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| Thread: the disparity of wealth |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted October 25, 2010 06:31 PM |
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Perhaps you could try to keep snide remarks about community members out of your comments unless everyone is going to be allowed to make snide remarks about other members.
Go ahead and make those snide remarks about me, I don't care.
And maybe you'll wonder one day why you're the only person people make snide remarks about? No, wait - forget I asked.
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The world is not a cruel world.
Yeah, every few seconds a child dies of starvation = not a cruel world at all.
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We can whine, cry, or raise our fists to the sky and curse God because our life is not perfect or we can work to change the circumstances that can be changed and make the best of what can't be changed.
And say "it's perfectly ok that some people die and some swim in gold" like you do. "Cause their daddy is perfectly fine to buy them watches worth 20000$".
The problem with you is that you immediately think that acknowledging this as not fair doesn't have to equal being Robin Hood and robbing them out of their money.
I will skip your commie comments - you repeat them like a broken record. YES ELODIN WE KNOW YOU THINK MARXISTS ARE WRONG AND EVIL.
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Your entire post seems to be nothing but personal comments about me and complaints that money does not grow on trees. Yes, you WILL have to WORK to earn more money.
The funniest part here is that you defend people who don't work at all, only got born rich and their daddy is generous to pump their rich spoiled butts with more money.
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Does someone want more money? Rather than crying about not having as much as he wants he should work for it.
Yawn. Especially in China, where the wage is 20 cents per hour. Working 8 hours more will net you astonishing 1,60$ more per day. Whopee... oh, you have to skip sleeping to make that "fortune".
I'd say "grow up", but you're probably twice as old as I am or something... yet you still haven't noticed the world doesn't begin and end at the United States.
And judging from your posts, you never will, either.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 25, 2010 07:02 PM |
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It is impossible for all the people in the world do have a decent life. A large percentage will always have it much, much worse than the others and there is little we can do about it. That's life. But I think that if you are born into a life like that, you might get used to it and not even know that some people out there buy a Coke on their way home from work or school that is worth your salary for a year.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted October 25, 2010 09:11 PM |
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"If you want to stand in the shortest line in the world, stand in the line of people who think it's fair."
-Ralph Rossell
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 25, 2010 10:09 PM |
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@Mytical
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Not to mention that most really wealthy, and I am not talking about 'rich', I am talking about wealthy..either have inherited it (ie they themselves didn't earn a dime), or got so by other people's work.
I assume you have some facts or studies to back up this statement. Or are you just speaking about your biased perceptions of reality?
As for needing lot of money to make lots of money through investments: another misconception. Making lots of money through investments takes time, research and intelligence. But it doesn't take a lot of initial investment if you start early and make smart choices. When you're in your early twenties, think about all the money you blow on stuff you don't really need. Alcohol. Cable television. Movies. Whatever. If you start early and put even 5% of your monthly "luxury" spending away into simple investments like mutual funds, stocks or even CD accounts, within a few years you'd have a nice chunk of change waiting for you. Investing doesn't usually pay dividends overnight and you don't need lots of money to make lots of money. Probably two of the biggest money misconceptions that are out there and also probably one of the biggeset reasons people foolishly don't invest - because they think investing $20 dollars here and $50 dollars there won't amount to anything.
Before I start ranting...
can you back this with any evidence? About misconceptions and what pays and what not and how rich you can become by this or that? Any real figures for this insurance agent talk?
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted October 26, 2010 01:19 AM |
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Actually what Corribus says is just common knowledge for anyone who pays attention to such things. The idea of saving money and the effects of compounding is so simple that anyone who doesn't already know that hasn't even taken the first step to understanding finances. Sources? It's all over the place; newspapers, magazines, radio talk shows, television, any financial planner.
By far the most important reason for saving and investing money starting at a young age is not any of those things. The most important reason is that it's a good habit to develop early. People who start to save and invest early have a strong tendency to retain that habit throughout life. People who spend all their money retain that habit also. If all someone does is work part time at McDonalds and only saves $1 per week, but does it religiously, it's not really the value of that dollar that's important, it's the habit of saving that's important.
