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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Heroes 6 Guild System
Thread: Heroes 6 Guild System This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted September 15, 2010 07:36 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Don't be too harsh, here. Except some rare voices, which you'll find anywhere, most people ARE open to changes, here, I think.


I'm not that sure

Most people are against changes but yet, those same people are the first complaining when a sequel introduce little to no changes I remember how Heroes 4 was called an heresy (among other stronger words) for all the changes it was bringing and the same people cried about H5 being a copy-paste of H3 in 3D ^^


I meant serious people, not ever-critics
Well, and the problem also is that in the last sequels, they seemed to lack the balance of changes, as well as, in case of H4, the right point of changes. But mainly, imo, H4 did the changes poorly and that was the prob. ON first playing, I, personally, wasn't too offended by most changes (only the missing upgrades). Just when playing a bit more, it was not as entertaining as H3 and you came to realize things you'd dislike.

also, we should come back to the thread...

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 15, 2010 08:50 PM

Quote:
Most people are against changes...
Speak for yourself.
Quote:
I remember how Heroes 4 was called an heresy (among other stronger words) for all the changes it was bringing and the same people cried about H5 being a copy-paste of H3 in 3D ^^
A lot of the changes in H4 weren't bad ideas, just badly implemented and buggy, which will drive people off even quicker than bad ideas (of which it had enough, Infernopolis for starters).

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whiterider
whiterider


Known Hero
death walks with me
posted September 15, 2010 10:39 PM

Quote:
I'm not that sure

Most people are against changes but yet, those same people are the first complaining when a sequel introduce little to no changes I remember how Heroes 4 was called an heresy (among other stronger words) for all the changes it was bringing and the same people cried about H5 being a copy-paste of H3 in 3D ^^

Truth you speak, sir Nelgirith
I was lurking in these forums before years with different nick-name, when there was no Heroes 4 forum but only the Altair of Wishes I can remember all things that were said from people about the complete changes in Heroes 4, the same people later complained about Heroes 5 but I can stand up and point to them that they (in general) were the reason that made Ubival afraid of making drastic changes in the fifth part. Heroes 4 was a decent game IMHO and I liked it. It amused me a lot and it was different from Heroes 3 (everyone should bow before it of course but H4 was brilliant in same areas ). Heroes 5 was boring (for me it was a H3 clone, with the dull story, cheap overall look, and because I recognized the corporate machine that stand behind it - people like Fabrice, former Heroes producer, that looked at the game only as cash-source and I know that money is the ultimate goal but if you seek money in this industry you will disappoint the gamers, if you love your games and if you are truly devoted to your product, than the gamers will happily give their money - this is something that Ubisoft is learning in the hard way, but there are signs they are on the right path)

@MattII: You are a real fundamentalist, but you should have fun before the mental, not vise versa. With the ever-critic mind set you show around I wonder how you succeed in having fun playing the games. And please don't project your own stuff around, part of my all-daily job is to communicate with people that often do not agree with me and I don't take it personally. I am not making suggestions about the game, so one day I can proudly say "I invented this and I showed others the light" - this kind of attitude can be recognized in some posts here - the only reason I have, is to awake an intelligent response which grows over the childish "I dont like this, I have concerns, I am disappointed, I, I, I, I like it, I love it...." all these people that always cling to their emotions (Don't get me wrong, I find useless posts that are based only on this - either on the positive or the negative pole, because these posts dont contribute to the game). We are debating here about how to make the game more interesting and to allow it to expand. Intelligent people agree to disagree and there is no problem with this. You still have your shrink to share your emotions with him.

@alcibiades: I am sorry for the off-topic, maybe this is only my idea about efficient dialogue free from personal remarks and ego-pollution. If you feel like my post is spoiling the spirit of the forum, please delete it. But still I think it has to be reminded why we are sharing here.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 16, 2010 12:15 AM
Edited by MattII at 01:25, 16 Sep 2010.

Quote:
@MattII: You are a real fundamentalist, but you should have fun before the mental, not vise versa. With the ever-critic mind set you show around I wonder how you succeed in having fun playing the games.
Well as a point of fact I don't actually do much playing, I find theorycrafting much more enjoyable.
Quote:
And please don't project your own stuff around, part of my all-daily job is to communicate with people that often do not agree with me and I don't take it personally. I am not making suggestions about the game, so one day I can proudly say "I invented this and I showed others the light" - this kind of attitude can be recognized in some posts here - the only reason I have, is to awake an intelligent response which grows over the childish "I dont like this, I have concerns, I am disappointed, I, I, I, I like it, I love it...." all these people that always cling to their emotions (Don't get me wrong, I find useless posts that are based only on this - either on the positive or the negative pole, because these posts dont contribute to the game). We are debating here about how to make the game more interesting and to allow it to expand. Intelligent people agree to disagree and there is no problem with this. You still have your shrink to share your emotions with him.
Well for starters I don't really try to show off, this is the first time I've touched that thread in like a year, and I only did it to show Nelgirith that for all I act like an ultra-conservative with regards to what is happening with H6, I actually like some of the changes they're making (the way external dwellings now port the creatures to the town), I just don't like some of the others (cutting it down to 4 resources, auto-owning every owned mine and presumably dwelling in the area, especially).

