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| Thread: a biblical hypothetical |  This thread is pages long: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 10 20 29 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
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posted February 22, 2011 06:01 PM |
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@JJ
It's not off topic.
Off course it is. If you review the initial post, the issue here is how the Bible would evaluate a certain situation and what consequences it would have - again from the pov of the Bible.
So you can discuss over different interpretations of what the Bible would say.
However, discussing whether it is silly to assume an afterlife or what may or may not humans motivate to write a book like that is OFF TOPIC.
It's like starting a thread by presenting a hypothetical court case and invite to discuss possible sentences and outcomes in a specific land with a specific law - and then people start to discuss whether the law and court system of that country is rubbish or not and whether there really is something like a law or should be.
OFF TOPIC.
And boring.
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SkrentyzMienty
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posted February 22, 2011 06:15 PM |
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All I have to say is, that since people did go off topic to discuss quite different matters, it evidently is NOT boring (or discussion-unworthy)
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ohforfsake
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posted February 22, 2011 06:27 PM |
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@JJ - The thread is not an invitation of interpretation of the bible, but an invitation of certain people to answer a set of questions.
As the current discussion is derived from such a set of question, presented by another poster, it's merely how the topic have developed.
Sure there's a lot of nitpicking that's clouding this thread beyond recognision, but unless you're willing to admit that..., what? 90%? of all of your own posts, are off topic, then I'd not see this as off topic.
Also, you know the rules about back seat moderation, it's not wanted.
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And boring.
Then don't participate. We aren't here for your amusement.
@griffinguy
If consciousness is uniquely defined, it means that it can be recreated. You can destroy every holder of consciousness you want, it doesn't matter as long as there's the material required to create consciousness.
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But matter is MODIFIED. And recreation of your mind after death is impossible because your neurones are decaying (broken down) and that matter is TRANSFORMED into other materials.
Modified matter? Invest some energy, raise the entropy and modify it back!
The reaction direction of any decay and transformation of matter can be turned around by investing sufficient energy.
Beside, why go through that trouble? Just use some new neurons, configured to match the consciousness of you.
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In the crazy and impossible scenario of recreating your neurones from the soil you are buried in, they would be empty of information anyways, hence not your concience anymore anyway.
Empty of information? Is information some kind of fluid? What does it have to do with consciousness?
You of course make the configuration identical to what represents the consciousness in question. It's not a question of the specific atoms applied, but how they're interlinked, I believe. At least if we're to use your computer analogies.
@Markkur
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the initial post was directed at "bible-scholars" and assuming here, which I took to mean; those that know it with some reliability, try to follow it and nothing more.
There's a context to take into consideration in my opinion.
It's bixie who's posting and he's often had his discussions with elodin. As such, I'm quite convinced this thread is nothing more than an invitation to ask religious questions to anyone who may want to answer.
You can say that it's off topic to ask for specification of previous posts, especially when these stretches over several pages. Optimally, such stuff would be taken care off through pm's and edited within the thread to correspond the best possible representation. In reality that's just not how osm works.
An easy example of this is that all who've complained about this thread, are guilty themselves of what they're complaining about. In this sense at least.
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markkur
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posted February 22, 2011 06:42 PM |
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If you review the initial post, the issue here is how the Bible would evaluate a certain situation and what consequences it would have - again from the pov of the Bible.
I agree with you completely, not that you were waiting for that.
Further, to zero-in on your point; the initial post was directed at "bible-scholars" and assuming here, which I took to mean; those that know it with some reliability, try to follow it and nothing more. I know it fairly well but do not claim to be a "Scholar", so it could be I do not fit the initial definition and therefore should have not posted even once
Frankly, and as off-topic as nearly the whole thread that precedes:
I would take 1 Mother Teresa over a 1000 bible scholars...any day.
Make a great day
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VokialBG
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posted February 22, 2011 06:44 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 18:49, 22 Feb 2011.
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1) I am not a young earth creationist. Some Chrisitans are and offer the explaination that dinosaurs perished during the Great Flood.
And why Noah missed them, because they were too big? As I know he took one pear per animal, and he never missed even one sort of animal.