The advantages of growing up in a middle class or higher family are psychological more than anything else. People who grow up that way are far more likely to know what it takes to get ahead financially. Something that I've observed for a few decades is that very consistently the young workers in fast food places in nice suburbs work harder and have MUCH better attitudes than the ones in the urban locations. The ones in the urban settings have terrible attitudes. They hate being there and it shows. I'm completely convinced that I could walk into a fast food place and watch the workers for a half hour and point to the ones who will be most successful for the rest of their lives. It's all about attitude and a willingness to work without complaining constantly because of some misconceived idea that there is a shortcut to becoming financially independent.
What I hear a lot of the people around here saying is that they are too damn lazy to work and do what it takes to get ahead. They want everything handed to them without working for it. Well it doesn't work that way. If you want things then you have to work for them. People somehow expect to get out of high school or college and suddenly have things. It takes YEARS of working, and very slowly over time you start accumulating "things". Starting out sharing an apartment or dorm room with a few other guys, buying a cheap used mattress to sleep on, using boxes for a furniture, buying dishes and used clothes at the thrift store....that’s just normal even for most of the kids from the suburbs.
If people are too damn lazy to work, and think that working is so terrible, then they might as well /wrists right now because that's what we call life. Life is all about working, that's just the way it is. If it takes working 80-100 hours a week to get ahead then that's what you have to do. You take your leisure and relaxation when you get a chance. But to expect leisure to be any large portion of your life is just denying reality.
Drop the bad attitude people. You can either accept it or not, it's your choice. You can be one of those people who actually accepts life for what it is and walks around smiling and happy, or you can be one of the people who hates having to work and walks around frowning and hating every minute you spend at work. If you have two people doing exactly the same job for the same pay and one accepts it and is happy and the other hates it and is unhappy, guess which one is going to get the promotion or raise? Guess which one will do better at the job interview and get the job?
If you start out having a defeatist attitude then you will most likely be defeated. It's not going to be given to you, and you aren't going to get it all at once. It takes years or decades, and it takes a good attitude and hard work. Being overly concerned about the few people who are exceptions to that is only going to give you a bad attitude and make you unhappy.
You not only have to accept that life is about work, you also have to accept yourself and what you have to offer (or don't have). Some people are born into more money. Some are born with more intelligence, or more talent. Some just get lucky. Some may be better looking. Maybe the most important attribute to financial success is an outgoing friendly personality. Again this is what life is about and you can either accept it or not. Accepting it will go a LONG way toward making you a happier person. Constantly coveting your neighbor and concerning yourself with whether they have more than you is a route to unhappiness.
@JJ, I've never read anything about it, but the impression I have is that there's a lot more "old money" in Europe than in the states. Europe has rich families and companies that have been around for centuries. We obviously don't have that in the new world. "Old money" here would be 100-150 years old. It's possible that some European old money dynasties moved to the new world, but I'm not aware of any. This doesn't change anything regarding attitude and what it takes to get ahead, but I think it might help explain some of the differences between Europeans and Americans. We talk about working hard to get ahead because it's absolutely true. Even the richest oldest families here are only a few generations old. The entire country including the wealthy has been built from scratch, and it's been done recently. The vast majority of it has been done in my parents and grandparent’s lifetime.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted October 26, 2010 03:25 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 06:08, 26 Oct 2010.
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Before I start ranting...
can you back this with any evidence? About misconceptions and what pays and what not and how rich you can become by this or that? Any real figures for this insurance agent talk?
JJ, I know sometimes you like to argue just for the mere sake of it, but this is a little ridiculous.
First, I did not make any sort of broad-scope statistical claim. I asked Mytical for facts or figures because she made a statistical claim about the majority of people acquiring their wealth from relatives. It's pretty obvious that this is a perception that a lot of people have which isn't based on anything more than mere speculation and wishful thinking. The point is that rather than basing his philosophy on a "fact" which he clearly hasn't bothered to investigate, it might be worthwhile for him to learn something about wealth creation. At the very least, when Mytical repeats such speculations and implies they are facts, he does a disservice to the uninformed that happen to hear it. It reminds me of a time when a coworker was trying to convince me that its in my best interest only to pay the minimum balance of my credit card statement each month, because to pay the full amount is bad for my credit. With such nuggets of wisdom floating around masquerading as facts, you don't have to wonder why so many people are in such massive debt.
