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baklava
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posted May 04, 2011 08:58 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 21:00, 04 May 2011.
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What would the Soviets have done there unchecked?
Taliban laws, best of.
The Soviet Union sucked, sure. But not this much. Especially in the 70s and 80s.
You guys really need to get your head out of all the Cold War **** already. It's ok. You won. There are no commies on the brink of nuking the bejesus out of you anymore. Well, except for North Korea. And China, but I don't think they'd want to destroy their own future property just like that, so you're safe.
See how you were smart enough to deduct what would've happened with Iran had you not jumped in, but whenever the Soviets are involved, you get this awkward brainwash moment, instantly and helplessly picturing Russians as baby-murdering cannibals.
You've got to fight that. Once you shake that mental blockade off, who knows what'll be next.
Maybe you even start playing some actual football.
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Fauch
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posted May 04, 2011 09:52 PM |
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HOWEVER I must say I didn't like the concept of cheering in the streets that took place afterwards, found it quite distasteful, reminded me of something they (the enemy) would do,
Oddly enough, I had the same feeling. For me it evoked media depictions of Arabs and muslims in the middle east cheering and firing their guns in the air when the towers fell.
I was thinking about it. wouldn't it be, for most people, actually the same psychological process than when, for example, your country wins the soccer world cup?
of course, people don't die during a soccer world cup (normally) but : your country won a battle, you identify yourself to your country, and you feel like YOU actually won that battle.
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shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 04, 2011 11:41 PM |
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Edited by shyranis at 00:12, 05 May 2011.
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Well for starters, Israel would've been annihilated and the Palestinians would've reclaimed their land, minus the debt they owed to the liberating nation(s).
If the U.S. had never messed in the middle east, Iran would've probably had a burgeoning democracy that would've been the envy of the Sunnis and the Arab Spring would've happened much faster with much less bloodshed.
It's also possible that if the U.S. hadn't meddled in the middle east, the Soviets would've had a much stronger influence there. Say what you want about the U.S. being a smug, arrogant, imperialist power. What would the Soviets have done there unchecked?
If the US didn't pick up the Israeli mantle, the Soviets probably would have. If only because helping Israel means having better control of certain key areas (being so close to the Suez Canal and all). Iran probably would have been invaded and instead of the Shah, have a communist government installed. The Soviets would likely have included several Middle Eastern nations in the Warsaw Pact. When the Union crumbles due to its bad economy, the area would explode as the countries throw off the oppressor nation then collectively go "now what"? Largely, the area would have been mostly the same. The game is the same, only some of the player are changed. Only instead of having the Russia today with Chechens committing bombings inside the country on a weekly basis you'd probably have daily terror as the people involved generally would have no other means of fighting back against the superpower next door to them.
That's just the scenario I'd see happening at least.
Edit:
Also Football = Soccer
The word Soccer was a play on the abbreviation of Association (for the Football Association).
For the longest time even in the US it was at least known as Soccer Football before they dropped the football part entirely.
American/Canadian Football = Modified Rugby.
North American Football was actually imported by the British originally as Rugby football.
Between the two, Canadian Football takes a more impressive athlete to play because the fields are slightly larger. Touchdowns are more difficult. And we actually have had multiple American teams too. The Grey Cup is also the oldest Football trophy in North America, more than 120 years old. Twice the age of the Superbowl.
The NFL has fo far, kept Canadian Teams locked out. (Not for lack of trying).
Anyway yes, as I was saying. Worldwide football is the "Real" Football. However, that doesn't make North American Football any less relevant of a sport.
(Disclaimer: All sports are boring to watch on TV anyway. But they can be fun if you're actually there.)
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Elodin
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posted May 05, 2011 12:00 AM |
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Speaking of which, Elodin, does killing an unarmed man - in front of his daughter - when you're a squad of "elite", "professional" special forces qualify as murder in your book?
No, bin Laden was the murderer. The Seals are brave American heroes who risked their lives to stop the mass murderer.
The girl's mother and father are the ones who raised her in terrorism. And Mommy dearest rushed the Seals who only shot her in the leg. She could have been wearing a suicide vest. Ben Laden appeared to go for a gun and was blown away. I doubt that is the first kill that she has seen.
