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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted February 22, 2011 03:21 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 03:22, 22 Feb 2011.
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Also, quite recently I've started going on a course on church history. Pretty much the first things we went through were the phases of Christianity forming from a Jewish "Jesus movement" into its own religious group. There apparently was a very split view among the apostles and Paul.
Somebody told you some untrue things. Peter said Paul's writings are wisdom from God and are Scripture, inspired by the Spirit of God. All of the other apostles extended the right hand of Christian fellowship to Paul.
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2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
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Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
So point out these passages to the people who told you untrue things and ask them to stop spreading such things.
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On one hand there was the Jewish Christian branch lead by Peter and some other guys who in fact did think that Christians should be circumcized on conversion and abide the Jewish decrees on cleanliness and food.
Paul was with the Hellenistic Christians who were mostly Greek speaking converts and didn't think it as an important thing to live abiding to the Jew stuff.
The Jerusalem based Jewish Christians kind of lost their influence on the way due to the people revolting against the Romans in their home area and the violence caused by that. I think some pretty important temple was destroyed there too. So it's through a "happy" coincidence that the Hellenistic branch lived on beyond the Jewish Christian branch and then eventually became what we know as Christianity today.
Boy, somebody sure shoveled some garbage to you and you ate it right up. The apostles all agreed that a person did not have to be circumcised or follow the Mosaic law to be a Christian.
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Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Boy, whoever told you all that garbage sure is going to be peeved when you prove all his lies to be lies. Rather than just getting up in the person's face and calling him a liar I recommend that you show them the verses that prove what they said is wrong. If they are stunned and apologize for giving you false information they were not lying. Otherwise their deception was deliberate and you know that they are a liar.
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@Elodin: How do you remember all the *Index*: "number":"nubmer"?
1) I have read the Bible through numerous times. I have studied the Bible since I was about 10 years old. About 36 years ago. Rest assured I have seen and answered pretty much every question an anti-theist can throw my way that can be addressed by or about the Bible or Christian history.
2) The Spirit of God brings to me memory the verses I need.
3) I use a Bible prograg called E-Sword, with is free to download and use and has no advertisements.
E-Sword
There are also various online Bible sites that have multiple translations of the Bible as well as various tools for study.
Bible Gateway
Blue Letter Bible
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1) How the religion and the Church explain the evolution of the man and all the ancient beast such as the dinosaurs? In the Bible God create everything in 6 days and rest on the 7th. But we all know that there were creature millions years before the humans, and that the human was a anthropoid ape few million years ago, and the man exist just as we know him from around 200 000 years. Before that there were no humans, as we know them now. If God created all the animals on day 3 or 4 (can't remember) and the man on day 6, why we now know that there were millions of years between the first man and the last dinosaur (for example)?
I've addressed this numerous times in other threads.
1) I am not a young earth creationist. Some Chrisitans are and offer the explaination that dinosaurs perished during the Great Flood.
2) Christians such as Augustine proposed evolution loooooooooong before Darwin came along. But an evolution that was not random chance but guided by God.
3) The days of creation are not literal days. That much is quite obvious. The seventh day never ended (read the Genesis account.) The book of Hebrews says we are still in that day of rest, the seventh day. It is also called the day of salvation. The next "day" will be the day of Judgement, also called the Day of the Lord when Christ returns to judge the world. After that the new creation will commence in full. See, a new week, starting at day 1 when all of the Lord's followers are transformed to be like him.
4) Evolution is an unproven theory.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted February 22, 2011 03:45 AM |
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@SkrentyzMienty
Wow, you have said so very many things that you can't possibly prove. Let me ask you about a couple of things.
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I didn't say it's nonsense to fear death, but making up religion to fool yourself is nonsense.....
Because it WAS made up by humans (do you deny that fact?). All evidence for e.g. Christian faith, is the Bible, which was composed by the "apostles", who were just ordinary, uneducated peasants.
Yes, I deny that Chrisianity was made up by the apostles. Prove it.
Oh, the apostle Paul was one of the most highly educated person in the ancient world. Though a Jew he was also a Roman citizen and he studied with the most famous Jewish rabbi of his time.
Also, Luke (though not an apostle) is considered to be one of the premier ancient historians. He wrote the gospel of Luke and the book of Acts.
Certainly, the writings of Peter and John that are recorded in the New Testament were not written by uneducated men unless you can explain how those apostles wrote such fluent Greek while also being uneducated rabble.
Un oh, it is looking like somebody lied to you about lots of stuff and you believed them.
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It is a fact that there is no life after death (naturally/logically mutually-exclusive terms/ideas), please read my simple explanation/justification: our minds/personalities/identities/memory is all just information contained/stored within our brains(as with all animals), when our body dies, so does our brain, it decays, along with all its neurones and this is simply the end of one's existance as an organism. We are just made up of atoms/ cells/ tissues/ organs...a biological equivalent of a robot that meets its end at death.