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3) The days of creation are not literal days. That much is quite obvious. The seventh day never ended (read the Genesis account.) The book of Hebrews says we are still in that day of rest, the seventh day. It is also called the day of salvation. The next "day" will be the day of Judgement, also called the Day of the Lord when Christ returns to judge the world. After that the new creation will commence in full. See, a new week, starting at day 1 when all of the Lord's followers are transformed to be like him.
So, according to this the anthropoid ape existed but they have nothing to do with the humans, and they vanished because Noah missed them too?
And if there is no evolution, why one skeleton lead to another one. I mean why when one of the sort of prehistoric man disappear another one, perfecter sort appear? And there are no later skeletons of the older one.
I also have another question. If God created men, why he was unknown for the rest of the humanity except part of Europe, Africa and Asia at the beginning?
Does this mean that the native americans were hard core sinners after they used to worship false gods and that Gods punishment to them was sending there the Western Europeans killing almost all of them?
If this is true, and that was exacly the punishment, does this mean that the men who killed them never did a sin (by killing another man), since they were "Gods weapon" or something for doing that, so it was never their will but Gods will?
If thats also true, does it mean that God is not loving everyone and really forgiving anyone, since they never had a chance?
Why God punish anyone on Earth, since there is hell and soon or later everyone is going to day, and be judged and send there if need? Isn't sending someones soul to hell the actual punishment? If yes, why he killed the native americans (for example)? Wasn't there a way to forgive them or prove before them that he is the right God and etc... and at least not killing them all but waiting for them to just die and send them to hell, or this is too slow procedure?
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And why God contact only with jews at first, he created all, right? And all are his children. Why he does not talk to them and they get to know about him later? Why not even one man who is not jew never knew about him at first?
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SkrentyzMienty
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posted February 22, 2011 08:03 PM |
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WOW! It just came to me. Contradicting and bashing such idiocy as the Bible is not even worth my time. I am out of the discussion for now.
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Elodin
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posted February 22, 2011 08:16 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 20:27, 22 Feb 2011.
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And why Noah missed them, because they were too big? As I know he took one pear per animal, and he never missed even one sort of animal.
The basic argument is that young dinosaurs went aboard the ark but that the world after the flood changed dramatically and most dinosaurs were unable to cope with the changes and became extinct.
Like I said, I'm not a young earth creationist so I'm not to argue their case for them. Here is a link and I'm sure if you want to know more about young earth creeationists you can google the term.
Clicky
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Many people think dinosaurs were all huge animals that could peer over the tops of tall trees. But not all dinosaurs were huge like the Gigantosaurus fossil above. Many dinosaurs were small — some were about the size of young chickens, and some (like Mussaurus) were not much bigger than the dinosaur tooth pictured at right.
Obviously Noah wasn't going to stuff a pair of 30-meter high dinosaurs in the Ark, even though Noah's Ark was huge. So what did he do?
Small dinosaurs would fit on the Ark easily. And remember that even the largest adult dinosaurs started their lives as small babies.
In the late 1970s, skeletons and eggs of tiny juvenile Mussaurus dinosaurs were found in Patagonia in southern Argentina. Mussaurus means “mouse reptile”, and the name is apt because the best-preserved Mussaurus skeleton is so small it fits comfortably in a human hand.
New Scientist of 6 December, 2000 announced the discovery of fossils of the smallest known adult dinosaur. These “microraptors” were only 39 centimeters (15 inches) long — 24 centimeters (9½ inches) of which were its tail.
We don't know how many species of dinosaur God sent to Noah to take on the Ark. If the largest types were included, they were probably taken when they were still youngish but able to breed. Many animals can mate long before they are fully grown.
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And if there is no evolution, why one skeleton lead to another one. I mean why when one of the sort of prehistoric man disappear another one, perfecter sort appear? And there are no later skeletons of the older one.
I did not say there was no evolution. I said it is an unproven theory. I also pointed out that Augustine and other Chrisitans put forward the idea of evolution long before Darwin did, based on the Hebrew text of Genesis.
Actually, there are no links between the skeletons and there have been a number of confirmed frauds committed by scientists to try to establish such links. I posted a list of some a while back.
I'm not going to research all those links again (you can read through my old posts) but I'll post a link a differnt article that you should read about this subject.
Clicky
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The public generally has no idea just how scarce, and how fragmentary (literally!), the “evidence” for human evolution actually is. Harvard professor Richard Lewontin lamented this very fact when he stated:
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When we consider the remote past, before the origin of the actual species Homo sapiens, we are faced with a fragmentary and disconnected fossil record. Despite the excited and optimistic claims that have been made by some paleontologists, no fossil hominid species can be established as our direct ancestor.... (1995, p. 163, emp. added).