Quote:
It also came after a revised description of the circumstances of bin Laden's death. After initially saying the terrorist was armed or even firing, the White House said Tuesday that bin Laden was unarmed. Carney had said bin Laden was resisting, but without offering details. The information — from officials speaking anonymously to discuss the sensitive operation — that he was seen appearing to reach for a weapon adds context for the SEALS' action.
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shyranis
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posted May 05, 2011 01:03 AM |
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Edited by shyranis at 01:05, 05 May 2011.
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Interesting.
Osama on a family trip.
Nobody in conservative garb.
Just together in front of a pink car.
He's the scrawny kid second from the right.
This picture was taken in Sweden in 1971.
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Jabanoss
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posted May 05, 2011 01:06 AM |
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Since I'm an Osama expert, I can tell you that he's the second guy from the right.
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Salamandre
Admirable
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Wog refugee
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posted May 05, 2011 01:26 AM |
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You Euros kill me sometimes. Bunch of whiny, sobby, complaining, unemployed cretins who can't give the U.S. credit for anything. I'd call you armchair quarterbacks but you bozos don't know about real football.
Yada-Yada. Going on a pure cowboy attitude and being proud of his big dick weapon is surely an attitude you won't find in the old Europe for sure. People here care about consequences. Another 11th of sept will surely come, but not here obviously. The vengeance calls the vengeance, always.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 05, 2011 01:33 AM |
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People here care about consequences.
Is that why France banned the burka?
Oops.
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Elodin
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posted May 05, 2011 02:54 AM |
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Yada-Yada. Going on a pure cowboy attitude and being proud of his big dick weapon is surely an attitude you won't find in the old Europe for sure.
Yeah, its not like anybody in Europe ever tried to take over the world or anything. 
Course I seem to remember recently the US wanted to sit out Libia after initially clearing the air and anti-aircraft batteries. And the combined might of NATO minus the US said they could not keep a no-fly zone without US involvement.
We vowed to get Bin Laden. Boom! Gotten. Not forgotten.
Don't worry, America will keep on getting the job done!
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Fauch
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posted May 05, 2011 03:14 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 03:18, 05 May 2011.
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No, bin Laden was the murderer. The Seals are brave American heroes who risked their lives to stop the mass murderer.
well, I don't think it's such a bad way to see things. I think even the Dalai lama isn't 100% against murder. sometimes there is just no better option. of course, in the current case, we can't know.
Quote:
The girl's mother and father are the ones who raised her in terrorism. And Mommy dearest rushed the Seals who only shot her in the leg. She could have been wearing a suicide vest. Ben Laden appeared to go for a gun and was blown away. I doubt that is the first kill that she has seen.
you were there?
well, if osama's daughter had already seen blood being shed, I doubt it was acts of terror commanded by her father, I at least see him have a bit of a sense of family.
about that picture, well, heard that hitler too haven't always been a monster. I doubt it is something you are born with. I think salamandre's link talked about events in 1982.
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Is that why France banned the burka?
ah, yeah, seems french people are becoming really cautious. I mean, they seem to despise everything that looks like a stranger to them. if they could live between pure frenches only, isolated by a wall from the rest of the world, that would be perfect for them. unfortunately, they have yet to realise it isn't going to happen.
oh, and I remember that the justification for the burkas was like that gangsters could use them to hide their face. 
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Aculias
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posted May 05, 2011 03:15 AM |
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This is war.
There is always casualties & in the most screwed up ways.
Yea it does suck that that any child have to see their parent killed.
It happens more often then you think.
War sucks but it happens to Americans, it happens everywhere.
Ladin just happens to be a known CELEBRITY now, just like he said he would be when he dies.
Ladin is a wanted man & #1 at that in the world.
Everyone knows & his daughter should of known that he is a wanted man.
Everyone knows that when he is found, he most likely will not make it.
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Salamandre
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posted May 05, 2011 03:21 AM |
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Is that why France banned the burka?
Trying to find a cheap argument? How is related banning public provocation by wearing specific clothes with the whole mess USA caused in the middle west? We talk here about civilians killed, intrusion in foreign lands, human rights not respected, illegal invasions, governmental constant lies, unconditional support of murderer behavior of a certain state in the area. Burka is an internal problem in France, all problems USA is handling with are external. Causing whole countries angry and hate, then being surprised they retaliate in the only manner they can, this is being naive or excessive arrogant.