Your explaination was indeed simple and quite devoid of any proof that there is no life after death.
I know of no religion that claims a person's brain lives on after death. It is the human spirit/soul that lives on after death. I defy you to prove that it does not.
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Revelation
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 22, 2011 04:12 AM |
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And why is that? What if they find some kinda alternate dimension or something where spirits live and stuff?
I dare you to read this sentence again and take it seriously. Besides, let's pretend this IS true/partially true: what do the spirits in the alternate dimension have to do with you? You still die regardless of what happens in the "alternate dimension". You cannot be two beings at the same time nor at two places at the same time, you cannot do so while being alive nor after death.
well, there are lots of stuffs we can't see, like air or electricity. and while we can't walk through glass or through a wall, some things can. so multiple dimensions might somewhat be possible, like beings existing at the same place at the same time but being unable to interact with each other (somewhat like ghosts)
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Why do I suddenly stop existing because my body ceases to function? You haven't presented any arguments to prove this at all.
What stops existing is your conciousness/memory/intelligence/person as no more electrical impulses are sent because your neurones decay, you (your body) still exists, of course, and is rotting in the ground.
you still leave a print on the planet, like in people's memories for example. also, even after a computer has died, you can still retrieve the data, maybe it works the same for a brain? like the consciousness is still here, but since the brain is dead, no one can make use of it.
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 22, 2011 09:38 AM |
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Why is this very specific thread now mutating again to discussing religion in general and Christian religion specifically versus atheism?
To be specific, I feel that the discussion is completely beside the point: every person has the right to believe something, especially when it has something to do with hope. We hope all the time for something to happen or not happen, and there is nothing wrong with hoping for some lucky "background story" concerning the universe andd our role in it that allows to live on and live infinitely and so on.
The real question is, how these beliefs - any beliefs at all - influence our daily life and incite real action.
I mean, if you believe - to give a general example - that there is an afterlife in which everyone will be fine and dandy, and you jump from a tower because your actual life sucks or seem to suck, this is one thing. The decision is debatable, but, it's your decision to make.
If, however, you see another person whose life, for you, seem to suck badly, and you decide that he shouldn't suffer anymore and push him before a subway, so that he may relish the afterlife, it's definitely NOT your decision to make.
Mind you, I'm NOT talking about a specific religion or even religion at all, just generally about basing decisions people make FOR OTHERS based on their personal belief (with religion qualifying, obviously).
So it's actually pretty irrelevant, whether a couple of people believe in what the rest of the world would deem as completely nuts, as long as there actions based on their beliefs don't affect other people than themselves BADLY or only HYPOTHETICALLY WELL(if they believe, that they have to give everything they own to the poor, fine).
Quite obviously, within these borders all people can believe what they want and even do what they want.
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ohforfsake
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posted February 22, 2011 10:48 AM |
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@JJ: How was the conclusion of what 'the real question' is, derived?
Every person is certainly entitled to their own thoughts, despite what they may be.
However developing an improved system of belief requires one to challenge ones current beliefs.
Challenge through measurements: Do the world fit with my belief system? If not, then I adapt.
Challenge through input: Maybe someone else can make better sense than me?
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JollyJoker
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posted February 22, 2011 11:12 AM |
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You are not required to challenge your beliefs or compare it with scientific knowledge and so on. As you are not required to "improve" it.
The conclusion is derived from the fact that problems are not rooting in what we may or may not belief - problems arise when we try to make others belief what we believe or when we try to force actions onto others that our personal beliefs seem to demand from us.
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ohforfsake
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posted February 22, 2011 11:19 AM |
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As you are not required to "improve" it.
Where did you get this from?
Your point, I believe, is valid. But it doesn't tell the entire story.
There's more to the world than avoiding problem. There's the whole different branch, consisting of improvement. As of such, it's certainly important, but it's at most, 'an important question' and not 'the real question'.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 22, 2011 11:50 AM |
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I think you are wrong, because it IS the entire story.
"Improvement" is an abstract word because it has an absolute meaning although you can't say in many cases whether something actually IS an improvement, at least when beliefs are concerned.
If science says that the world is a couple billion years old, life so many years and humans so many years, then that has no bearing whatsoever on what is written in the Bible and whether there is a god who created everything or not. Saying, God took a couple biilion years to create everything, is no improvement of the actual belief.
In fact, NO scientific revelations can actually disprove that there may be "more" than meets the scientific eye or that things only may SEEM the way they are, like we are taking part in a very complex computer game of which we are not aware of.
On the other hand, if a person for example believes he or she is god Himself, but keeps this to himself as a personal belief or even a secret - who cares? It gets problematic only, if that person decides to actually and actively change the life of others that person maybe doesn't like, if you get my drift.