The evolutionary tree that has been presented to demonstrate the origin of humans has two main branches (and assorted twigs) within the primate family (hominidae). One consists of Australopithecus, while the other is composed of the genus Homo. The categories to which various fossils have been assigned may be more telling than we first thought, for evidence now exists which demonstrates that all fossils in the Australopithecus group share a common trait—one buried deep within the ear—while all those in the genus Homo share a completely different physiology, likewise related to the ear. Richard Leakey commented:
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At a meeting of anthropologists in April 1994, Fred Spoor, of the University of Liverpool, described the semicircular canals in humans and apes. The two vertical canals are significantly enlarged in humans compared with those in apes, a difference Spoor interprets as an adaptation to the extra demands of upright balance in a bipedal species. What of early human species? Spoor’s observations are truly startling. In all species of the genus Homo, the inner ear structure is indistinguishable from that of modern humans. Similarly, in all species of Australopithecus, the semicircular canals look like those of apes... (1994, pp. 34-36).
Thus it appears that, as creationists have contended, all fossils can be placed into one of two groups: apes or humans. Furthermore, it is practically impossible to determine which “family tree” one should accept. At an annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science some years ago, anthropologists from all over the world descended on New York City to view hominid fossils exhibited by the American Museum of Natural History. Reporting on this exhibit, Science News had this to say:
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One sometimes wonders if orangutans, chimps and gorillas ever sit around the tree, contemplating which is the closest relative of man. (And would they want to be?) Maybe they even chuckle at human scientists’ machinations as they race to draw the definitive map of evolution on earth. If placed on top of one another, all these competing versions of our evolutionary highways would make the Los Angeles freeway system look like County Road 41 in Elkhart, Indiana (see “Whose Ape Is It, Anyway?,” 1984, 125:361, parenthetical comment in orig.).
How, in light of such admissions, can evolutionary scientists possibly defend the idea of ape/human evolution as a “scientifically proven fact”?
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I also have another question. If God created men, why he was unknown for the rest of the humanity except part of Europe, Africa and Asia at the beginning?
Sorry, but people in all parts of the world believe in a deity. You seem to be under the misimpression that most of the world is atheistic? Quite the opposite. Only a tiny fraction of people who have ever lived have been silly enough to think the universe created itself.
As mankind spread out over the world different teachings about God became corrupted. But a remnant were faithful to God.
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Does this mean that the native americans were hard core sinners after they used to worship false gods and that Gods punishment to them was sending there the Western Europeans killing almost all of them?
No.
But we know atheists (Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pol, Mao, ect) have murdered over 250 million people in the past 100 years because of their hatred of religous people and other reasons. Anti-theist atheism is the most destructive religion manking has ever known (at least in recorded history.)
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And why God contact only with jews at first, he created all, right? And all are his children. Why he does not talk to them and they get to know about him later? Why not even one man who is not jew never knew about him at first?
Huh? God's first contact with man was in the garden of Eden when he created man and he has remained in contact with man ever since. Try actually reading the Bible rather than anti-theist propaganda.
The Jews were to be a nation of priets to spread the knowledge of God to the world. Israel was chosen for a mission, to bless all the world. God would reveal himself in greater and greather ways and they were to express that to the world. Untimately God would manifest himself as the man Jesus Christ through the Jewish people and die for all people.
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Exo 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
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Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Edit: Here is another link that discusses problems with the throry of human evolution.
Clicky
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SkrentyzMienty
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posted February 22, 2011 08:40 PM |
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People actually take "Noah's Ark" seriously?!  first of all, if it was real, all those animals would panic and carnivores would kill most herbivores. But that's not even the point.
hahaha
@Elodin
you're trying to make atheists look bad because of the likes of Lenin? What do one person's actions have to do with me, for instance? I don't associate myself with other atheists anyways. And calling atheism a religion is ridiculous.
I don't even need to say this, but a counterargument is that Hitler was religious. But whatever.
Religion is the worst filth created by humanity (along with humanity itself, but that's another topic). Many wars, mass slaughters and conflicts are due to religion. In medieval times atheists were burned alive by the friggin church worshippers. This is just one example.
