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| Thread: We need more new inspirations to the series! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Andy_Dandy
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 16, 2010 10:40 PM |
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We need more new inspirations to the series!
Heroes 6 is annonced, and looks like a clone of H5, that again was a clone of Heroes 3. The only new innovative version of the series has been Heroes 4. The Heroes classes there, heroes fighting on the battlefield, and the great magic and experience system, invisible scouting heroes etc. made this my favorite.
Of course it had it weaknesses. people missed the upgrade system of the units, and the ability to recruit more then 5 different units from each town. The AI was always lacking, unable to use the scouting ability, unable to use portions (like the immortality drink), and Nature AI never used the Creature Portal to any benefit. Many fans also thought battles for castles was more boring then in Heroes 3, and I can see their point. People also missed being able to build a capital city.
I think it's time to look at the great ideas from Heroes 4 again, make sure the AI understands and uses the features, and mix them with the good aspects from Heroes 3. That would indeed give us the best Heroes game ever. To bad the developers have no balls at all.
Any thoughts on this, from players knowing both H3 and H4, the best Heroes games of all times?
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 16, 2010 10:48 PM |
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You forgot to mention that H3 was a clone of H2, much more so than H5 was a clone of H3. Face it, most people don't want drastic changes. That's why H5 started off very close to H3 with a few serious differences (like the skill tree) and slowly expanded from there. I can't blame the H6 developers if they decided to go the same route.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Andy_Dandy
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 16, 2010 10:55 PM |
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Yep, that's true, H3 was an improved version of H2. H4 tried some new interesting things, but also failed on some aspects as I mentioned. A good mixture of H3 and H4, prioritizing the features i mentioned, would be the right way to go in my opinion. I guess that's what 3DO would have done, if they where still arround. God bless their memory.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted August 16, 2010 10:58 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 22:59, 16 Aug 2010.
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Quote:
I guess that's what 3DO would have done, if they where still arround. God bless their memory.
Please, for the love of God, don't ever bless 3DO. You can bless New World Computing, the developers who created Might and Magic, but don't ever go around praising 3DO, the avaricious, moneygrubbing publishers who originally drove it into the ground. Ubisoft are a hundred times more benign than 3DO.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 16, 2010 10:58 PM |
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Of all the Heroes games, I think that H5 has by far the most enjoyable and thought out gameplay.
Like in H3 each faction had like 4 creature abilities in total which were pretty much always boring ones like "Shoots twice" or "Takes reduced magical damage" or even abiltiies that did not make sense like Genies doing 50% more damage to Efreets and vice versa.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Andy_Dandy
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 16, 2010 11:00 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I guess that's what 3DO would have done, if they where still arround. God bless their memory.
Please, for the love of God, don't ever bless 3DO. You can bless New World Computing, the developers who created Might and Magic, but don't ever go around praising 3DO, the avaricious, moneygrubbing publishers who originally drove it into the ground. Ubisoft are a hundred times more benign than 3DO.
I meant New World Computing indeed. Sorry!  I think Heroes 4's flaws wouldn't been there if it wasn't for 3DO rushing the game out of greed.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 16, 2010 11:10 PM |
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H5 was so not a rerun of H3. Oh sure, the towns were similar, but the gameplay was different, they had a new skill system, a new combat system, a new town advancement system, and was set in a new universe. IMO there's things from every game that could work well in H6.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted August 17, 2010 05:56 AM |
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I decided to list the advantages of H5 over H3:
- Interesting secondary skill tree
- More combat options
- Initiative - another level of strategic depth
- Factions differences
- Faction balance
- No engine limits on primary stats, stack size. etc
- Poweful editor
- Native script support
- Modability
Now, the opposite:
- Hex battlefield
- More adventure options, like fly / water walk / town portal, quest guards, border gates allow to create interesting game flow
- Runs faster
- More write-ups, lore
- Powerful neutrals, powerful artifacts for additional challenge
- High level cap
- Efficient random map generator
- Wake of Gods! x 3
Overall, H5 was is more duel-wise balanced, aiming at instant skirmishes. H3 allowed you to create long story full of quests, challenges and hero development, which I prefer.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 17, 2010 10:32 AM |
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Quote:
H5 was so not a rerun of H3.
Compared to H4, it was. I'd say H5 is 90 % H3 and 10 % new, so yes, there were (important) updates, like the (minor) adjustments to the skill system and the (minor) adjustments to the combat system, but on the bottom line, the number of major changes were almost zero.
