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Adrius
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posted February 21, 2011 07:42 PM |
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commonly considered wrong or aggressive to question it and state the truth about the absence of "paranormal" occurrences and beings.
Oh dear.
Spreading the truth to the masses are we? Sounds familiar somehow...
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Doomforge
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posted February 21, 2011 08:16 PM |
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There's virtually no difference between extreme theist and extreme atheist. 
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted February 21, 2011 09:09 PM |
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Humans fear the unknown. By saying they don't, one is either out of touch with reality, or blatantly lying to cover his own insecurity. It's not "bravery", it's stupidity.
What if I say I'm not afraid of the unkown and I'm not out of touch with reality or lying? What does that make me? A freak? Is being curious a sin making you inhuman?
Get real DF, this is below your level.
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Doomforge
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posted February 21, 2011 10:08 PM |
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What if I say I'm not afraid of the unkown and I'm not out of touch with reality or lying? What does that make me?
A person unaware of his real fear.
Trust me, our brains "just" work that way. There's nothing noble or brave in trying to act different.
Skrentyzmienty is very intelligent, but also young. Looking at his old posts about 5 years later, he won't recognize himself. Been there, done that. Well, who didn't? 
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Adrius
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posted February 21, 2011 11:09 PM |
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Skrentyzmienty is very intelligent, but also young. Looking at his old posts about 5 years later, he won't recognize himself.
Watch out. There's no argument more annoying for a youngster than "you'll understand when you're older"
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blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted February 21, 2011 11:18 PM |
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You should see some of my posts from back when I first went to a forum. I was ~17 and I could not make a coherent post.
In that regard I suppose nothing's changed, though.
Truer words have never been spoken. But that's okay ****sake-boy, I'm still a big fan of your work.
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted February 21, 2011 11:29 PM |
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Why is it nonsense to fear death?
How come the limits of science is no argument, and towards what question is it not an argument?
What makes the belief of life after death, sad?
How do you know the truth about afterlife is made up?
I didn't say it's nonsense to fear death, but making up religion to fool yourself is nonsense.
The limits of science is no argument for the existence of god.
The fact it's untrue alone.
Because it WAS made up by humans (do you deny that fact?). All evidence for e.g. Christian faith, is the Bible, which was composed by the "apostles", who were just ordinary, uneducated peasants.
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Humans fear the unknown. By saying they don't, one is either out of touch with reality, or blatantly lying to cover his own insecurity. It's not "bravery", it's stupidity.
Yes I agree, it's a simple natural psychological mechanism to fear e.g. loss of life. I don't say I don't fear death, but I am personally indifferent to it. It is a fact that there is no life after death (naturally/logically mutually-exclusive terms/ideas), please read my simple explanation/justification: our minds/personalities/identities/memory is all just information contained/stored within our brains(as with all animals), when our body dies, so does our brain, it decays, along with all its neurones and this is simply the end of one's existance as an organism. We are just made up of atoms/ cells/ tissues/ organs...a biological equivalent of a robot that meets its end at death.
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A person unaware of his real fear.
This is quite accurate psychology you are yousing here, although one might simply IGNORE fear and be indifferent to it, while still remaining aware of the thing that causes it.
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Skrentyzmienty is very intelligent, but also young. Looking at his old posts about 5 years later, he won't recognize himself. Been there, done that. Well, who didn't?
Well thank you for that remark , although in my individual case age has no impact on intelligence and personality; I have changed very slightly in terms of personality, and not at all in terms of views/opinions as far as I can remember/ being 16 at the present moment. I assure you that your theory(while evidently very true for most) doesn't apply to me, and shall be proven wrong in 5 years time when we come back here to discuss H7 (hopefully  ).
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Skrentyzmienty is very intelligent, but also young. Looking at his old posts about 5 years later, he won't recognize himself.
Watch out. There's no argument more annoying for a youngster than "you'll understand when you're older"
EDIT: To me this argument is just too monotonous and too often used on me, wrongly, so I just specified above why it doesn't apply to my person, in a calm manner, surprised?