The church does NOTHING for the world or society, rather the contrary. Drains money that is completely WASTED and helps no one. Priests and other idiots should find employment or have their income cut off from them.
Collection box flying back and forth... 
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I forgot to add how frustrating, ironic, and hypocritical Christians have always been. Take the British, Spanish, French, Portugese basta**s that felt the urge to "conquer the world" and set off in their little ships to e.g. Africa to enslave people and drain resources. Ironically, what was always the building of top piority in various slave marketing ports? A CHURCH
Ridiculous, and the worst thing is, no one ever criticises something as "divine and undisputable" as the friggin church and religion.
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markkur
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posted February 22, 2011 09:06 PM |
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There's a context to take into consideration in my opinion.
It's bixie who's posting and he's often had his discussions with elodin. As such, I'm quite convinced this thread is nothing more than an invitation to ask religious questions to anyone who may want to answer.
I took it that way too I was just making the point that I could have been wrong in responding at all if Bixie came back with specifics regarding my credentials
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In reality that's just not how osm works. An easy example of this is that all who've complained about this thread, are guilty themselves of what they're complaining about. In this sense at least.
<IMO> You speak the truth...on both counts. I hesitated to post at all because <imo> folks are too often easily agitated. Ok, I'm going back to maps and modding.
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VokialBG
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posted February 22, 2011 09:35 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 21:39, 22 Feb 2011.
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I also have another question. If God created men, why he was unknown for the rest of the humanity except part of Europe, Africa and Asia at the beginning?
Sorry, but people in all parts of the world believe in a deity. You seem to be under the misimpression that most of the world is atheistic? Quite the opposite. Only a tiny fraction of people who have ever lived have been silly enough to think the universe created itself.
As mankind spread out over the world different teachings about God became corrupted. But a remnant were faithful to God.
I mean another thing. Why there was no God like the Christian one in America, most of Africa, Most of Asia, Australia. The Indians lets say belief in some elephant with many arms and a naked woman with... many arms... and tones other gods. Clearly they have no idea about the Christian god and they never had. Soooo, why? Why was God, their creator unknown for them?
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Does this mean that the native americans were hard core sinners after they used to worship false gods and that Gods punishment to them was sending there the Western Europeans killing almost all of them?
No.
But we know atheists (Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pol, Mao, ect) have murdered over 250 million people in the past 100 years because of their hatred of religous people and other reasons. Anti-theist atheism is the most destructive religion manking has ever known (at least in recorded history.)
Ok, but still many of the native americans were killed because of the religion.
Anyway forget about them, just tell me. Why God punish anyone on Earth, since there is hell and soon or later everyone is going to day, and be judged and send there if need? Isn't sending someones soul to hell the actual punishment? And I don't mean the americans here but anyone, God punish men for such reasons as stealing or beeing very mad on someone even here on Earth. Why? There is hell for this kind of business, right?
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And why God contact only with jews at first, he created all, right? And all are his children. Why he does not talk to them and they get to know about him later? Why not even one man who is not jew never knew about him at first?
Huh? God's first contact with man was in the garden of Eden when he created man and he has remained in contact with man ever since. Try actually reading the Bible rather than anti-theist propaganda.
The Jews were to be a nation of priets to spread the knowledge of God to the world. Israel was chosen for a mission, to bless all the world. God would reveal himself in greater and greather ways and they were to express that to the world. Untimately God would manifest himself as the man Jesus Christ through the Jewish people and die for all people.
Ya, ok, but still why there was not, lets say, even one african man who is you know... worshiping the same god as the jew during the same time, or an european man, or an asian man, or whatever man?
Why the first saints, before the faith in this God spread around the world were all jews, and there was never someone from another nation. There must be at least one man on Earth who knows and worship the same god as the jews, if he was creator of all the humans, right? Why was he unknown to everyone instead of them?
Why will God even need them to make all the people to worship him, since he almighty and etc...
Why he even care if humans believe in him or not? And why is he punishing the atheist and the people believing in false god?
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Adrius
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posted February 22, 2011 10:56 PM |
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@Skryntzdude: Funny.
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What do one person's actions have to do with me, for instance?
You start off by argumenting that one shouldn't judge all atheists because of the actions of one atheist, and then you go on with talking 'bout how some christians burned atheists and how the entire religion is therefore filth.
