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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: WCL: Debate - HOMM regulations/tournements
Thread: WCL: Debate - HOMM regulations/tournements This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
vlahul
vlahul

Tavern Dweller
posted January 20, 2011 04:27 PM
Edited by Valeriy at 10:36, 31 Jul 2017.

WCL: Debate - HOMM regulations/tournements

Hi,

i would like to propose a few things that will interest potentially the top high experienced players for evenly matched games.

Maybe a tour or a new set of regulations for such games can take place.

My suggestions bellow, with arguments:


1. templates: 2smf and 4sme. Personally i consider these ones the most complete and balanced in h3. Potentially Balance too, but at very high experienced players 1-2 easier zone brakes can win the game.

As for arguments: in 2smf/4sme you find everything from h3, including lvl 10 dwelling. This "everything" is very well guarded, sometime impossible to flag in time. Any utopia or relic is strongly guarded, making trully worthing of taking it. Unlike Jebus where almost free relics lies everywhere.

Technically every top player can brake Jebus in week 2. I even had some very special games with brake in week 1. But assuming both players brake in week 2, the difference will be made by the relics found. This turn the game into a cazino-like luck game.

2. time - top players can play 2 minutes time. This is a very challenge for high lvl. Chaining can still be done. Personally i can do chaining having 2-3 secondaries in fights in same day. If i can do that everybody can do it.

Also the planing can be done on opponents turn or/and fast decisions.

Unlimited or 4-8 minutes turns are not fair i believe. I consider an advantage a fast-thinking and i feel handicaped when i do my thinking fast while other player spend 15-30 minutes a turn.

I can say this can be an advantage for the players - fast thinking, fast decision.

3. No conservatory, no hives. This obviously transform the game into luck. One can get 1-3 angels and the other can get 6-10 angels. Totally unfair. Conservatories are relativelly easy to take, even in week 1 and always in week 2.

4. No skills speciality heroes. Such as taz, hack, orrin, ayden, etc. This also is a matter of luck and some lvl 15 armorer or offense can win the game alone. No lvl 3-4 spells speciality, not even secondary (meaning you cannot cast solmyr's chain lighting even if secondary).

5. Potentially no tomes. Let the magic heroes have their advantage. I find it totally unfair for a Barbarian without wisdom to have access to high lvl spells. I find it totally unfair also that a stronghold can access lvl 5 spells...or a fortress. Even Castle.

Let the each faction have their own advantages. Tower library will have a more importance.

If you want spells on a might hero, get wisdom and build the guild in other town.

6. No born logistic (not even pyre/monere). I always thought and will consider that logistic is the win-the-game skills. For a top player, having 30% more moving points, assuming a 15 days game... would be the equal of a 20 days playing.

7. No bugs at all. Yes, there are some bugs that can win the game. Personally i experienced such things. As bellow:

- no upgrades on stable. Stable increase moving points, not upgs the cavies. If you want better cavy, spend 2k gold and 10 wood.

- no "1 shot" double archers. no endless ballista. Get ammo cart if you need arrows. For example elves can shoot -1, which can be a match winner considering a minimum 100 dmg per arrow.

- no badge of honor. This artifact increase the morale...not imunity to mind spells. You have various arties for blindess, berserk, forgetfulness, etc etc. Use those, not the bugged badge of honor.

- no portal of summoning. Obviously its a match winner building. And even if you play Dungeon..this faction has 3 special buildings (unlike rest of faction who has 2).

8. Preferably no dwells. This can be argued however. Even a lvl 2 dwell can change the side of game. However this can be argued as stated.

9. The draw rule (golems vs 1 bone drag for example) must be changed into surrender/flee the weaker side. I dont find it fair that 1 bone dragon can  get a draw vs 20 golems.

10. "Red Rush Extended" - as no extra army in week 1 vs Blue. (meaning do not build&recruit efreets in day 3, or dendroids in day3) attacking Blue with extra advantage.

And 200% difficulty. Making every decision important and giving importance to every faction strategy.

Every noob can build angels on 160% or brake full treasory in week 1 with 30 archers.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted January 20, 2011 04:54 PM

If you have so many rules, maybe better start a chess tournament?
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 20, 2011 05:06 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 17:08, 20 Jan 2011.

It was expected, since WT opened the way. If you lose to something, better ban it instead of looking for a counter.
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vlahul
vlahul

Tavern Dweller
posted January 20, 2011 05:44 PM

well...its just about tactics and balancing the game evenly matched.