Second, if you don't know about compound interest, then your economic knowledge is even sorrier than I thought. But to answer your question, yes I can point you to sources about smart investing. Here's one for you to start with if you are really interested.
http://www.amazon.com/Investing-Dummies-Fifth-Eric-Tyson/dp/0470289651/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1288055755&sr=8-1
But seriously - I find it interesting that you're actually going to contest the common sense that putting some money aside each week rather than blowing it on comic books and bubble gum is a means to create wealth. Hmm, perhaps I should direct you to this book instead:
http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Algebra-Self-Teaching-Guide-Second/dp/0471530123/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288055811&sr=1-1
I mean, you do realize that if you put 1 penny in a savings account, eventually (key word, eventually) you would have a fortune. It's really just an exponential function. Yeah, that would take a few thousand years, so for some more realistic numerical proof, I'll direct you here:
http://webmath.com/retire.html
Let's use myself as an example. At the moment, I put about 5% of my monthly salary into a retirement account. That is matched 5% by my employer, for a total of 10% salary saved per year. Assuming my yearly salary increases by a VERY conservative 3% annually, and I get a conservative 6% return per year, and I retire when I'm 65 (32 years from now): when I retire my account will be worth well over 1,000,000 US dollars, based on a principle cumulative investment of a little more than 400K (if my hasty math is correct). Even if you ignore the "luxury" of matching. I still will end up with over 500 grand - from doing nothing more complicated than putting a little aside each month. Surely anyone can cut out 5% of their spending to put a little aside. In addition, I also prepay my mortgage, which is about equivalent to investing at an annual return of my mortgage loan rate, so my wealth grows even faster. The point is that I try to invest every extra dollar I can spare, because I know it will pay dividends in the future. Sure I have to live a little leaner now, I'll get to enjoy my wealth later on. And if I get run over by a bus before I get to enjoy it, well, my daughter will have a cushion.
I have no problem admitting to you that I grew up in an upper middle class household. I'm not ashamed of it, because I don't like the idea that a person should be ashamed of wealth. But (as alluded by Bin) the greatest gift my parents taught me was not the comfortable lifestyle I had as a kid. It was learning responsibility with money. My dad grew up pretty poor but learned to save and invest smartly and made a nice life for himself. I learned these strategies by observation because he was a good role model. I worked in high school, and while my friends blew every dime of their paychecks, I saved about 90% of mine. I saved through college and grad school, too, when I was making practically nothing. I found a way to put a little in my piggy bank every chance I could. Because of all that saving - based entirely on my own money, mind you - I had enough savings for a downpayment on a house.
So really the best evidence I have to give you backing up my statement, which is really common sense, is my self. You don't need a huge amount of money as a starting point to building wealth. It doesn't come over night, but through discipline it does come. Of course, some kids are born into massive wealth and don't have to learn responsibility with their money. It does catch up to some of them, but to others it never does. Well, I guess that makes them lucky, but I don't hold it against them. That's life, I suppose. I don't hold the expectation I should should get to have everything someone else has for the mere reason that I suck in air. The universe doesn't work that way.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 26, 2010 06:13 AM |
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I'm baaaaack.
I have a little surprise to post about a little later too.
I was born in one of those 20 cent an hour areas in a war-torn hellhole region of the globe. My family had to pretend to be stupid and my oldest brother had to pretend to be mute, because he only knew one of my family's languages and people who spoke multiple languages were shot on sight. My parents were forced into slave camps and branded like the Jews were. I lost my grandparents, most of my uncles and aunts to those misguided, but retarded peasants given false promises by a half-Chinese snow. When they escaped, my oldest living brothers in tow, they had to flee through the jungle across rivers choked with corpses. No food and only water filled with decay and filth. My mother still sometimes wakes up screaming at night.