Hypocrisy.
Ya hatin' is cloudin' ya judgment I say.
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SkrentyzMienty
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posted February 22, 2011 10:57 PM |
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God doesn't exist.
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Only a tiny fraction of people who have ever lived have been silly enough to think the universe created itself.
 . You are "silly" for believing in god and heaven&hell.
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As mankind spread out over the world different teachings about God became corrupted. But a remnant were faithful to God.
You haven't got knowledge about the chronological order of events. Humans emerged from the African continent and spread to other parts of the world long before any stupid religion was devised. So they couldn't possibly have been taught about the "christian god" because they were on different continents to Israel 2000 years ago (when christianity began). Just as well as you weren't taught their religion, because other religion's worshippers aren't native to your geographical area of residence lets say.
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I mean another thing. Why there was no God like the Christian one in America, most of Africa, Most of Asia, Australia. The Indians lets say belief in some elephant with many arms and a naked woman with... many arms... and tones other gods. Clearly they have no idea about the Christian god and they never had. Soooo, why? Why was God, their creator unknown for them?
God, or any other deity don't exist. There are, however, logical explanations of why a certiain population of people made certain religions up. For example, Quite simply:
1)Christianity - Made up by Jesus, who claimed he was god (as a result of a psychological illness possibly), and got many people (e.g. apostles) on his side. The times were hard, and the king (Herod as I remember) wasn't a really favourable ruler. Many people believed Jesus (they were highly uneducated and with no knowledge about how the world functions in those days). They believed in all the "miracles" etc. and the story Mary was "magically inseminated by god" ( last time I checked In Vitro wasn't invented until recently) etc. Out of fear, they started following Jesus' commands, and after his death started a church, and it is continued till present day.
These days, and through the centuries, it was a sociological weapon (as with most religions) to keep masses under control and free of questions (don't follow the 10 commandments and go to hell). So the fat lazy basta**s in charge of the church were always safe from lack of money, as they always exploited societies, and of course threatened that missing mass on Sunday is a mortal sin and other nonsense.
2)Buddhism - Quite a respectable religion, taking the morals taught into consideration. I really have no time to write about it.
3)Hinduism/Native American - as many wild animals were about, in old times, with humans being primitively armed, they posed a big threat. So sacrifices and other bull was performed to "calm the devils and volcanoes" and be safe. If there was a dry season, they "rain danced" and wooow, wainfall came to water their crops. Again, to keep stupid masses under control, the Shamans and other fat people in charge, amazed the crowds with their power to e.g. raise the Sun and make Night fall, through blood sacrifices and money of course.
Seen the film Apocalypto?
4)Greek - various gods and goddesses that represented morals, sin, seasons, elements, personalities, qualities etc.
5)Egyptian - allowed the Pharaoh to be worshipped and his commands followed without question by the enslaved masses, Pyramids ain't gonna build themselves are they? And same as Native American on animals etc.
6)Muslim - more similar to Christianity that most people realise.
Religion is a lot of bull in all possible forms and incarnations.
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Ok, but still many of the native americans were killed because of the religion.
Anyway forget about them, just tell me. Why God punish anyone on Earth, since there is hell and soon or later everyone is going to day, and be judged and send there if need? Isn't sending someones soul to hell the actual punishment? And I don't mean the americans here but anyone, God punish men for such reasons as stealing or beeing very mad on someone even here on Earth. Why? There is hell for this kind of business, right?
Oh there are people of all sorts slaughtered by religious fanatics.
Hell and god don't exist. People assign misfortune, natural disasters, and human evil as "divine punishment". And follow religious rules out of fear and to avoid punishment. Pathetic...
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Untimately God would manifest himself as the man Jesus Christ through the Jewish people and die for all people.
Even if this fairytale was true, one man's actions, no matter how "noble" (because rather idiotic IMO), wouldn't make the human "sinners" innocent of the filth and shi* they did during their lifetime. Unlogical even in religious terms.
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Ya, ok, but still why there was not, lets say, even one african man who is you know... worshiping the same god as the jew during the same time, or an european man, or an asian man, or whatever man?
No mobile phones and e-mails in those times, you see?
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There must be at least one man on Earth who knows and worship the same god as the jews, if he was creator of all the humans, right? Why was he unknown to everyone instead of them?