On a side note, I think the term "youngster" shouldn't really be assigned to a 16 year old, unless you passed the 70 border, which you didn't
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted February 22, 2011 12:02 AM |
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I think so as well. I can't find anyone claiming otherwise though. What were you responding to?
Oh trust me there are many people who make this ridiculous claim: "if man cannot prove everything and know everything, there obviously has to be someone that created it all and gave it all a purpose" or some other nonsense, I don't really remember exactly.
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please read my simple explanation/justification: our minds/personalities/identities/memory is all just information contained/stored within our brains
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That describes memory, feelings, actions, thoughts, senses, etc., but doesn't explain consciousness though.
Since it's consciousness that's the key element of preservation and any memory can always be added, I don't understand how your argument creates the "facts" quoted above.
Please stop trying to catch me out on my words, I forgot to add conciousness to the list along with memory/ personality. Conciousness is also contained within the brain, where else do you think? in the kidneys?
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That may all be true, I don't know. Yet it does not prevent an after life, which may be exactly like described in the bible, to exist.
For me the idea of an afterlife completely false and I explained it before, if you want to believe in it, your choice. What does, however, make the made up fantasies like the Bible/Koran/whatever, different to e.g. Lord of the Rings? Nothing.
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Adrius
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posted February 22, 2011 12:04 AM |
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In my world there is no such thing as truth. There are only theories.
****, I mean... do you believe in gravity Skryntzdude? That's another crazy unproven theory... yet people choose to believe in it because they find it logical.
You talk about science contra religion, but I think what you have done is turned science into your own religion. By claiming that, e.g. we are all just biological robots and that THAT is the truth, you are working against the core of science: theories that replace theories. Facts are only accepted because science needs a stepping stone to further their research on, but even those are replaced/improved as time goes by.
What will happen to your absolute truth when science manages to create a theory for after-life that is supported by good arguments? What happens to your world then?
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted February 22, 2011 12:07 AM |
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Humans don't fear unknown naturally. You don't hang around with small kids do you DF.
Humans are naturally curious not fearful about the unknown. Only later when the society puts you into that nice little hole of yours and you create your own little world around you, will you be afraid of, no, still not the unkown, but the change it might bring to your world.
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SkrentyzMienty
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posted February 22, 2011 12:14 AM |
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OK, First of all, science is not my religion and I do not consider it the ultimate truth. I do, however (and so do you) know that, what science has ACHIEVED SO FAR (theories aside, I agree that many are doubtful, e.g. the Big Bang) is 99% true and reliable; medicine, mathematics, whatever.
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****, I mean... do you believe in gravity Skryntzdude? That's another crazy unproven theory... yet people choose to believe in it because they find it logical.
So you want fall and splatter on the street after jumping from a skyscraper, Adriusdude? amazing
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What will happen to your absolute truth when science manages to create a theory for after-life that is supported by good arguments? What happens to your world then?
Such theories exist already. And good arguments will never be found (scientifically) for afterlife. Life is your organism functioning in all the possible aspects, when you die, it ceases to do so, obviously.
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JoonasTo
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posted February 22, 2011 12:16 AM |
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Skrentyzmienty is very intelligent, but also young. Looking at his old posts about 5 years later, he won't recognize himself.
Watch out. There's no argument more annoying for a youngster than "you'll understand when you're older"
Which is just a nicer way of saying:
"Snow off, I can't be bothered to explain it to you."
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Adrius
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posted February 22, 2011 12:26 AM |
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OK, First of all, science is not my religion and I do not consider it the ultimate truth. I do, however (and so do you) know that, what science has ACHIEVED SO FAR (theories aside, I agree that many are doubtful, e.g. the Big Bang) is 99% true and reliable; medicine, mathematics, whatever.
You saying that there's a 1% chance that you're incorrect? There's hope for you then
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So you want fall and splatter on the street after jumping from a skyscraper, Adriusdude? amazing
Nah, I'll assume that it'll kill me.