If I had lived there, I could not possibly have worked my way up to a decent standard of living. My only choices would be housewife or prostitute. I don't think working more hours to either would get you further. What's more, I'd be a housewife (if I was lucky enough to get the former) probably to a peasant living on a dollar a month living in a one room shack. If I would be really lucky, I may marry a man making 2 or 3 dollars a month living in the city. Even then, healthcare is a joke, people just pile their whole families onto their bicycles (mopeds if they can afford them) with the babies left naked to do their business in the street. I am lucky, my family was rescued and brought to Canada shortly after I was born.
The only baby picture I have is a landed immigrant photo of me being held in arms straight out while I cried. When my family first arrived here, my parents didn't know much about the society and it took a while to adjust. My parents even made a small campfire and started making rice out in the park behind the Parliament buildings (it's like starting a cooking fire behind the Whitehouse). My father was really old to begin with and had trouble learning the language, so he worked as a dishwasher at a restaurant and brought home small packets of jam and peanut butter as treats. He couldn't find any other work and didn't make enough in that job alone, we had to go on welfare. Things got worse when he had his stroke. He forgot how to speak English at all (though these days he understands some again), he could not drive and he had to relearn how to walk.
At that point, my sister was born and the government saw it fit to give us housing under welfare. That was not a nice place. it was full of cockroaches. They were disgusting and they were everywhere. Almost every day I swear I saw one covered in its white babies, and if you squish it, its surviving baby roaches scatter everywhere to come back the next day full grown. Oh, and the basement was haunted by an old lady ghost who choked my other brother at night. My parents had another baby afterwards, my mother decided to get her tubes tied afterwards because she did not want anymore children to suffer and she wanted to be able to work. The unfortunate thing is that my baby sister got the umbilical cord wrapped around her neck in the womb and died despite an emergency c-section. My mom had to recover from being cut open with 2 little girls, one of which was barely a year and a half and still wanted to be picked up all the time (picking up anything heaver than 10 pounds is a no-no after being sliced open). This was the 80's, a time when the Republican President Ronald Raegan danced with Conservative PM Brian Mulrooney on live TV.
A few years later, my mom was able to find a job at a factory. This was during the 90's, the economy was good, the "Liberal" party came into office by campaigning against the "Conservative" tax hike and got to work cutting spending. (Head explode?) My mom and my oldest brother (eventually, once he finished school) working together were enough to get us out of the haunted cockroach house. We moved to a still somewhat slummy area but much nicer than the ghetto area we lived in.
Moving onto the 00's. My mother got laid off, but my brother still worked and my father was old enough to start collecting his pension. I'm a pretty good artist, but I was realistic to realize that was going to get me nowhere. At first I just wanted a job that paid well so I could help my family and not have to live in poverty ever again, I thought of being an architect but compared money made to time spent in school and worked out it would probably be better if I took up electrical engineering. I kind of sucked at it but I was good enough to pass the course with memorization. I my my husband the first day of college and it was love at first sight. I dropped the course because I knew it wasn't for me. My significant other also had difficulty pinning own what he wanted. He tried art, business and finally computer technician. He finished the first semester and was hired by Dell when they opened the call centre here. The Conservatives take back the country after a sponsorship (no-bid contract kind of thing) scandal rocks the Liberal party. I have a knack for accounting and took it up in college. It was actually fun for me. However, when I did graduate (and even though I took it accelerated to compress 3 years into just over 1.5) I could not find any jobs in it that paid very well. I was making barely more than I did working at Wal-Mart like I did to pay my way through college. Eventually I got into a manufacturing medical equipment through my other brother's connections there. Between my husband and I we started saving a lot together to buy a house and start a family. 2008 rolls around, we buy our house and I have the signs of being a new parent soon start to show when the American economy collapses, a 30% more valuable American dollar plummets and our country has to keep sabotaging our own dollar to maintain parity. Dell abandons Ottawa and lays everybody off. My husband goes back to school to finish his studies thanks to provincial government initiatives to get people recently laid off more skilled to expand the job market. Halfway through finishing his course, we have our first son. Jayden and I have to go on maternity leave. A few months after finishing his course, my husband still does not have a job and I am not pulling in much money either. We cut all the costs we possibly can but still slowly slid into the red. Finally, we got a pretty well paying job at a company that provides "managed services" tech support. Unfortunately it seems every time I get pregnant he gets laid off because of the messed up economy. What's more, the place I was working was also in layoff mode, although they did it more evilly. Instead of laying people off, they would force people to switch shifts around and make it so the people who were balancing kids work and school have to give up the other two or their job. In my case, despite having a note from my doctor explaining how I couldn't do certain aspects of the job and how I needed to take pee breaks more often they would not let me until I got approval from their doctor. It was not forthcoming, they forced me to quit. Good thing it was only a month (nearly to the day) that it took my husband to find another job. He didn't even get any unemployment (takes a month to kick in). Too bad it drained our financial reserves dry. At least he makes slightly more now. He's a network engineer.