Because they made it up. Why would someone in a different part of the world believe in myths some Jews made up?
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And why is he punishing the atheist and the people believing in false god?
This one made me lol. Just seeing the whole psychological oppression of "punishment" that drives people to believe in bull like god is frustratingly humorous.
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You start off by argumenting that one shouldn't judge all atheists because of the actions of one atheist, and then you go on with talking 'bout how some christians burned atheists and how the entire religion is therefore filth.
You either misinterpreted something, or bent my words just to be able to stick the term "hypocrisy" somewhere.
What I said about religion there, is a fact, and I'm sure you agree. And what makes your accusation of me being a hypocrite inapplicable, is that I don't blame all theists, say, Elodin, for what people did to eachother in old times...logical isn't it?...
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Adrius
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posted February 22, 2011 11:13 PM |
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Nah but you blame the religion, which I don't really see any reason for.
People will always find something to use to justify their deeds, religion was just the most practical one.
I actually think that Elodin has done well to prove that christianity itself is not responsible for any of the things that have been done in its name. "Evil-doers" simply corrupt its meaning to suit their own agenda, and by doing so they are not following the teachings of christ and ergo: they are not christian.
At its core, most religions have very nice messages. People can be fricking bas****, but that doesn't mean the religion they're following is bad or anything.
Kinda like depressed teenagers doing shootouts at schools and everyone is like "HOLY **** he listened to Black Metal and played Half Life! BAN IT"
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Doomforge
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posted February 22, 2011 11:23 PM |
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I forgot to add how frustrating, ironic, and hypocritical Christians have always been. Take the British, Spanish, French, Portugese basta**s that felt the urge to "conquer the world" and set off in their little ships to e.g. Africa to enslave people and drain resources. Ironically, what was always the building of top piority in various slave marketing ports? A CHURCH
Ridiculous, and the worst thing is, no one ever criticises something as "divine and undisputable" as the friggin church and religion.
In general, I dislike disputing about religion, but since this argument is - in general - bad, or even very bad - let me make an exception for you.
Since I like you.
If we met on the street and you were wearing green pants - and I said "in the name of red panters, I thereby call you a heathen and call a holy crusade to exterminate you green panted vermins" - then proceeding to rape you and kill you, in no particular order - would you:
a) Blame the green pants
b) Blame the red pants
c) Blame yourself
d) Blame me
for what happened?
Right now you're blaming religion - a useless scapegoat - for murders. It's like blaming pants.
It's logically the most pointless things to do.
PEOPLE do this. Not some sort of hoax text teachings they have just taken "too" seriously.
Stop blaming the scapegoat - tools, knives, pants, religion, the weather. Blame the rapists, the killers, the crusaders, the PEOPLE.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Elodin
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posted February 22, 2011 11:35 PM |
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I mean another thing. Why there was no God like the Christian one in America, most of Africa, Most of Asia, Australia. The Indians lets say belief in some elephant with many arms and a naked woman with... many arms... and tones other gods. Clearly they have no idea about the Christian god and they never had. Soooo, why? Why was God, their creator unknown for them?
I already said teachings about God became corrupted over by some people but that God had a remnant of people who still knew basicly who he is and followed him.
Not everyone wants to know the truth, which is evident by reading the threads on this board. A person who does not want truth will be fed with all the delusion he can eat.
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Ya, ok, but still why there was not, lets say, even one african man who is you know... worshiping the same god as the jew during the same time, or an european man, or an asian man, or whatever man?
And you know this for a fact because.....
I'll point out that Job was not a Hebrew yet he knew the same God Moses did. So your claims are false.
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Why the first saints, before the faith in this God spread around the world were all jews, and there was never someone from another nation. There must be at least one man on Earth who knows and worship the same god as the jews, if he was creator of all the humans, right? Why was he unknown to everyone instead of them?
Sorry, but the Bible calls all believers saints. Get your facts straight please.
Oh, Luke, who wrote the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts was a Gentile and he traveled all over with the Apostle Paul. Hummmmm it seems your claims are not looking so good.
There in fact were Gentile Proselites who worshipped "the Jewish God" who did not live in Israel. Oh my, things look worse and worse for you.
http://freefactfinder.com/definition/Proselites.html
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Why will God even need them to make all the people to worship him, since he almighty and etc...
He is not going to make you worship him. Feel free to go to hell if that is your desire.
