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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Drugs and governmental stupidity: Case in point: - Ibogaine
Thread: Drugs and governmental stupidity: Case in point: - Ibogaine This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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Undefeatable Hero
posted August 01, 2010 10:13 AM
Edited by JollyJoker at 10:31, 01 Aug 2010.

Drugs and governmental stupidity: Case in point: - Ibogaine

I don't know whether anyone has heard of Ibogaine:

Read the wiki article: those of you who don't, I suppose, you are in for a surprisse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibogaine

Let me first note that, thankfully, there ARE some countries - and not surprisingly Canada, the Ndetherlands and the United Kingdom are among them, while the US and Germany are not - who DO allow this to be tested and used as part of drug withdrawal and therapy.

This is another striking example, of how completely idiotic Western attitide towards some aspects of drugs is, at least in a wide and conservative majority. There are a few tenets - dogmas is probably the better word -, that, in my experience, are written in stone, documenting the infinite stupidity of some aspects of Western society:

1. If nature provides something, it sucks; stuff for treatment, healing, pain-killing and so on MUST be provided by pharmaceutical companies, because only then you can make sure that a drug doesn't have unwished for side effects.

2. Even though it is long known from pain medication, that you can substitute a large part of pain medication, roundabout 50%, by mild psychoactive drugs - in other words, feelgoods -, EVERY effort must be made to eliminate every pleasant side-effect from medical drugs. The reason is probably, that you are not to be "rewarded" when sick or ill or wounded: you might like that and develop a taste for stuff when healthy again, a fear that is well-founded, especially when you keep in mind that the most potent stuffs are all lab-made.

Note, that they are working on an artificial Ibogaine derivate - or on some, to be precise - and chances are, they will botch it yet again.

Anyway. Would you believe it? How many addicts are running around in countries like the US or Germany? You would think that any halfway sane government - like those in Canada and some others - would have gone for a large field test in some selected drug rehab centres and compare the results with control groups treated differently. That would be the rational approach.
But it seems, when it come to drugs, rationality is something you not only cannot expect from the addicts.

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Binabik
Binabik


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Legendary Hero
posted August 01, 2010 11:17 AM

All I know about this drug is what was in that Wiki article. But from the sounds of it, this is a VERY dangerous drug and I completely agree that it should be illegal.

As for studies about it's use as a possible aide in drug withdrawal, if it's studied it should be in a controlled scientific environment with any test subjects being forewarned about it's dangers. Some parts of that article sounded more like new age hocus pocus than science.

It sounds to me much like the experiments with LSD to treat mental illnesses. To use something like LSD to treat mental illness is far more crazy than the people they are treating. These types of drugs are some of the most dangerous drugs in existence with potentially devastating results.

It seems to me that the use of these drugs to treat drug withdrawal is desperation. True, drug addiction is pretty nasty, but so are these types of drugs. I think it's only prudent to be extremely careful experimenting with such drugs. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be studied, I'm just saying that it should only proceed with extreme caution.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 01, 2010 11:35 AM

What exactly sounds so dangerous, especially considering that drug addicts are everyday users of all kinds of dangerous substances - heroin, crack, speed, you name it?

In short, I must have read a different article than you - you don't mean the thing about high quantities will present danger of harming your healt, do you, because that's true even for oxygene.

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Binabik
Binabik


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posted August 01, 2010 11:59 AM

As I said the only thing I know about it is what was in the article. But it sounds like a strong hallucinogen in the same category as LSD, mescaline, etc. Not a mild hallucinogen, but a strong one. To me that sends up red flags all over.

Hallucinogens are not necessarily bad for your health directly in a physiological sense. You could translate "psychoactive drug" to "really fuks with your brain". The results are highly unpredictable. For a significant number of people these types of drugs can act as a trigger mechanism for mental illnesses. For many others it just messes them up.

