Here is a suggestion:
1) Make a creature and show it (full animation, textures and portraits)
2) Now let's discuss to which faction it belongs and if it fits in the story.
I am sure that after some hundred of hours spent to make it your vision will become much more flexible.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted July 10, 2010 04:25 PM |
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Yes, well it looks good on the surface, but factions like the Dungeon and Fortress are obviously working towards 'happy-families' style societies, because they'd never stick together otherwise.
They weren't supposed to. Dungeon is still the archtypical "Dungeon" part in "Dungeons and Dragons" with the heroes being the dungeon masters who control the nasties that lurk within. Just because other factions might be race-based that doesn't mean all factions need to be like that in order to function.
The same applies to Fortress. The term "Beastmaster" is there for a reason; the town consists of 5 monsters which are basicly tamed and controlled by beastmasters and used to fight for them. Just because humans lack the ability to send hordes of tigers and elephants into combat to fight for them without a rider doesn't mean other races in a fantasy world wouldn't be capable of such.
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Pity, because while it's fun to play the factions of H3 are not well thought out in terms of actualisation (Gnolls in swamp for example, or Naga in snow, etc.).
Amusing you name two examples I agree with  I am talking however about the overal concept combined with the terrain-environment, and the overal faction concepts. They are work, and they are fun. Would you want a heroes game lacking the classical human town, elf town, orc down, and dungeon town?
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The gameplay was radical, which made people uncomfortable. The gameplay was also buggy and not well designed (like the heroes-in-combat thing for instance), which turned discomfort into actual dislike.
That too. But a more prominent example is that few liked the combination of Inferno and Necro into a single faction, or Fortress and Dungeon.
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really changed much, the rest were just tinkered with (inasmuch as adding a whole new tier could be considered 'tinkering').
Dungeon had everything stripped away from it except for Minotaurs and Black Dragons, but before H3 and during H3, the concept was still the same; it was a monster town, except with different, more fitting monsters for its new focus.
In H1 and H2, The warlock's castle was placed above ground. In H3, it went underground, and adopted underground monsters as such.
Inferno and Fortress were added, completely new towns, a rather radical change, but it worked. Unlike H5's Dwarf town.
Tower's new concept is, I think, more debatable, but I do think many actually enjoy its theme and setting. I don't think many complained about Boars suddenly being missing.
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Who says you need to differentiate between your Vodoo Lizardmen and your H3 fortress style towns? Here's something I cooked up in about 5 minutes:
1: Serpent Fly
2: Lizardmen
3: Basilisk
4: Undead Lizardman (you only get a few because only great warriors are given the honour)
5: Shaman
6: Wyvern (replace it in Stronghold with Rocs)
7: Hydra
It aint hard to come up with a reptile faction, wether it be entirely of living or wether it holds a bit of a necro-edge to it, but the point is figuring out which concept would be more entertaining, logical, and fitting compared with any other factions you add.
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Who says you can't have two Lizardmen towns with one being Aztec-Vodoo and the other being Pacific-Seafaring?
Because then you get to ask why any of the other races can't have a second, different town with a slightly different theme. For the hell of it? Because we can? Not saying I would mind seeing towns that are simular to each other, but if you're going to limit yourself to about 8 or 9 towns, you generally cannot favour one race over the other and give it two different kinds of towns.
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As for the difference between Vodoo and Necro, the Vodoo faction will have living warriors and beasts, whereas Necro one is relying pretty much totally on Necromancy, so again it will be different.
Yes, it will be different, but will it be -distinctively- different enough? When there are other potential concepts that could be forged into a town as well. Trust me, I love lizardmen and would love to see them used more, but it is a little awkward to have a game which features two towns that features lizardmen in a slightly different context. I don't think HoMM would be the appropriate kind of game for that.
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garnju
Hired Hero
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posted July 10, 2010 07:47 PM |
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Done with my Necropolis in page 3
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 10, 2010 07:51 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 20:08, 10 Jul 2010.