Oh and back on topic. I don't the point of the City Guild since it's already covered (on a non-renewable basis) by Seer huts. As far as I can see the Warrior guild is just buying the effects you could get for free from creature experience. The Mage Guild thing sounds interesting, provided you can come up with enough advsnced spells to stop it becoming monotonous.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 16, 2010 02:54 AM

Quote:
part of my all-daily job is to communicate with people that often do not agree with me and I don't take it personally


you are a priest or something?

I don't see much point in the mage guild. it's like a second magic guild. the warrior guild idea from alcibiades is more interesting.

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serptico
serptico


Adventuring Hero
posted September 16, 2010 05:57 PM

SEX guild

I want a sex guild, this will increase the prostitution underground network which will in turn increase morale of male troops.

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Aosaw
Aosaw


Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
posted September 16, 2010 09:43 PM
Edited by Aosaw at 21:45, 16 Sep 2010.

My primary issue with the "guilds" idea is the name.  The Warrior's Guild is designed to make your soldiers fight better, right?  Why not call it a Training Grounds, then?  City Guild?  Why not simply put the benefits you're describing into the Tavern, or the City Hall?

The trouble with adding in a bunch of guilds is that it homogenizes the guild idea as a whole.  The elves in H5 suffered from a similar problem - when you have too many of a similar idea, the differences between them begins to blur.

I like the mechanic of a quest-giving building, and a training grounds would be a good way to improve your low-level units without having to upgrade them into middle-level units (as it was for Haven in H5).  But too many guilds is just as bad as too many dragons.  It might be relatively easy to keep track of which is which, but in the end I don't really want to.  Change the name, and I'm on board.

EDIT:  I just realized - The Training Grounds is essentially the Fort, Castle, and Citadel.  The City Guild is the City Hall.  The sex guild is the tavern.

The buildings are already there.  All we have to do is add different features to them.  It would be nice, for instance, to have a reason other than income to build the Capitol.

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted September 16, 2010 10:58 PM

Quote:
The buildings are already there.  All we have to do is add different features to them.  It would be nice, for instance, to have a reason other than income to build the Capitol.


You need one?
I once suggested somewhere here to, additional to buidlings, build building upgrades. Those could be things like the suggested guilds. Upgrades are similar to buildings, but built in the buildings, and buildings can only bear a few upgrades, if at all. An upgrade for the Mage Guild would be a library, for instance, or something giving your heroes +knowledge/spellpower.

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whiterider
whiterider


Known Hero
death walks with me
posted September 16, 2010 11:23 PM

Quote:
Quote:
part of my all-daily job is to communicate with people that often do not agree with me and I don't take it personally


you are a priest or something?


I am not at all into religion but I prefer rather to think about myself as agnostic, not atheist. But if you are so interested in this, I am a lawyer

Quote:
I don't see much point in the mage guild. it's like a second magic guild. the warrior guild idea from alcibiades is more interesting.

I am not proposing a new mage guild, I am proposing two other guilds along with the magic guild - warrior guild and city guild (city hall, where the city council and the major/governor are).

Of course the names are of personal taste. If you have played RPGs, the idea about the tavern there is that other "heroes" or characters/NPC are sitting in the tavern waiting for you to handle their misfortunate affairs. This kind of quest is more personal, but the quests from the city hall/city guild are more of global interest for the whole country (and in Heroes 6 your towns will look more as a country or kingdom than before, because of the area of control - this sets borders and marks your own territory.) Quests from the city hall will give the feeling of community, and you could feel more as a leader of your people rather than a hero that shows himself here and there and kicks some as*es.

The idea about the Warrior Guild is more a reflection of the Magic Guild, only to keep the symmetry - Magic Heroes have their Magic Guild, so why not Might Heroes to have their Warrior Guild. The Warrior Guild could offer from time to time (as an option in the town screen) tournaments - you could challenge another (AI) hero in battle or many heroes in chain-battles for certain reward such as a title or artifacts.

The Guild system could allow heroes to have their own titles showing their rank in the respective (Might or Magic) Guild -
Might ranks:
1.Corporal
2.Sergeant
3.Lieutenant
4.Captain
5.Commander
6.General
7.Field Marshal

or Magic ranks:
1.Apprentice
2.Neophyte
3.Acolyte
4.Initiate
5.Adept
6.Magus
7.Arch-Mage



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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 17, 2010 02:14 AM

isn't it like the thieves guild? you could see who were the best heroes.

but learning new technics for might heroes as you would learn new spells for magic heroes could be interesting.