Last month I gave birth to my second son. His name in Kenji, coincidentally he was born to an emergency c-section on 9/12. He's the little guy that has (as well as his brother) been keeping me and my husband away from here, youtube and other such places.
I have 2 siblings that died at birth. An older brother that was too big to get out so, with no healthcare system, they had to chop him to bits to get him out or both would have died and the baby sister I mentioned earlier.
Life is certainly not fair in the least, but I am grateful for what I have. We've always given what we can to charity, but lately we haven't been able to give any. I know what it's like to have to wait in line for hours to get a donated used toy for Christmas. You do treasure them, but you also feel left out when the other kids have their new barbies and all you have is your old dirty tangled my little pony.
Personally, I think people should be given a questionaire with their taxes. Those that want to pay for defense pay for defense, those that want to pay for social programs pay for those (they are necessary. They just need to be checked often for fraud to actual peopel in need can survive and improve their lives.) and those that want something else can pay for infrastructure (which costs more than social programs and defense combined usually).
Anyway, just a little about me and what I think on the matter. Hope you have a good read.
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Youtube has terminated my account without reason.
Please express why it should be reinstated on
Twitter.
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winterfate
Supreme Hero
Water-marked Champion!
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posted October 26, 2010 07:27 AM |
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@Shyranis: An inspiring story, to say the least!
I nearly broke down and started crying and everything; you've really had a tough life. 
With that said though, I believe that the most important part of your story is the present. In other words, the fact that you're still alive and fighting to stay that way. A lot of people in your position would've just given up and died. That you refused to quit says a lot about you. 
+QP for Shyranis please!! 
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If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 26, 2010 08:31 AM |
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I'd like to point out that I don't really think that it's good style when people are being belittled, just because they ask for evidence when people come up with really bad clichés, they cannot back up.
Let's first have a look at the inflation index in the US. Let's have a look at a guy who is now 65 in 2010. That guy has been 20 in 1965 (and would have been better things to do than save a buck each week, but still)...
Consumer Price index in 1965 has been at 31 (1982 is 100):
http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Consumer_Price_Index/HistoricalCPI.aspx?rsCPI_currentPage=3
Consumer price index NOW is 217 which means - amazingly, I might add, - that prices are now SEVEN TIMES as high now than they were in 1965. Seven times.
Is that a trend? CPI in 1946 has been 18 CPI in 1991 is at 135. That is even more than seven times, but if we go a couple of years later, from 1950 (24) to 1995 (152) it's a little less.
What does that mean?
Statistically it means, that if you put away 50 bucks now, as a 20-year-old, it will be worth 7 bucks in 2055. Of course, 45 years is a lot. With a very conservative investment strategy you will beat inflation - your 50 bucks from now WILL accumulate interest and WILL have been grown to 400, maybe 500 bucks.
But what sounds impressive - hey, I'll have a MILLION when I'm old - is in fact not nearly as impressive. Start now, and your million will be worth maybe what 150.000 are worth now. Could you live off of the interest raste from 150.000 bucks now? What does it gain? What do you get currently? Let's say you'll make a good 4%, that will be 6000 Dollars a year. Can you live off of that?