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@MatIII:I like more my idea,balanced undead and fortress
1.CadavreGhoul/Plague Bearer
2.Swamp SpiderCross Spider/Giant Spider
3.Skeleton WarriorImperial Skleton/Skeleton Archer
4.Lizard HunterLizard Sniper/Deadlizard
5.ShamanVoodoo Pirest/Necroocultist
6.WyvernVenomus Wyvren/Rotten Wyvern
7.HydraLegendary Hydra/Bone Hydra
8.Grail Creature. Death Dragon
Can't say I've ever been hot on this sort of faction. IMO you should mix factions into a 'unique' third faction, rather than just just trying to splice creatures together.
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Here is a suggestion:
1) Make a creature and show it (full animation, textures and portraits)
2) Now let's discuss to which faction it belongs and if it fits in the story.
I'd love to, but I'm travelling at the moment, and working from a 1/2 Gig memory stick, so I don't have the room for a modelling program, and I don't really have the modelling skill to use such a program anyway.
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They weren't supposed to. Dungeon is still the archtypical "Dungeon" part in "Dungeons and Dragons" with the heroes being the dungeon masters who control the nasties that lurk within. Just because other factions might be race-based that doesn't mean all factions need to be like that in order to function.
Yeah, but in those factions who's in charge, is it a dictatorship, an oligarchy, a democracy?
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The same applies to Fortress. The term "Beastmaster" is there for a reason; the town consists of 5 monsters which are basicly tamed and controlled by beastmasters and used to fight for them. Just because humans lack the ability to send hordes of tigers and elephants into combat to fight for them without a rider doesn't mean other races in a fantasy world wouldn't be capable of such.
Again, who's doing the taming, the Gnolls, the Lizards, or are they sharing the duties?
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I am talking however about the overal concept combined with the terrain-environment, and the overal faction concepts. They are work, and they are fun. Would you want a heroes game lacking the classical human town, elf town, orc down, and dungeon town?
Well I've got/am going to have all of those factions in my proposal, but not many in the 'traditional' sense, ie, the humans are far-eastern, the elves roman-christian, the dungeon is an underground biotech faction.
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That too. But a more prominent example is that few liked the combination of Inferno and Necro into a single faction, or Fortress and Dungeon.
Yeah, but you don't stop playing a game because you don't like the guy you're playing against, you stop playing a game because you don't like the game itself.
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Unlike H5's Dwarf town.
H5 Fortress wasn't well thought out, but splitting those guys off from Rampart/Sylvan had to happen really.
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Tower's new concept is, I think, more debatable, but I do think many actually enjoy its theme and setting. I don't think many complained about Boars suddenly being missing.
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It aint hard to come up with a reptile faction, wether it be entirely of living or wether it holds a bit of a necro-edge to it, but the point is figuring out which concept would be more entertaining, logical, and fitting compared with any other factions you add.
Well I've split the vampires off from Necro and given them their own town (Estate), so I could go for both anyway. As for which is more entertaining logical and fitting, the fans will make up their own minds, it's not something we can push on them.
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Because then you get to ask why any of the other races can't have a second, different town with a slightly different theme.
Hey, the precedent's already there, humans have both Haven and Academy.
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For the hell of it? Because we can? Not saying I would mind seeing towns that are simular to each other, but if you're going to limit yourself to about 8 or 9 towns, you generally cannot favour one race over the other and give it two different kinds of towns.
So you want to scrap Academy then, or are the Haven units too samey for your liking?
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Yes, it will be different, but will it be -distinctively- different enough? When there are other potential concepts that could be forged into a town as well. Trust me, I love lizardmen and would love to see them used more, but it is a little awkward to have a game which features two towns that features lizardmen in a slightly different context. I don't think HoMM would be the appropriate kind of game for that.
I can understand that, but then again, when you consider how many towns could be considered 'human' (Haven and Academy for starters, plus elves and dark-elves are very nearly human, oh, and dwarves), two different lizardmen towns doesn't seem too bad, especially if one of gecko/crocodile lizardmen with an Aztec culture while the other is of bearded dragon/thorny devil lizardmen with a half-nomadic desert culture.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted July 10, 2010 07:54 PM |
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Quote:
Here is a suggestion:
1) Make a creature and show it (full animation, textures and portraits)
2) Now let's discuss to which faction it belongs and if it fits in the story.