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What will happen now?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 17, 2010 11:40 AM |
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Minor adjustments, between Hero attacks, initiative, and going from hexes to squares, combat was pretty much rewritten, the skill system is about as close to H4 as to H3, and that's before you add in the faction skills, and the spell and town-build systems were modified, though in each case not as much as I'd have liked, oh, and then you strip away and replace every last bit of lore. In fact, the only real similarities between H3 and H5 was the factions themselves.
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Danny
Famous Hero
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posted August 17, 2010 11:47 AM |
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Edited by Danny at 11:47, 17 Aug 2010.
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HOMM4 was a bomb, bashed by fans and critics alike and the series had to be resurrected/saved. Most people do not want any radical changes. I'm one of those who think HOMM4 is the peak of the series but I accept it didn't work out and for the masses it needs to be more familiar and accessible.
Like I said in the other thread, I hope the towns in the new game are more different than they were in HOMMV. That's the only inspiration the game needs now.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 17, 2010 11:52 AM |
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A few radical changes are fine, it's just that H4 mixed too many radical changes with not enough testing, which gave you way-off balance, and features which just didn't work.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted August 17, 2010 12:06 PM |
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@Warmonger: I'll like to add that H5 doesn't have the atmosphere of H3, also the slooooow and boring battles at the game start with some reces.
- The races and towns is a kinda myth. It was all the same. Some H3 towns were actually races (Castle, Inferno, Necropolis, Fortress, we can add also Stronghold and in parts Conflux), some were mixed (Tower, Rampart and Dungeon). In H5 Academy (Tower) is a mix as well, same as in H3. We can say it's a race of mages and their creation, but it was same in H3. So the new is only the 2 elf races (and the dull idea for dark elfs, better some cave race like troglodytes).
- Faction balance imo is not that great. Some factions can become silly overpowered, some creatures too. Like Stand your ground + upd treants.
- Editor is nice but very buggy
More 3 advantages of H3 over H5
- less bugs;
- better atmosphere;
- 2 hero classes
There is simply more imagination in H3. But Black Hole can put great atmosphere in H6, just like they did in Mark of Chaos.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted August 17, 2010 12:06 PM |
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@alci: minor adjustments to the skill system? If only going from H3 they are far from minor, imo.
H3-skill-system was:
there were a bunch of skills, not really related (by game mechanics that is), and each had 3 levels. They were by far not equal (though wog, but that's not OFFICIAL!, tried to equalize some) and some skills would be picked almost allways, some never. The effects were ALWAYS passive (as far as I know). Different chances of skill gaining for different hero classes.
H5 skill-system:
-skills+perks
-relation between skills (through perks) which depend on each other
-racials, with ultimate perks & 4th skill level
-more equal skills
-ACTIVE perks
-greater favoring of certain skills for classes (unique perks, needed for ultimate, etc.)
I think that quite some chnages, and in my eyes, all improvements. I think the Skill system was the best change from H5 to H3
For the genral discussion. It's one of these discussions I cant hear anymore. Always "the series shoudl keep its continuity and H3 was soooo great" versus "innovation, new thigns, new things". All I can say is: I'd prefer, I think, some more changes than will probably come - 'cause we have to staay real: the part with most new features is, afaik, the lest popular and most criticized. And they are a corporation which wants to sell their product so as long as they go well with a continuous, similar games, the ywill keep it, probably.
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Mitzah
Promising
Supreme Hero
of the Horadrim
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posted August 17, 2010 12:08 PM |
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I don't get you people. H4 was way too different than H3. H5 was too similar! Now H6 is too similar to H5. Grow up! They can't please everyone!
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| The HoMM Channel |
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted August 17, 2010 12:09 PM |
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Quote:
HOMM4 was a bomb, bashed by fans and critics alike
Only fans actually. Look at what IGN, GameSpot etc gave it.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 17, 2010 01:35 PM |
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H4 is the clear evidence that the majority of the fans do not want huge changes (I already talked about this in the sc2 thread but it does not relate to this).
Good things that came with H5
* Town levels. In H3 you could just rush to the level 7 creature and you could just build up to capital in the first week.
* Racial skills like Dwarves Runelore, Sylvans Avenger (not the best example since its a rather boring racial tbh) and Barbarians bloodrage etc.
* More balanced.
* Much more interesting units and interesting abilities.
* A much better Skill system.
* Beautiful 3D towns (Haven, Academy, Sylvan).
Good things with H3
* Err... better story? Even though it was like really complicated and made like no efforts to introduce new people to the universe. Plus this is not a RPG.