Otherwise, play with diplo, carto, necro...play no rules.
Or if you have rules...make it a complete set for equally balanced, not for one advantage.

Simple as that... full balanced rules or no rules.

If you like to abuse bugs to win over your opponent is your choice of unfair playing .

I dont feel worthy when winning by abusing some bugs... such as stables, badge of honor, unlimited amo, etc.

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vlahul
vlahul

Tavern Dweller
posted January 20, 2011 05:46 PM

I may add no "marketplace" since one player can get it and the other cannot.

In the end, would be better to ban Stables for good. First of all you cannot control if cavalry is upgraded and after that the building is made and secondary... stables movement bonus can be signifiant considering other player dont have in his zone.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 20, 2011 06:09 PM

In my opinion the luck factor is very important on keeping fans enthusiast. If you reduce the game to only "who plays better", I see no reasons why a weaker player would even try to play with a better one, hence the tournaments rankings will be frozen. And it was proven that the luck factor is not enough decisive to change the rankings anyway, but it adds the needed feeling each great game has to provide for re-playability.

Sometimes you have a worse situation, but if keep playing, things are balanced with time.
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SAG
SAG


Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
posted January 21, 2011 09:03 AM

Quote:
1. templates: 2smf and 4sme

WCL has no "preffered" templates. If there will be sub-tourney (i hope it will be this year) then it will happen on temps that will be popular at the moment.
Quote:
2. time - top players can play 2 minutes time.

this is first request for quick games so far.
Quote:
If i can do that everybody can do it.

I don't think so.
Quote:
3. No conservatory, no hives.

players are allowed to agree about any rules they like or think they are better than default rules. However the more object you remove from the game, the less interesting it becomes.
Quote:
4. No skills speciality heroes.

In WT version you have wider choice of starting heroes because creture specialists are much better than in SOD. With proposed changes we will not have any starting heroes lol.
Quote:
5. Potentially no tomes.

Tricky question. In WT version it's possible to allow hero spells from tome only if he owns necessary level of Wisdom. However I don't think this is "must do" change and it requires a lot tests.
Quote:
6. No born logistic (not even pyre/monere)

In WT version log hero is not as strong as in SOD. And definitely i don't see big problem in pyre/monere.
Quote:
- no upgrades on stable.

first time i see complaint about it
Quote:
- no "1 shot" double archers. no endless ballista.

first time i see complaint about it
Quote:
- no badge of honor

In WT you may disable it if u like
Quote:
- no portal of summoning

This is one of key elements of the Dungeon which is very expensive and unstable in development. I don't think we should ban Portal in default rules.
Quote:
8. Preferably no dwells

I don't think we should ban dwells in default rules.
Quote:
9. The draw rule

Sometimes it's difficult to calculate "weaker side". Should we calculate by original HP, HP left or by fight value? Rule should be as simple as possible
Quote:
10. "Red Rush Extended" - as no extra army in week 1 vs Blue.

normally meeting week 1 means restart. Else you may agree any rule you prefer.
Quote:
And 200% difficulty

200% makes game longer and less balanced for map size less than XL+under.
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vlahul
vlahul

Tavern Dweller
posted January 23, 2011 11:01 PM

I suggest a tour made by COUNTRIES on 180% and 2 minutes.

Example:

see how many players can participate from all countries.

From each country X players qualify. Best players from that country.


They follow the championship and there is 1 winner similar to UEFA system (maybe groups too).

You also can do country coeficient rating and player coeficient rating (similar to UEFA system).


but is very important to play 2 minutes/180% - WCL rules + some new rules maybe.

WT version will be perfect. i like it very much. but very few players play WT..sadly.

speaking of SOD... i still believe stables should be banned..especially when Castle playing.

Personally i add that rule on my list even if is not official.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted January 23, 2011 11:09 PM

You forgot Rule 11: No fun.
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vlahul
vlahul

Tavern Dweller
posted January 24, 2011 01:46 AM

well... i was expecting a lot of trolling on these suggestions.


the funny part is...taking 10 games for example.

i can play anything...any version, any rules or no rules.

The funny part is nobody plays my rules. Kind of sad, considering that rules are for both opponents and especially that my rules are designed for very balanced games.

anyway. it was just an idea, a try.

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted January 25, 2011 05:12 PM

Quote:
I suggest a tour made by COUNTRIES on 180% and 2 minutes.




Didnt you just quit WCL?
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I play Heroes 3 Online at: www.heroes-III.com

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vlahul
vlahul

Tavern Dweller
posted January 26, 2011 04:35 PM

Liophy, if you have a problem with me we fix it in a game )

I see you keep trolling me...