I am sure that after some hundred of hours spent to make it your vision will become much more flexible.
Salamdre,there is Heroes VI,not Heroes III,we didn't know how are the models and game,how do you want to make a full animation,when we didn't know how,I have 3DS max,but I'm not an expert and can't make a new game
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted July 11, 2010 12:25 PM |
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This faction-combination topic got me thinking actually.
About the basic idea of a town that can develop into two entirely different towns, or a mixture of two towns, depending on how you level it up and construct it. Not like H4 Death town!
For example, a Reptile-necro town. It would hold a reptile lineup, and a necrolineup.
Depending on how you build it up, mainly through dwellings, the town will change looks, and you'd have overal 3 main endresults.
1. A town resembling H3 Fortress with a full reptile lineup.
2. A town resembling H3 Necropolis with a full reptile lineup.
3. A mixed town featuring a mixture of Necro and Reptile of your own choosing.
This could be interesting in my opinion, however, it does make the problem arise of what towns would be combined. Necro-reptile is an obvious choice, but likewise I find Dungeon-Reptile to be a match that would work out well.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 11, 2010 12:32 PM |
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Bad idea IMO, really bad, a town has to have a set culture, because a variable one like that will end up looking like the H4 death town.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted July 11, 2010 12:37 PM |
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As I said, not like H4 They did a very bad job at that.
But the reptile-necro idea is already mentioned and none seem to have a problem with the idea of 'mixing their cultures', mostly because they both have a swamp vodoo culture in that setting.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 11, 2010 12:40 PM |
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Mixing cultures is fine, but having 3 or more different lineups and town styles isn't, a town needs a single fixed style.
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted August 31, 2010 01:56 AM |
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3 Necropolises
Here's my take on the Necropolis, with 3 versions: a Ghostly Necropolis, Vampiric Necropolis and Skeleton/Mummy Necropolis.
The Haunting
1. Shadow
2. Poltergeist (ranged ghost)
3. Wraith (mana-stealing ghost)
4. Mist Rider
5. Banshee
6. Reaper
7. Vanished (a mass of tormented, screaming souls)
The Estate
1. Ghoul
2. Bloodcrazed Wolf
3. Night Swarm
4. Red Duke
5. White Lady
6. Iron Maiden
7. Patriarch
The Pyramid/Necropolis
1. Husk
2. Skeletal Guard
3. Scarab
4. Mummy
5. Lich
6. Bone Golem
7. Sphinx
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted August 31, 2010 06:39 AM |
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Scrab fit more at lvl 1.Also,I think there must be white lady or iron maiden,not both.My idea of Piramyd necropolis:
1.Spider=>Toxic Spider
2.Skeleton Sentinel=>Skeletal Assasin
3.Giant Scorpion=>Death Scorpion
4.Mummy=>Sacred Mummy
5.Priest of Deads=>Lich
6.Bone Chariot=>Dread Chariot
7.Dead Sphinx=>Skeletal Sphinx
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted August 31, 2010 01:35 PM |
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The Haunting in detail
The Haunting: Hauntings are created in blood-soaked places of great sorrow and fell deeds, where the worlds of the living and the Dead collide. These tragic locations attract restless souls, and powerful Mediums can draw upon their might and bind them in Asha's name.
All Haunting units are undead and most of them are incorporeal, but nearly all of them possess some vulnerability (to some form of energy or magic in general).
Might Hero: Spectre
Magic Hero: Medium
1. Fragment- Remnant or Shadow- Barely sentient spirits, the remains of souls devoured by more powerful spirits. They are Incorporeal but vulnerable to fire. Appear as murky black shapes with glowing eyes and enlogated teeth and claws.
2. Vengeful Spirit- Poltergeist or Revenant- The spirits of torture victims, now possessing full control over the tools of their destruction, shooting various knives, hooks and scalpels at their enemies. Poltergeists control powerful chains which allow them to bind a single enemy and continously damage it, while Revenants possess suits of armor which cause them to lose incorporeality but turns them into powerful melee fighters. Appear as distorted figures in bloodsoaked white gowns, their faces covered in chain and lock.