So, no, believe doesn't require improvement, as long as it doesn't lead to acts involving others. If you are what the docs call terminally ill, there is nothing wrong with believing you'll make it this time around, hoping against hope. There is no need to improve that belief by asking the docs about probabilities and maybe lose hope, when they say that chances are not good.
In everyday life it is REASONABLE to try and "improve" on beliefs. But that means only that it makes sense in everyday life to VALIDATE beliefs via evidence. If you believe the cooker is cold, it is reasonable to validate that belief by checking first, before you put your hand on it, lest you get no unpleasant surprise.
But you are not required to. You may get burned - your problem. Problems can arise only from trying to make others belief what you believe and act accordingly.
That includes actively prohibiting or sabotaging the reasonable efforts of others to improve on their beliefs.
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ohforfsake
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posted February 22, 2011 12:15 PM |
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I'm at a loss of what the text above is a response to.
When I read stuff like:
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So, no, believe doesn't require improvement, as long as it doesn't lead to acts involving others.
I get the impression that two different topics have been mixed and merged into one.
I agree with most things written above. I'm not going to nitpick the details of the examples. Rather I'll try to generate an overview.
JJ: The real question is how beliefs influence your daily life, reality.
OFFS: How did the conclusion of it being the real question arive?
JJ: Beliefs alone have no influence on reality. Only actions.
OFFS: This only prevents negative actions. It doesn't produce positive action, i.e. improvement of your daily life. Therefore, it's not the entire story, but at most 'an important question'.
OFFS: To develop an improved system of belief, ones current beliefs needs to be challenged.
JJ: You're not required to challenge your belief, because you're not required to improve it.
OFFS: "Required to improve your belief", where did you get this from?
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted February 22, 2011 01:50 PM |
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You cannot be [...] at two places at the same time, you cannot do so while being alive nor after death.
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How did you come to this conclusion?
Oh sorry, my bad, I take it You CAN be at two places at once, good for you.
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What stops the conciousness/memory/intelligence/person from start existing again, possibly at another location?
Also, I don't understand how come you wrote intelligence in there.
Everything? Because it is completely erased as the neurones and various chemicals containing it decay to become plant fertiliser..
Intelligence is just one of the aspects of a mind.
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I said that nothing is preventing consciousness, giving it's uniquely defined, to be possible to be reproduced.
It CANNOT be reproduced. Just as if you burn and chop your computer up with a samurai sword, all the information is gone and/or unretrievable, but the metal/plastic materials it's made of themselves, are of course still useful and can be manufactured into something else. The computer's data doesn't however, magically jump out of the computer as it is being destroyed into thin air, or some alternate dimension.
@Elodin
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Wow, you have said so very many things that you can't possibly prove. Let me ask you about a couple of things.
You cannot possibly prove any of your claims either. And the things I said, I explained quite clearly IMO, where proof for most of my statements is undisputably given by science (and you as well wouldn't deny that). Some, I admit, are only my predictions and opinions, and I'm just expressing them.
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Yes, I deny that Chrisianity was made up by the apostles. Prove it.
I don't really intend or desire to prove anything to anyone, whose so deeply implemented religious stories are preventing them from considering logical alternatives.
It is unimportant WHO composed the Bible, it doesn't make it any more or less reliable if the apostles, me, you, J.K.Rowling, Stephen King, Tolkien, or Jackie Chan has written it. It is still just a fantasy of some (no matter how educated) people who dwelled the areas of today's Israel etc. 2000 years ago.
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Certainly, the writings of Peter and John that are recorded in the New Testament were not written by uneducated men unless you can explain how those apostles wrote such fluent Greek while also being uneducated rabble.
As I said, education has no impact on the fact the bible was made up, obviously. Additionally, if they WERE educated, there must have been some really strong drugs/halucinogens available to them to write such nonsense...
Jesus, was just Mary and Joseph's son, an ordinary human, who of course, was a good person, however he must have had some mental illnesses to consider himself god. 
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Un oh, it is looking like somebody lied to you about lots of stuff and you believed them.
haha, what? I have never even met a person with the same views as me, and my opinion is mine and my own. To me it is looking like somebody wrote a Lord of the Rings kind fantasy book, and you actually believed in it.
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It is the human spirit/soul that lives on after death. I defy you to prove that it does not.
Seriously, there IS NO SUCH THING as a soul. Humans have no spirits. Wow..
@Fauch
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well, there are lots of stuffs we can't see, like air or electricity. and while we can't walk through glass or through a wall, some things can. so multiple dimensions might somewhat be possible, like beings existing at the same place at the same time but being unable to interact with each other (somewhat like ghosts)
True about air and electricity, however those can be easily measured. Multiple Dimensions? Maybe. But as you mentioned - no interaction, and additionally, human brain matter isn't some divine device, it doesn't gain an ability to traverse through dimensions after death, it rots. And that's all there is to it I'm afraid.