I've been around a lot of drug users including heroin and coke addicts. The ones I've known who were the most messed up were the ones who had serious reactions to the use of hallucinogens or other similar type of drugs like PCP.

Again, I'm not saying that research should not continue, especially without knowing much about it. It's just that I see red flags going up all over warning CAUTION.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 01, 2010 12:19 PM
Edited by JollyJoker at 12:22, 01 Aug 2010.

No, it's NOT a hallucinogene.
There is a link at the end of the regular article that leads to here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneirophrenia

The German article here is better, because the Englissh article fails to mention a very fundamental difference between the hallucinogenic state (hallucinations) and the state induced by Ibogaine (oneirophrenia): hallucinations are just appearing. With Ibogaine you get those "visions" only, when you close your eyes (!). (Which is why it is compared with a dream state: you "dream" when you close your eyes, but it stops, when you open them again.

Moreover you don't see "strange" things like colors, strange effects and so on. You have visions or "dreams", more like in reliving things from your past and so on.

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Mytical
Mytical


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Chaos seeking Harmony
posted August 01, 2010 12:27 PM
Edited by Mytical at 12:41, 01 Aug 2010.

Not the first (nor will it be the last) time the FDA drops the ball.  Take Oxycotin.  With all the tests they are SUPPOSED to do with a drug, nobody noticed that people were becoming REALLY addicted?

Really?  Really?  Don't buy that for a microsecond.  Sorry for the offtopic, I will go crawl in my cave again.

Back on topic (sorta)..natural remedies are good, but there are a few things that should be known. 1st it is hard to know how much you need, and taking too much can be dangerous (depending on the natural remedy).  Like 'processed' medicine, since everybody is different, it may or may not work.  You also may or may not have to take more. Now if more doctors would quick suckling on big pharmacy's teet (yeah I know..good luck with that) we might get somewhere with natural remedies.

Natural remedies can be good, and can be helpful, but more research has to be done about dosing..side effects, etc.
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Binabik
Binabik


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Legendary Hero
posted August 01, 2010 12:42 PM

I'm too tired and it's time for bed. But for now, the first sentence of your latest link says "Oneirophrenia is a hallucinatory, dream-like state".

From what you've said it sounds like you don't know much about hallucinogenic drugs. A major part of the Ibogaine article describes LSD and other hallucinogens almost exactly. The article itself compares it to LSD. All three paragraphs in the section titled "Psychoactive Effects" describe an LSD trip almost exactly.

The drug is a hallucinogen, there is no doubt about that. But hey, it's just a label and it's symptoms that send up red flags, not the label.

Anyway, time for bed.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 01, 2010 12:54 PM

Strangely enough I have the same impression about you - that you have no idea about hallucinatory drugs and their effects.
The first thing to keep in mind is, that people find it necessary to coin a new term for the state Ibogaine induces. If it WERE hallucinations like with LSD and others, you'd jusr call it hallucinations - that should be obvious, right?
So, no, no matter what you would like to point out here, there is a difference.

I repeat the effect: with Ibogaine you have "visions" - that is, sequences of pictures, most often out of your own experience in your past - WHEN YOU CLOSE YOUR EYES. However, you have generally NO hallucinations in the sense, that the reality you register with your senses is warped or altered.

The difference should be somewhat clear.

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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


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posted August 01, 2010 04:52 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 16:57, 01 Aug 2010.

I find being a layman to medicine and debating about the extent and properties of its effects is out of place. I'll leave that to the people that suffered to study it. My guess is the real issue these government drug administrations are worried about is the potential blowbacks in legal cases if (when) something goes bad; not about whether the side-effects of the drug are overall worth the potential benefits.

Legally, I don't see why any drug shouldn't be able to be prescribed or purchased as long as it is voluntary and the person is fully informed of its risks and side-effects, and of the scope of testing that has been done on it.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 01, 2010 05:22 PM

Well, they don't or don't study them the way they should, that's the problem.
Note that there ARE countries that DO work with the stuff.