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Aosaw
Aosaw


Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
posted September 17, 2010 07:47 AM

I kind of like the idea of a guild for might heroes, but a tournament doesn't make sense to me, and feels cumbersome.  The guild should grant a permanent boon to the hero that makes him slightly more powerful, with incentives to upgrade the guild to higher levels or to build guilds in other towns.

A training grounds, for example, might improve a specific stat of a specific creature in a Might hero's army; upgrading the training grounds might then extend that bonus to another creature, or grant an additional bonus to the first; and so on.  Building a training grounds in another town would provide similar but disparate bonuses, allowing a Might hero to benefit from a variety of boons and reward players for developing multiple outposts.

I still think that your quest idea could just as easily be subsumed in the Tavern, as a sort of Bounty Board.  Sometimes you'll have small, personal-beef quests ("Save my daughter, she's been captured by wolves," or something like it), which reward you with minor artifacts or small amounts of wood, ore, and gold.  And then you might have big Bounties, announced by the city's governor, which are bigger quests ("Wanted for murder - The Necromancer Sandro!")  And when you go out and kill Sandro, or take him prisoner, or what-not, then you get a much bigger reward, like a major artifact, crystals, or a permanent boon to your town.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 17, 2010 03:33 PM

I was thinking more like in H4.

attack and defense stats could very well benefit the heroes instead of the creatures, like in H4. and at the training ground they would learn new technics, attacking multiple enemies at once, scaring an enemy, motivating an ally...
logically, they should be less good than spells, since you could use them for free. in another hand, might heroes would probably have better defense than magic heroes.

and if you want to improve your units, just pick the attack and defense skills.

actually, there might as well be a combat skill for heroes. or several, like offensive technics/defensive technics... it would be like magic schools, upgrading them would allow you to learn new technics and be more efficient with old ones.

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Aosaw
Aosaw


Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
posted September 17, 2010 06:08 PM

I don't know.  I've always felt like the point of two separate kinds of heroes was that the magic hero is focused more on the hero being able to affect the battlefield directly (as with spells), while the might hero is focused more on his army being physically powerful.

I think that if you give might heroes "might spells" (so to speak), you're homogenizing the gameplay again.  I think it would be a much more interesting challenge to create a balanced might hero that doesn't rely on "special abilities".

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whiterider
whiterider


Known Hero
death walks with me
posted September 17, 2010 11:03 PM

@Aosaw, this feels right and not right in the same time. Might and Magic heroes should differ in game-play but I always felt that the Might Hero is almost always like a mule that carries artifacts, sits in the corner and does from time to time not very significant attack (almost not active in h3, they could do a lot in h4 and were with medium influence over the battle in h5). But in the same time it doesnt feel right to give them spell-like abilities (like wizards of the coast did in DND 4e).

The truth is somewhere in the middle path The Might Guild could provide the hero with captains in his army - maybe one or two per hero, influencing in that way one, two or three stacks with more attack/defense/speed or even a new ability only for these particular stacks. The tournaments are added only for fun and to break down the routine of the game, like the card game did for Might and Magic (RPG series). The tournaments will give new ranks for the might heroes, with higher rank - more captains could be hired.

Or instead of that, the Might Guild could be used to improve the hero speciality (i.e. Razzak bonus for leading golems increases with ranks).

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 18, 2010 01:39 AM
Edited by Fauch at 01:42, 18 Sep 2010.

it wouldn't be exactly like spells. if you take H4 heroes, you could order them to perform a hydra like attack, or to use a jousting attack for exemple. wouldn't be possible to use both at the same time. contrary to the magic heroes, many technics will have to be used in melee.

also, while melee heroes are less versatile than magic heroes, they are tougher, so bonuses from artifacts and skills could last longer.

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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted September 20, 2010 05:03 PM

I don't think we need a separate "guild" structure to hand out quests.
It could be incorporated into the functions of the Town Hall or Fort where your local "regent" governs the city in question.
When you inquire for quests at your town you'd just click on a tab that presents itself in the town hall or fort to get the current quest or list of quests shown ready to be accepted.

I also think might heroes can get by fine by using support magic rather then spells which in raw effect scale with spell power.
Then again, presenting Might heroes with their own options might make them feel more... excuse the choice of words here... "mighty" then "magicy".

Barbarians in Heroes V pulled this off quite effectively with War Cries which did more evoke the feeling of a fearsome and respected commander.


I just think a lot of the ideas these guilds provide are great additions to the game but do not justify adding more buildings to the towns when you could just as well implement these in base UI/heroes them selves/other town structures.

Then again, if more buildings is what it takes to make me deviate from my standard town build orders on a mission by mission basis, yes please.
I'd like to have more strategic choices in choosing what structures to build when, currently town construction in almost every Heroes game has been fairly linear with only an illusion of choice.

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