I dare you to try to actually explain gravity to me though. I sure as hell can't grasp why bigger objects should attract smaller ones.
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Such theories exist already. And good arguments will never be found (scientifically) for afterlife. Life is your organism functioning in all the possible aspects, when you die, it ceases to do so, obviously.
And why is that? What if they find some kinda alternate dimension or something where spirits live and stuff?
Why do I suddenly stop existing because my body ceases to function? You haven't presented any arguments to prove this at all.
And neither have I any arguments for proving that there is an afterlife to you. Which brings me back to my earlier statement...
We can't know for sure, so dismissing it as false is as foolish as claiming it's true.
Discuss, by all means; it's what brings us forward... but don't just cry out what's right and what's false.
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ohforfsake
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posted February 22, 2011 12:30 AM |
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Conciousness is also contained within the brain, where else do you think?
I as well find the most likely location of the cause of consciousness to be within the brain.
However, something I think is important. Memory is created through experience, it depends on your senses.
Senses trigger different stuff depending on the environment.
Thoughts, I don't know. It depends on whether you believe in free will. Then it is either a mix of adaption through positive - and negative reward loops, i.e. emotions and the consciouss decision possible through the will, or the former alone.
Emotions, the reward system based on those who've been able to survive and carry on their genes, i.e. depends on the environment.
All these together produce actions.
Thereby, every instance of the brain, to the extend of my current imagination, is something that's created through time, depending heavily on the outside world. Everything, except, consciousness.
Or at least it depends, but here there's really no facts or evidence. After all, we don't even know what consciousness is. You may be the same from person from one arbitrary time moment to the next, merely deciding differently. Ultimatily being the same inner observer that your memory is telling you, that you are.
Anyway, as it goes, by using the word, consciousness, as the definition of existence and thereby the seperation between something alive and the biological machinery, the arguments is very simple, as follows. If consciousness is indeed seeded in the brain, which we both find most likely, then the combination of molecules that creates consciousness is unique and there are thereby no stopping for that specific configuration to reappear. Heck nothing, for what I know, is stopping it to appear simultaneously in different locations.
I hope I did not get lost in the long text, this is not another poem, describing my thoughts as I took a dump. I'm trying to seperate that where memory, and other features of the brain is build, or ultimately depending on the environment and often changing. Consciousness, defined as what defines the true you, though it may or may not be unchanging inside your body, it's, pr. definition, certainly something unchanging within itself (...A different you, is not you). As such, if one believes consciousness is seeded within the brain, then the configuration of atoms that defines your consciousness, given it's unique (which it is, if it's unchanging within your body), is something eternal. For consciousness to exist, it may depend on a number of factors, but as soon as the given individual can be uniquely expressed through a set of atoms, it's like you've your personal on/off button.
Thereby, nothing is preventing there to be a place, unknown to us, where this button get turned on. Not only that, but where our memory as well gets added correctly.
@Adrius; I agree with your points. I just think the word, logical, may be a bad choice. The main point in science, as I understand it, is to make measurements of the world and through these measurements, be able to predict future events. A theory that does not describe the world, well it's not worthless, but I'm not certain it can be called a scientific theory, though it can be very logical. I think many aspects of mathemathics are like this.
All in all, as I understand it, science finds more and more likely correlation between events. Not causation. Though I may be using the words differently than others would, I don't know.
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You don't hang around with small kids do you DF.
FIFTEEN YEAR OLD GF'S!!!!!!!
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Adrius
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posted February 22, 2011 12:41 AM |
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I believe that decisions made by a person are based on what that individual thought was most logical at the time.
If I choose to believe that jumping off a skyscraper will reduce me to a stain on the ground, it is likely because I find that result logical considering how things tend to get squashed when dropped from a high distance.
Hence I found the choice of the word logical... well logical.
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ohforfsake
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posted February 22, 2011 12:49 AM |
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I guess that Logic is often builded upon experience, so your choose of word may have been completely stop on.