So it's not about discussing the precise effects - it's about discussing the blockheadedness of countries and their governments that leads to these things being abolished without exploring the options and possibilities.

Aditionally - medical knowledge or not - it should be clear that long-term heavy-drug abusers have ruined their health anyway for a long time and prone to the possibility of damaging themselves irrevocably with every dose. If they desperately WANT to become clean, and there IS a good chance to help them, it's completely irrational to withhold the stuff for reasons of "dangers of use", even if they would exist, which I'm  not so sure about, after waht I've read.

The simple and somewhat shocking truth is, that there seems to be a substance that is capable of helping people getting rid of their addictions - and that substance has been put on ice in most countries, legally and scientifically.

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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


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Nerf Herder
posted August 01, 2010 05:47 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 17:48, 01 Aug 2010.

Well there's usually a divide between what should ideally be done and what is legally feasible. I'm not a doctor, but I know that fully learning the long-terms effects of a drug is more involved than sticking it through a scanner. There have been plenty cases in the past where a drug was prescribed and 10 years later, wallah, you've got a patient with some sort of ****'d up condition and them trying to press charges along with a bomb of bad PR. This often leads agencies to err on the side of caution when giving a drug the green light or not.

I too wish that if all proper information and risks (including the scope of testing done on it) were given, that a drug could be prescribed, but oh well.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 01, 2010 06:05 PM

What do you mean with "long-time effects"? That drug is basically a one-time shot.
Besides you miss the point completely - we talk about long-time effects we SEE: a lot of addicts just die or have a much shortened life-span. Long-time effects? Come on.
I mean, people don't care about long-time effects of chemo therapy or even certain strong painkillers and so on either. And Methadone isn't exactly free of side effets either, not to mention long-time effects.
And how long is stuff being tested for long-time effects, before it's allowed? Not THAT long time, that's for sure.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 01, 2010 08:44 PM

Further research will lead to interesting sites, like, for example:

http://www.ibeginagain.org/index.shtml

I repeat my criticism. With a drug like that available, if there was a real interest in helping addicts, there would be a lot more official activity.
A symptom is, that basically EVERYONE knows the names of the latest drugs - but who is really aware of THAT stuff?
Looking at what medical drugs with what side effects are actually marketed and presribed, you can only wonder.
My ugly suspicion is, since it's a one-time affair (I read that FOUR doses would have been the top of what has been given), there is no profit potential. Think about it. Methadone is going on and on and on and on...

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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted August 01, 2010 09:09 PM

Quote:
But from the sounds of it, this is a VERY dangerous drug and I completely agree that it should be illegal.
If something only harms the user, why should it be illegal?
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Keksimaton
Keksimaton


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Talk to the hand
posted August 01, 2010 09:25 PM

Some of the harmful substances can seriously mess you up with addiction & stuff and addicts aren't exactly known for being law abiding citizens who do not do all sorts of nasty things to get their fix.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted August 01, 2010 09:49 PM

So? Punish the action that harms others. Just like how we punish knife crime but not knife manufacture.
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Keksimaton
Keksimaton


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Talk to the hand
posted August 01, 2010 10:03 PM

Knives are a bad analogy as consuming them does not have quite the same effect on people as drugs.
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


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What if Elvin was female?
posted August 01, 2010 10:11 PM

Quote:
Knives are a bad analogy as consuming them does not have quite the same effect on people as drugs.
QFT
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 01, 2010 10:32 PM

We are not discussing drugs in general here, or do we?
I mean, if you discuss a specific law it doesn't help the discussion, when you discuss about the merits of anarchy, right?

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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted August 01, 2010 10:49 PM

Quote:
Knives are a bad analogy as consuming them does not have quite the same effect on people as drugs.
You can use a knife for enjoyment, you can use a knife to harm yourself, or you can use a knife to harm others. Both in the case of drugs and knives, it is the action that harms others that should be punished, not the source of harm itself.
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