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God doesn't exist.
You are a very religious atheist.
You are making a statement of faith for you have no proof that God does not exist. I can point to personal experiences that show me God exists. I can point to the existence of the universe and the laws of thermodynamics making it impossible that the universe is either eternal or self-creating out of abosute nothing as evidence that God exists.
Theism is rational. Atheism is irrational. Atheism is more of a religion that theism is because atheism depends totally on faith.
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You haven't got knowledge about the chronological order of events. Humans emerged from the African continent and spread to other parts of the world long before any stupid religion was devised. So they couldn't possibly have been taught about the "christian god" because they were on different continents to Israel 2000 years ago (when christianity began). Just as well as you weren't taught their religion, because other religion's worshippers aren't native to your geographical area of residence lets say.
Errrrr. All people originated from one location. The original parents knew of the One God.
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God, or any other deity don't exist. There are, however, logical explanations of why a certiain population of people made certain religions up. For example, Quite simply:
You are making lots of Dawkinite statements of faith with no evidence at all for your delusinal dogma.
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Ok, but still many of the native americans were killed because of the religion.
Christianity teaches one to love, do good to, and pray for even one's enemy. Christianity teaches that murderers go to hell. So whoever told you that Christianity has killed is a liar.
Anti-theists have nothing to attack Christianity with but lies.
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Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
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1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
On the other hand, atheits have murdered far more people than all other religion in the world combined for all of recorded history. There has to be a reason for that.
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted February 23, 2011 12:00 AM |
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Since I like you.
Vice versa You are one of the few people that express their opinion in a calm way, don't flame me too much, and for the fact you don't know the Bible off by heart alone.
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In general, I dislike disputing about religion, but since this argument is - in general - bad, or even very bad - let me make an exception for you.
THAT WAS NO ARGUMENT, IT WAS AN OBSERVATION.
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If we met on the street and you were wearing green pants - and I said "in the name of red panters, I thereby call you a heathen and call a holy crusade to exterminate you green panted vermins" - then proceeding to rape you and kill you, in no particular order - would you:
a) Blame the green pants
b) Blame the red pants
c) Blame yourself
d) Blame me
for what happened?
Yes, yes, przyklad ze spodniami zrozumiany, and yes of course, I blame the pa~ you.
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Right now you're blaming religion - a useless scapegoat - for murders. It's like blaming pants.
It's logically the most pointless things to do.
PEOPLE do this. Not some sort of hoax text teachings they have just taken "too" seriously.
Stop blaming the scapegoat - tools, knives, pants, religion, the weather. Blame the rapists, the killers, the crusaders, the PEOPLE.
OK, I WAS NOT blaming religion for murders, just pointing out how FALSE the morals it teaches are IN HUMAN HANDS. Understand me now? I simply wanted to point out what filth HUMANS are, and they follow religion to artificially raise their feeling of their own personal value, and fool themselves that they are something more that stupid animals.
I KNOW PEOPLE DO THIS, and the analogy with the weapons is very true, you have to admit, however, that murderers wouldn't pose such a big threat WITHOUT weapons, this is what religion is - a SOCIOLOGICAL WEAPON TO CONTROL PEOPLE. Of course, humans are humans and would do filth withougn religion, but religion having been made up, is easily USED AGAINST PEOPLE by yes, other people, I don't deny. But you cannot say religion isn't harmful at all.
It is, after all, created by people, so it is quite logical they will use their own weapon to exploit others and place themselves in a good position.
But anyways, I went off my opinion now
@Doomforge
you misinterpreted me slightly, I judge religion and people separately:
HUMANS - are beings naturally stripped of morals, that even though are following the law etc. for the society to function, are at heart, just brutal animals that put their own benefit as top priority and virtually don't care for others (most, not everyone)
RELIGION - a "law" devised by HUMANS, to keep other humans under control, by threatening them with going to hell and other bull, under the disguise of morals, good values etc (which DO exist in it, just I, you, and even Elodin realises that most puny little humans won't follow anyways).
Religion (like socialism) in itself, is good, and a law aimed at everyone being equal, and mutually respected/secure.
...we all know how BOTH of those ideas turned out in hands of HUMANS.
Just because religion teaches good values etc. doesn't make it more believable in terms of god etc.
and your comparison of weapon and murderer, well, their evil is not mutually-exclusive, and even further, religion doesn't grow on trees, it IS MADE by humans...think about it.