I just got these scary thoughts about the ancient greeks, who through "logic" deviced the laws of the world, without actually really doing any proper testing. As such, these theories did not describe the real world, yet were completely logical. I.e. the premise they used, was wrong, I believe. On the other hand, when they had a premise like a circle was the perfect shape and as such planets would be moving in circlets, it's maybe not so strange that some of their guesses were way off.
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted February 22, 2011 12:56 AM |
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I dare you to try to actually explain gravity to me though. I sure as hell can't grasp why bigger objects should attract smaller ones.
I dare you to search in Wikipedia or your science book and be enlightened
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And why is that? What if they find some kinda alternate dimension or something where spirits live and stuff?
I dare you to read this sentence again and take it seriously. Besides, let's pretend this IS true/partially true: what do the spirits in the alternate dimension have to do with you? You still die regardless of what happens in the "alternate dimension". You cannot be two beings at the same time nor at two places at the same time, you cannot do so while being alive nor after death.
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Why do I suddenly stop existing because my body ceases to function? You haven't presented any arguments to prove this at all.
What stops existing is your conciousness/memory/intelligence/person as no more electrical impulses are sent because your neurones decay, you (your body) still exists, of course, and is rotting in the ground.
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We can't know for sure, so dismissing it as false is as foolish as claiming it's true.
Discuss, by all means; it's what brings us forward... but don't just cry out what's right and what's false.
I am a fool then. Yes, discussion is positive, and I'm sorry if I sound a little, as some people call it "fanatic", these are, after all, my beliefs, adn I just want to share them, everyone else likewise. And if you really would feel it more appropriate, I'll stop phrasing "something is false" to "I think that it is false"
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then the combination of molecules that creates consciousness is unique and there are thereby no stopping for that specific configuration to reappear. Heck nothing, for what I know, is stopping it to appear simultaneously in different locations.
Oh yes there is, atoms do not clone themselves or teleport, what was once your nervous system etc simply changes into other materials, and contributes to the soil, or atmosphere via gas emission from your dead body being decayed by chemical reactions and bacteria.
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Adrius
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posted February 22, 2011 01:08 AM |
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Edited by Adrius at 01:08, 22 Feb 2011.
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Someone remind me what the hell I'm doing in the OSM? Somebody? No?
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And if you really would feel it more appropriate, I'll stop phrasing "something is false" to "I think that it is false"
Yes, that would be quite a good step towards more pleasant discussions.
Not saying that this one was unpleasant, but people can get a bit agitated when someone claims this and that as absolute truth; as seen with our resident Elodin who is involved in 90% of all overly heated discussions.
@Ohforf: Ah yeah, well I don't think there's any universal logic or anything, it all differs from person to person.
Skryntzydude finds the non-existance of deities logical, and I find the "how the hell should I know" approach most logical.
So it's based on personal experience, as you say.
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SkrentyzMienty
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posted February 22, 2011 01:15 AM |
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Not saying that this one was unpleasant, but people can get a bit agitated when someone claims this and that as absolute truth; as seen with our resident Elodin who is involved in 90% of all overly heated discussions.
Oh yes, I saw the endless biblical quotes..
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ohforfsake
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posted February 22, 2011 01:17 AM |
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The point about gravity, I believe, is that where we can describe and predict the effects of gravity, we have no idea what causes objects with mass to produce a force of attraction.
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You cannot be [...] at two places at the same time, you cannot do so while being alive nor after death.
How did you come to this conclusion?
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Why do I suddenly stop existing because my body ceases to function? You haven't presented any arguments to prove this at all.
What stops existing is your conciousness/memory/intelligence/person
What stops the conciousness/memory/intelligence/person from start existing again, possibly at another location?
Also, I don't understand how come you wrote intelligence in there.
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atoms do not clone themselves or teleport
I never intended that to be my point. I said that nothing is preventing consciousness, giving it's uniquely defined, to be possible to be reproduced. Which in other words is equivalent to what is usually understood as an after life, I believe.
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"how the hell should I know"
That is the approach I also favour the most, currently.
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