Suggestion was not for WCL in particular, just for your little brain to get the entire picture.

As for quiting WCL, SAG made an ultimatum to Captain until this weekend and i received X2 wins from zeusik.

If Captain + mali21 games are fixed as SAG asked, will have no reason to quit.

I know some small people like you cant think big, so instead of that they keep flaming and trolling.

enjoy!

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted January 26, 2011 05:54 PM

2 minutes is boring. It turns a turn-based game into a real time strategy game (stress factor). That's why you won't find many participants.

And 180% difficulty is new to me
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vlahul
vlahul

Tavern Dweller
posted January 26, 2011 09:14 PM

that is the idea angelito. humans answer good under stress...usually

so this can be an advantage or disavantage.

its not real time strategy...still is turn based, but much faster

it can be an experience anyway.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 27, 2011 01:51 AM

The stress is affecting the judgment and the extreme speed is erasing the subtle difference between good and weak strategists. For some people, a quality game is more important than a fast win against noobs.

Back in TOH, the 1-2 turn limit was the object of a blitz tourney, but in no way a rule. But I agree, Heroes with long turns is time consuming and if you play 5 games/day, you will get crazy.
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vlahul
vlahul

Tavern Dweller
posted January 27, 2011 04:31 PM

that's my point exactly.

i consider myself totally uneffected by playing under stress in 2 minutes.

i can plan almost the same tactics in day like in a 6-8 minutes turn.

while others do mistakes, which put me in favor.

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fank0
fank0


Known Hero
There are no limits
posted January 30, 2011 07:15 AM

That only shows the level of your strategic skill.

I personally very rarely agree to play with time limit at all and it only happens if the opponent insists very hard and i have some very strong reason to want to play with him.
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wanderer
wanderer


Known Hero
Mercenary on Azure's Kingdom
posted February 25, 2011 01:05 PM
Edited by wanderer at 13:07, 25 Feb 2011.

If I'd be to answer to this, as I'm already doing it, I would say no.
With all those rules all you do is kill the game. Ok luck is involved so?
its part of a game and part of live aswell. Sometimes luck can balance things out to be honest.. considering the towns each side has and so on.
So I think better let things like this.


ps: vlahul te-am tot cautat.. vreau sa joc cu tine. Nu mi te amintesc de pe toh, probabil erai la inceput cand s-a terminat totul.
wan2001ro e id-ul meu de messenger.
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tigris
tigris


Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
posted February 25, 2011 02:06 PM

Sorry if i slide a bit from the subject of the thread.

Personally I have noticed a strange phenomenon with WCL this new season.
Looks like most of the top 10 positions are dominated by some of the new players.Most of them, as stated even in this thread prefer quick maps,2 min turns on L jebus or M balance/3do templates.And if you look on GS also there are alot of players who like to play for WCL with 1-2min turns( some with quick combat too)

Obviously, as Fank0&Angelito stated,not all the players would get into games like this.
Obviously shorter turns means shorter games, shorter games means more time for more games.not necessarily quality games.
Not aiming to bash anyone.Just voicing my opinion.
Maybe a ladder sub-tournament within wcl would be a more appropriate way to rank.
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rafter
rafter

Tavern Dweller
posted August 01, 2017 11:29 PM
Edited by rafter at 23:31, 01 Aug 2017.

I agree with these statements- 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11( 200% difficulty).
For 2)time- every limitation for the time of a turn is bad, but nobody will play a game where he must  just see the monitor and wait 1-2 hours.1 or 2 minutes are enough for buliding, hiring,  and moving heroes. But it is not enough for the battles. May be 8 or 10 minutes is compromising decision.
But, I may play Multiplayer tournaments only for money. Because it is not Fun. When I play Singleplayer, sometimes I do 5 or 6 succesive identical  stupid mistakes, because I think for something different out of the game.I just click on a wrong place several times. But I can reload the game 7 times, so these mistakes are not important.
During Multiplayer, I can not Reload the game, so every mistake is important. And because of that, I must think for the game several hours... It is too exhausting. It is not fun. It is similar to going to work. When I finish a multiplayer game, I am too exhausted. So I may play it only for money.... Or if I play in a team with friends against computers.
And only a tournament in some computer club, in some city, with some judges, will be fair. I know that there are players who may win a  gigant XL  map against 100 thousands azure dragons for 1 day, and the game will not write "Cheater". They also may win my map- "Ultimate revolt" in Heroes2 for 1 day.   But for me, that is cheating.
 

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