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He is not going to make you worship him. Feel free to go to hell if that is your desire.
hahaahahahaha, the Vatican and other institutions sure know how to place themselves in a good financial and social position by threatening poor simple people with the imaginary "hell"
Have you been to church last Sunday Elodin? Because you burn in hell if you miss that too  
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted February 23, 2011 12:03 AM |
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He is not going to make you worship him. Feel free to go to hell if that is your desire.
Free will kicks ass doesn't it.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted February 23, 2011 12:09 AM |
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He is not going to make you worship him. Feel free to go to hell if that is your desire.
Free will kicks ass doesn't it.
 yess, and so many tempting options religion gives you...
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Anti-theists have nothing to attack Christianity with but lies.
Christians have nothing to attack the truth, wisdom and its lack with, but with a 2000 year old fantasy book.
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Errrrr. All people originated from one location. The original parents knew of the One God.
The "original parents" were Neanderthals that couldn't speak!
...oh, you believe in the story of Adam and Eve? xD May "the god be with you" then
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You are making a statement of faith for you have no proof that God does not exist.
You have no proof god does exist. And I don't need to disprove anything never proven anyways. That belief is simply explained by fear of death. Evidence to how unperfect human psychology is.
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Theism is rational. Atheism is irrational. Atheism is more of a religion that theism is because atheism depends totally on faith.
quite the contrary  Theism depends totally on faith in some fantasy book composed by random Jews that lived 2000 years ago. So in truth, theism is even worse than faith, because you have faith in those people's faith - very reliable and logical indeed.
Atheism is depending on science, logic, and is quite different for every atheist, I cannot speak for them all.
And just think it all started with a 14 year old girl that got pregnant with Joseph, and fearing persecution made up a story about having a child of god...  good for her I guess, she fooled the whole of Israel and even implemented to the poor boy (Jesus) that he is god since he was born and he believed it too! What a psychic horror
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 23, 2011 12:41 PM |
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Of course humans made religion. However, another good example would be the road codex. If you see a driver going 200km/h on a road limited to 40km/h, is it because codex sucks, or is it because the driver deliberately chose to ignore the law?
many people bring up crusades as the point against Christianity. A valid one, but the whole idea of religion - this particular - is NOT to kill. If crusaders followed Christianity, there would be no crusades. The ironic part is that the "religion" part, understood as the rules and teachings - are blameless here, since they are directly against what most Christians did wrong. They are not even neutral, like pants.
The problem with religion - along with everything else that can be used to justify our actions - is that it's too easily twisted to suit one's opinions. We don't need to look far - see Elodin. He has a shotgun at home and is ready to kill a trespasser. When asked about it, he will give you a Biblical quote that in his eyes makes it just and morally ok - in mine doesn't. Religion is too "free" to interpret, meaning, some people may actually decide their interpretation is right and is a valid excuse for doing bad things. If we however threw those interpretation to the garbage bin, the core of all religions - which teaches "don't kill" "don't steal" is GOOD.
Well, I think I'm done discussing religion, two posts per year is about the max I can handle
Cheers folks.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted February 23, 2011 01:09 PM |
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Let me sum up the rest of the argument for everybody. Cause it is the same we've had a billion times, and will have a billion more. Though the following seems to be only on this particular site.
'Christian side' - My interpretation is the only right one, though I will actually never say how I can prove that, will just put down these endless bible quotes here..that seem to support my position, even though various other different sects use those same ones..to support their version is right...oh and all non-believers are either Athiest murderers and will lie about us..or heathens that want to try to discredit us.
'Atheist side' - Since you can't prove anything I won't believe you. I mean, hey I can't exactly prove emotion exist either..but that is different!!!eleventy!!! You've killed million in your name...
'Christian side' - Hey Atheist have killed more!
'Atheist side' - No people have killed more, but it is your religions fault whoever claimed to be of a religion killed somebody!
'Christian Side' - Liar! Only atheist can kill!!Eleventy!
'Atheist Side' - No only religion kills!!!Eleventy!!
'Neutral side' - They are so much alike...
'Christian/Atheist side!" - We Are NOTHING alike!
There, the whole argument pretty much, change a few verses, the tune, and play it again.
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Message received.
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