* Very replayble. Still fun after so many years. I just reinstalled H5: ToTE (because ToTE makes the game a 100 times better) but I am not sure that I will do that in like 5 years in the future.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 17, 2010 02:30 PM |
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IMO the racial skill system was a mixed blessing, yes it was a good idea, but sticking it on the heroes beforehand was bad, because it basically factionalised the heroes before you even began recruiting. What they 'should' have done was make it so that each town could teach their own faction skill. Morale should also have been tied to the faction skills, so that for example, you could have Lethos commanding an inferno army without an issue, Or Maeve commanding a Sylvan one.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted August 20, 2010 12:20 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 12:22, 20 Aug 2010.
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@ Vokiaal. I agree, atmosphere is a very important factor, and H3's atmosphere was just, simply put, amazing, mostly due to its music but also due to its backgrounds. And a clear example of the fact you don't need 3D in order to create a good atmosphere.
The units were also fun... I'm not sure how they did it but the units looked absolutely amazing, and added to the whole feel of it. They looked -alive-, far moreso than the looping 3D unit models.
It should be noted that H4 -also- had an amazing atmosphere. Unfortunately they pushed too many radical changes at once. They had some ideas that had some merit, like the heroes being on the battlefield (although it obviously creates issues in terms of balance), but any of the minor good changes were overshadowed by the major bad changes. The most prominent one in my opinion being the 4-tier 2 units without upgrades system.
In that light it's good H5 returned to taking H3 as its basis and made a rather pretty colourful world of it, which is rather atmospheric in its own right, but still can't compare to the original.
They also -majorly- messed up with the map-view. It's like the gamedesigners couldn't decide wether they wanted to make a TBS game or an RPG game.
My point of course is that the scaling is horrible. In every game before it the scaling was fine; you were looking at a map overview where trees were roughly in scale with the towns and buildings, and the only enlarged elements were the heroes, mobs and resources; the items you can interact with and which disappear.
H5 on the other hand seemed to forget that horse running across the screen is actually supposed to represent an entire army, not a single unit. They modelled the whole world in scale to that single unit, except of course for towns. Yes, it looks pretty, but it doesn't suit it.
I don't think it's a bad thing they are trying to make HoMM6 somewhat simular to H5. In essence H1-H3 and H5 were all a line of progression, each trying to improve upon the previous one. If something is good as it is, there is no need to change it, you just need to fix the things that were bad. Such as white-skinned dark elves controlling Dungeon, PAH!
And getting a proper storywriter. And componist. Personally I get rather sick of these storylines resolving around ONE MAN who can DESTROY THE WORLD on his own. And YOU are the ONLY ONE who can STOP HIM! Bugger off... What happenned to the micro-scale fun adventures and storylines? Two kingdoms being at war! Rescueing a princess from an evil sorceress! Nope, it's all about "OMG I HAVE EPIC SUPERPOWAHS MWAHAHA". Ughr.
@ MattII: agreed. It was a nice idea but it completely ruined the idea of heroes being mercenaries capable of being hired by other factions. There was just no point to it anymore, it wasn't compatible.
The worst part is that those racial skills could have easily been made to be either individual creature abilities (why do demons need to have a hero with the gating ability? Why can't it be a natural ability regardless who they serve under?) or a town structure (artificer, training).
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CrimsonVenom
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 20, 2010 01:44 PM |
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Quote:
Face it, most people don't want drastic changes.
And I think that's a problem. Some hang to things as if they were their own product. I can't understand the reasoning behind this fear for change. I do agree that some basic elements should be kept, but every game should be strikingly different from the previous. If too many elements are kept, and anything hardly changed at all, the series will eventually become repetitive, and finally end out being boring. Just like a story or movie, casting the same concept time and time again will eventually end up a waste everyone will lose interest in.
I see lots of opinions, most of which go about how H6 should be more like H3. Now, I see and agree on how some things were great in H3, but that's no reason to toss aside anything different. Heroes 3 is still there for you to play, if you enjoyed it that much, but things need constant change, in order to improve. Otherwise, it would just mean being stuck in one point forever, a point which, although possibly best yet, isn't flawless, either. Now, some might say making mistakes isn't an improvement, which is true, but mistakes are always made when striving for better, as well. In other words, if you want improvement, you have to risk making mistakes also.
As of H6, I think it's too soon to judge. In such a situation, one would tend to make a statement based on less facts the statement actually requires in order to be accurate. Graphics alone isn't nearly enough to say "it's a lot like", and right now graphics is about the only thing we can be certain of.
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