Now, that's what people have who started in 1965. They, of course, started with saving 2 bucks here, five there and maybe 10 in a good month, and today they may have indeed what would have been a fortune then, 150.000.
If they managed to acqire a home as well in their life, saving the rent, they may get by with the interest off of that. Reserves are low, though. If they do NOT get by - and chances are they don't because of HEALTH issues that are not fully insurance covered - the reserve will vanish fast lowering income, which is what you can't afford, due to inflation.
Will you be wealthy then, with that money?
I don't think, I need to answer that.
Bottom line is: NO, you do NOT get rich by saving some money here and some there.
That is, you do NOT get rich as a simple worker.
And that is NOT counting in the possibility of even harsher events.
Provided a) you earn money and b) You can actually afford to put something away, (which isn't a given, by no means) long-term investment is absolutely NO way to get rich, at least not for the people who invest their money that way. The biggest problem with long-term investment is that your money isn't available when you could make better use of it.
A real life example. The Infineon share (I'm at the German stock exchange now) peaked in summer 07 at about 12 €. From then on it slowly went downhill to 4 € in Spring 08. After a short high, leading up to 6 the share plummeted to something like 50 Eurocent a year later, at the bottom of the crisis.
Which is the point when you would have needed MONEY. The share is nearing the 6 € mark again, and depending on WHEN you would have bought (how much risk you had been willing to take), you could have from 3 to 10 times your investment now within less than 18 months.
THAT is how you get rich.
However, for that you need cash, when times are bad which is the problem.
Anyway, what you need as a prerequisite for everything is a decent job in a decent country, and that's where the trouble starts for a lot of people.
And that's not even starting on asking for goals in life. If, for example, you want kids EARLY, saving gets a little more complicated - it's still possible, but then those Rolex gifts should be no role model.
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Shyranis, that's an interesting story, thank you for sharing it.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 26, 2010 11:54 AM |
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One question, where are you getting the 6% a year interest Corribus? Cause I want in on that. Most places are sitting at 1.24. CD's? Well you have to have a minimum purchase to get anything near 6%..and quite a high minimum.
See I do save .. a lot. In fact for what I make, I save a lot more then most who make what I make. About 10% of my earnings go to savings. That is with a mortgage, a car loan, and taking care of two other people (pretty much). Some people's work does not match, btw. My savings does go into a 401k, but no matching. Since I play it conservatively..it doesn't make as much interest, but lest risk.
Saving helps, but it won't make you rich..unless you already have a good paying job.
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Message received.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted October 26, 2010 01:31 PM |
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Quote:
Bottom line is: NO, you do NOT get rich by saving some money here and some there.
That is, you do NOT get rich as a simple worker.
That's why I'm repulsed by Elodin's "just work more". It doesn't work like that..
you have to be smart AND take your time at either private business OR stock exchange. But for both you need money first, and unless your daddy gives you a bit, you'll have to save it first.
This isn't really possible in a poor country, so the first step is to live in a rich one.
The second step is to find a job that will allow you to save enough to start investing quickly (cause getting rich when you're old doesn't seem that awesome to me  ). And it's not easy, no matter how much "improvement" you go through and how much you rise your "qualifications", you can end up in a poor job anyway.
So, it takes luck too.
And whatever takes luck is unfair by default.
End of story
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 26, 2010 03:51 PM |
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I was thinking, since life has no purpose, that we will all die and the universe will disappear? what is the point of spending our whole life working and suffering?
with all that is available now, many people should be able to live decently without having to work too much. how many of you do a job which has for goal to fulfil the essential needs of human beings?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 26, 2010 04:10 PM |
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Hasn't life the purpose you give it?
I mean, it doesn't matter whether we all die, simply since we do not know when; it might be tomorrow - in which case working today was indeed useless - but it might be in, depending on your current age, scores of years.
Life, therefore, means finding the balance between everything to maximize the positive aspects in it.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted October 26, 2010 05:43 PM |
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Fauch, not all people view their work as something bad. To many, it is a source of completion, a way to feel good.
For the others, nihilism isn't the alternative, I think. It's better to search for a purpose than to say it doesn't exist.