3. ???
4. Wraith- Ghast or Phantasm- The spirits of destroyed mages, forever lusting for magical energy. Continually drain SP from enemy heroes to heal (though not resurrect) themselves. Ghasts drain SP from spellcasting units to heal and resurrect themselves, while Phantasms are spellcasters and can drain SP to regenerate their own mana pool. Appear as black-clad spirits with a skeletal face and long fingers trailing into mist.
5. Wailer- Banshee or Screamer- The spirits of noble ladies who died in sorrow. Possess an area attack, similar to the Hydra, except it only affects living creatures (otherwise they attack normally). Banshees' attack has a chance to inflict Basic Sorrow to units around it, while Screamers lose their area attack but gain a breath weapon-like attack which is extremely damaging. Appear as beautiful spectral ladies in luxurious dresses (considered Large), their mouth opening to an impossible size as they attack.
6. Headless Horseman- Mist Rider or Dread Knight- The spirits of knights who broke their oaths and were executed for their sins. Mist Riders are nearly invulnerable to physical harm while Dread Knights deal greater damage the lower the enemy's morale gets. Appear as shining green horsemen with no heads, riding a horse made of spectral mist and carrying a scythe.
7. Lost- Forgotten or Vanished- A hideous creature made of a mass of souls who all died together in agony. Powerful spellcasters. Appear as a billowing mass of screaming faces and distorted bodies, shining with spectral energy.
Advantages: Powerful magic, many special abilties (undead, incorporeality), good mobility (fast units, Headless Horsemen and Wraiths fly)
Disadvantages: Relatively weak units, energy vulnerabilities, mana reliance
More will come in further posts
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Orfinn
Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
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posted December 16, 2010 01:29 AM |
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Edited by Orfinn at 01:40, 16 Dec 2010.
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Some kind of new Necropolis, lineup? Ok I'll give it a shot or more. trying not to bump into too similar things others have proposed
Theres alot of different unit paths you will find below that I've experimented with.
Linear upg (basic unit with either one and/or two upgrades)
Pure unit (unit with no upgrades, alternates)
Alternate upgrades (one basic and two alternate upg)
Mixed (Branched with alternates & upgrades mixed/combined)
Undead Nation
Type 1a
Core
Skeleton Warrior
Ghost
Wisp
Elite
Vampire
Haunted Armor
Poltergeist
Champion
Black Knight
Lost Necropolis
Type 1b, alternate upg
Core
Skeleton
> Skeleton Archer
> Skeleton Berserker
Spirit
> Ghost
> Spectre
Wisp
> Terror Wisp
> Ghastly Wisp
Elite
Vampire
> Vampire Duke
> Vampire Baron
Haunted Armor
> Spectral Armor
> Toxic Armor
Ghost
> Poltergeist
> Sapper Wraith
Champion
Dark Rider
> Death Knight
> Shadow Knight
Huanted Keep
Type 2, mixed upg
Tier 1
Ghoul > Dark Ghoul > Savage Ghoul
Tier 2
Skeleton Wolf > Shadow Wolf
Tier 3
Ghost
Tier 4
Haunted Tree
> Blood Guard
> Dread Dendroid
Tier 5
Branched Version 1
Undead Rider
> Black Knight > Black Champion
> Dread Champion
Branched Version 2
Dread Rider
> Dawn Rider > Night(y) Knight
v
> Spectral Champion
> Avenging Spectre
> Moon Raider
> Death Knight > Blood Knight
Dark Castle
Type 3
T1
Ghoul
> Frenzied Ghoul
> Poison Ghoul
T2
Skeleton
> Skeleton Sharpshooter
> Skeleton Champion
T3
Ghost
> Spectre
> Wraith
T4
Lich
> Lich Lord
> Shadow Lich
T5
Vampire
> Vampire Duke
> Vampire Baron
T6
Dark Knight
> Dread Knight
> Death Knight
T7
Bone Dragon
> Blood Dragon
> Shadow Dragon
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