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you still leave a print on the planet, like in people's memories for example. also, even after a computer has died, you can still retrieve the data, maybe it works the same for a brain? like the consciousness is still here, but since the brain is dead, no one can make use of it.
What do memories of you have to do with you (as a concious being)? Nothing. You might remember someone close to you that has died, but your memories are just pictures/sounds/information stored by your brain and are retrievable by it, obtained through various senses, it does not, however, in any way enable the person that died to "live".
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So it's actually pretty irrelevant, whether a couple of people believe in what the rest of the world would deem as completely nuts, as long as there actions based on their beliefs don't affect other people than themselves BADLY or only HYPOTHETICALLY WELL
Religion is pathetic. It HAS lead to mass murders, exploition, deaths of innocents/people of diffferent faiths or no faith, and Wars. I simply hate humans in what they are capable of, and the deep hipocricy they can fall into, while remaining unpunishable, because of course, no one messes with the friggin mafia church that does absolutely NO good for the community and just drains money from clueless believers  
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JollyJoker
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posted February 22, 2011 02:17 PM |
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Ohfor, umm, no, the summary isn't correct.
What I see here is, yet again, an - off-topic(!) "religion sucks because their beliefs are bull and also they lead to a lot of bad things".
However, in my opinion that is completely beside the point, because
a) beliefs are not required to make sense for everyone and a person has the RIGHT to believe whatever that person wants to believe
and b) the question is WHY reliion leads to bad things and what is wrong with it, WHEN it leads to bad things.
And here the question is not whether it "improves". The only question is whether it demands something from their believers and whether it demands something that influences or forces non-believers.
To make it short: you can believe anything you want, no matter how foolish, unreasonable, far-out or unlikely, but it gets bad when it requires or incites you to do things with or to others that would be considered wrong otherwise.
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ohforfsake
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posted February 22, 2011 02:18 PM |
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@JJ
The summary shows how I see it.
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nothing is preventing consciousness, giving it's uniquely defined, to be possible to be reproduced.
It CANNOT be reproduced. Just as if you burn and chop your computer up with a samurai sword, all the information is gone and/or unretrievable
So if I reconfigure the components of a computer to match that of the one that was destroyed, then the computer doesn't withold the same information as the one that was destroyed?
Even in that case, all it would mean is that the data of the computer is not uniquely defined. I.e. various different set of components can give an identical outcome. In that case your analogy would be irrelevant.
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Seriously, there IS NO SUCH THING as a soul.
What is a soul?
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Doomforge
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Retired Hero
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posted February 22, 2011 02:34 PM |
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Wow, Skrentyzmienty vs Elodin is like, THE battle of OSM! Get your popcorn guys, this will be interesting (and it was inevitable too  )
@Skrentyzmienty
Well, of course you might be different, however, I recall myself having that flame of "I'm right" in me until 17yo, where I started changing fast (and still am). I only guess you will follow that path too, might be wrong ofc 
However, I actually miss that time. I would give a lot to be 15-16yo again...
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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ohforfsake
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posted February 22, 2011 02:41 PM |
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Then the 15 year old GF's would be 9 year olds?
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Doomforge
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posted February 22, 2011 02:43 PM |
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I think I'd stick to equal age then ;D
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted February 22, 2011 02:45 PM |
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What is a soul?
Something that doesn't exist
@Doomforge
Pozyjemy Zobaczymy
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ohforfsake
Promising
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posted February 22, 2011 02:47 PM |
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Do you know what a soul is?
If you don't know what it is, how can you know if it exists or not?
If you do know what it is, then what is it and how do you know it doesn't exist?
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Adrius
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Stand and fight!
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posted February 22, 2011 02:52 PM |
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Then the 15 year old GF's would be 9 year olds?
Oh god the OWNAGE! Hahahahahaha! 
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Cepheus
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posted February 22, 2011 02:55 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 14:56, 22 Feb 2011.
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@Skrentyzmienty
Well, of course you might be different, however, I recall myself having that flame of "I'm right" in me until 17yo, where I started changing fast (and still am). I only guess you will follow that path too, might be wrong ofc
However, I actually miss that time. I would give a lot to be 15-16yo again...
I'm not so sure I'd give a lot to get back the moronic hubris necessary to waltz into a religion thread and shamelessly - and, later, embarrassingly - force my perception of the deepest truths of the universe down everybody's throat like, self-defeatingly enough, every other prophet of yore and myth. I'm not sure whether I ever actually did that at HC, but I'm certain I don't want to check back and find out.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Doomforge
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posted February 22, 2011 02:57 PM |
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It's not about that. It's about facing the world with so much fire in you Great thing. Oh well, maybe I just feel old and that's it 
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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This thread is pages long: 