I think a combination of nihilism and atheist can actually lead you to a point where you realize morals are useless too, cause nothing lasts and nothing has a purpose anyway. So you may as well cheat, steal, take drugs and such most your life, because it won't matter anyway.
We don't want that, do we?
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted October 26, 2010 06:17 PM |
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I think by no means should work be a reason of suffering. I do what I want and what I find useful (however they don't pay me much). Translating and writting technical news, that is.
Without referring to transcendental beings there is no way to prove that life makes any sense. But it doesn't make me go emo, as each of us can give it a sense on his own. Possibilities are just endless.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 26, 2010 06:44 PM |
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we are always asked we have to do a lots of efforts to work a lot to make the world a better place or whatever? and what does it do? people work their ass off and are unhappy?
yes of course, some people find satisfaction in work, but why do you need that satisfaction?
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 26, 2010 08:17 PM |
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It isn't wrong for people to be rich.
It isn't wrong for those people to sustain their kids.
What is wrong is people to be forced to stay in poverty because their parents were poor.
In countries where education is unaffordable to the poor, like USA, South American countries, etc. that is often the case.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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bLiZzArdbOY
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted October 26, 2010 09:08 PM |
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You don't need to be rich, you just need to be well-provided for. Social bonds with friends and family are overwhelmingly - overwhelmingly - the primary source of contentment and happiness for people. The immense majority of people would become depressed and eventually even entertain suicidal thoughts (though few would act on those thoughts) if they were largely cut off from interaction.
This is why developed regions have incredibly higher rates of suicide than impoverished countries, because the daily living of many people in developed regions can lead to an isolated lifestyle with weak social bonds. They go through life miserable, and having their bodily needs abundantly provided for does little to comfort them. In impoverished nations there is a far higher degree of social bondage. This isn't to say that being impoverished is better than being well-to-do middle class, but being impoverished and in tightly-knit company is better than being well-to-do middle class and being isolated.
The drive of a society shouldn't realistically be to make everybody's dreams come true; people suck balls at knowing what they really want in the first place. You just need to aim that everybody has access to the tools of society that allow them to live long and prosper, rather than being a victim of cyclical poverty. Even if absolutely everybody is well-provided for, people will still be in loathing if they know some people have it better than them. Many people would be happy just to see wealthy people lose their wealth, even if they didn't receive a single coin of that wealth. This is a malady with an individual's attitude that most of the time can never be cured and they're damned to live with until they die.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted October 26, 2010 09:28 PM |
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The problem with you guys is that you're putting all your effort into finding reasons why something CAN'T be done instead of finding ways that it CAN be done. There is no sure way to become financially successful. However, a defeatist attitude is certainly not the way to do it. Whether it's financial success or anything else, that's a route to failure. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy.
Someone like Bixie has a horrible attitude. He's exactly the kind of person a company does not want. Someone like him is a manager's nightmare. He's the kind of person who would get fired because of his bad attitude and then instead of blaming himself, he uses it as "proof" that companies are evil.
Contrast that kind of attitude to someone like Shyranis. She doesn't come across as someone who just wants to complain and make excuses why something can't be done. She and her husband do what it takes to get ahead. And even after failures they pick themselves up and try again. They aren't expecting someone to do it for them, they are doing it themselves. My guess is that Shyranis and her husband will be successful in life. And if aren't it's not because they didn't try.
If all you people do is complain and find reasons why something can't be done then you've failed before you even start. Stop blaming rich people and start blaming yourself, because you are your own worst enemy.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 26, 2010 09:45 PM |
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Except that wasn't Bixie's point. Think Rolexes for kids.
The point here isn't whether someone can't be rich or not. The point was, that with so much poverty around - NOT self-inflicted poverty, I might add - it can be considered obscene that spoiled brats of the rich, wealthy and famous run around with diamond coated doggie collars or what the hell is just in.
In my opinion it'ss feudalism revisited - but of course there is no way to forbid that.
However, it IS allowed to say that it is somewhat obscene, don't you think, what with all that poverty?
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