About Obama having the balls: well, this argument was brought also under Bush, he "had" the balls to invade Iraq. What we talk here, invading an undefended country or killing an unharmed Bin Laden? This is having the balls? The balls would be when something about China or Korea is done, but this won't happen, too strong for the cowboys.
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Fauch
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posted May 05, 2011 03:21 AM |
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well, at least they did it more cleanly than with kadhafi. they could have missed him and killed his daughter instead...
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shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 05, 2011 03:24 AM |
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Ladin is a wanted man & #11 at that in the world.
Fixed =D
But yes, as tragic as war is, it's not going to go away. Ever.
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Salamandre
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posted May 05, 2011 03:39 AM |
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ah, yeah, seems french people are becoming really cautious. I mean, they seem to despise everything that looks like a stranger to them. if they could live between pure frenches only, isolated by a wall from the rest of the world, that would be perfect for them. unfortunately, they have yet to realise it isn't going to happen.
Fauch, I don't agree. I think the early concept of the "most famous country of the human rights" must evolve and adapt to the whole world actual movement. So far, France opened its doors to the biggest massive immigration phenomenon one can see, and gave them aids and rights they could not find anywhere else. The countenance limit was reached at some point. The exceptional health care and social facilities France propose can't handle with unlimited immigration. If they went to USA, they would be burglars today, with the deficient health care and social aids they can barely give, after investing every penny in military.
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Aculias
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posted May 05, 2011 04:55 AM |
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That is just a simple answer from you Salamandre about having balls.
Bush had the balls easily because of a vendetta when Bush Sr was president, as well as greed with Oil.
You make it like Obama took part of the Seals operation.
We all knew Osama was a wanted man, & when found, there may be casualties.
Obama wanted to make this as quick & swift as it can be.
He can not control what happens in that mansion, he can only wait.
So yea Obama had the balls to take down a #1 wanted man when he had the whereabouts.
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baklava
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posted May 05, 2011 05:11 AM |
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Edited by baklava at 05:16, 05 May 2011.
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No, bin Laden was the murderer. The Seals are brave American heroes who risked their lives to stop the mass murderer.
I didn't question whether bin Laden was a murderer, and that is entirely irrelevant from a Christian point of view. Taking that into account would be pure vengeance, which not even you can claim is Christian. What I'm asking is - can you storm a guy's home with a squad of highly trained special forces, shoot him in the chest while he is unarmed and has nowhere to go, in front of his daughter, and then not call that murder?
All this assuming, for some reason, that the current version of the story is true. Which, you'll agree, is quite generous, taking into account the affair with using his wife as a human shield. Which you blindly believed as well.
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money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Aculias
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posted May 05, 2011 05:19 AM |
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Yea you can.
He is a wanted man. he should be taken dead or alive, armed or not.
It is war.
I guess a good example is pretty boy Floydd the mobster in the 30's during the depression lol.
They finally caught up with him.
He was unarmed & because of the hatred, the FBI did not give a damn & shot him in cold blood anyways.
Point is if he is a wanted man, you will take him dead or alive.
Regardless.
PLUS there is way too many speculations & two sided stories to speculate the truth.
Otherwise there will be debates & contradictions.
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Salamandre
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posted May 05, 2011 05:22 AM |
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Aculias, I am not criticizing the way was done, I guess it was the only way. I am not criticizing neither how USA is dealing with middle west area, I guess there is not other way neither. The only thing I want to point out is that all those allegations about Laden being an awful terrorist deliberately ordering to kill thousand of americains is only a point of view. From millions of people point of view he was responding to illegal operations USA does in that area since 1950. In his manner. What could he do anything else? Go in open field and challenge the first world super power?
The term of terrorism is sensible, americains got heavily wounded in their flesh on the 11th, and this event is certainly condemnable by any man. But can't say it wasn't unprovoked. When you play with fire, don't accuse it of burning.
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Aculias
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posted May 05, 2011 06:05 AM |
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Yes & I do understand both point of views.
It still does not excuse the killings of innocent people who just live their every day life & support their families.
it was an act of war in our eyes, but I do understand both sides too well....
Many dont understand that many of us Americans dont support what our president & Govt does.
it is out of our control, just like it is out of your control, being an ordinary civilian.
All in all, many has died when they had nothing to do with it.
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