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| Thread: Heroes 5.5 - Eternal Essence - Misc. Discussion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 10, 2011 03:54 PM |
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Quote:
He's revived H5 single-handedly. None of us have these sort of abilities as far as I can tell, so the least we can do as a thanks for his presence is have some trust in his sense of priorities.
Well stated.
I'm not sure what folks here at HC are understanding but the gist of things are to me;
Q has a handful of folks to assist with verious sub-issues, like threads, testing, some programming, story-telling and mapping. When it comes to the "real help centered on programming", he is working alone and because of that workload versus RL this project is presently in jeopardy.
Although, I did not fully pick up on this great opportunity right off the bat, I've been on-board for a bit now. The thing is, I can only help with maps and other small stuff. I hoped that their would be many here that would be able to help in some of the complex work but it does not seem the case.
<imo> The best thing that could happen now would be that anyone that has the skills would assist in the work now (e.g. creature/town models)and folks who cannot, will pass the word along and try to find others that can.
If I have understood correctly; this is a case of getting the core-game set-up far better first and then all modding will find a better fit/home/game-world in the end. However, I don't expect Q do do this alone, even if I am amazed at what he already has accomplished.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted July 10, 2011 05:24 PM |
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Quote:
What's your problem with waiting patiently until I can get around to implement the fully moddable EE mechanics?
The reason that only a couple of percent of the fanbase trust mods are exactly issues like this.
I'm not saying it because I'm impatient, although I understand it sounds like that. I find the enormous amount of work you have taken upon yourself unrealistic and I would already get a burnout by only thinking of doing it myself. I was only pointing out that a spare time computer hobbyist like yourself doesn't need to strive for things that commercial game developers do not even strive for like save game compatibility between two patches if it involves a lot of work. I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I want you to speed up the modding interface, I would not even have the time to play with it before roughly around christmas.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted July 10, 2011 06:56 PM |
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There is something wrong in the way many game forums work, Ubisoft's public Heroes board is a prime example for this. Lots of provocative statements as if people are fighting to get heard and see a feature they desire implemented. With devs who work in a guarded mode and are not really part of the community, and often truly do not understand what the fans desire, this is to be expected.
Cepheus got this right, we have a similar relationship here with a dev who does the coding and an active community who can work on other tasks. I am listening to you guys, and I am giving you reasons why I do this or that, that there must be clear priorities, because what I can do is not limited by skill but by the time I can afford to work on this project. This means before anything else patience. I exercise this myself daily.
Bashing is not helpful here. The project will move forward much faster and more smoothly if we work together, with benefits for all in the end. The priority for many tasks stems from technical necessities, and for others from my vision what Eternal Essence can be, a strategy game like no other.
Yes, this can present a conflict for some who have a different vision. I try to align this as best as I can, with a project this big there just has to be something in it for everyone, but what I cannot do is to align the dreams and visions of realities you have in your head. This is for you, something only you can do for yourself.
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Pliskin
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 10, 2011 07:52 PM |
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I think one thing everybody could do, whether he knows programming or not but is interesting in seeing this project succeeding is actually spreading the word about this project on other gaming boards, that are not exclusively devoted to Heroes. Seriously, yes, having threads about the game in the Heroes V section on the main Heroes community forums is one thing, but many people don't necessarily look there, because they don't expect to find such a gem after all this time that the game has been released.
I'm mostly talking about regular gaming boards where one could mention it, together with the fact that ToE actually improved HV greatly. A lot of people that loved the Heroes series were scared away by the initial release of HV vanilla. But actually informing them what EE could accomplish and showing them that the current release already fixes one of the biggest flaws of the game would bring a lot of new supporters to this mod. At worst Quantomas would get a couple of new testers, at best they can even work on some content/try to find some stuff out.
So I would suggest to make some posts/topics on the regular gaming boards (like gamefaqs, gametrailers or so) and inform the gamers.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 10, 2011 09:34 PM |
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Sounds like a great idea to me
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted July 11, 2011 04:55 PM |
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Advertising can help of course, but you should pick the right moment. Judging by downloads how many people are currently showing interest in the project?
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 11, 2011 06:36 PM |
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@mag
I wasn't thinking of advertising per se but more search. I suppose it all boils down to awareness. <imo> I doubt Q would want to this to grow much beyond HC because that could lead to communication work-overloads until some more heads are involved to handle such an event. A while back, Cepheus put EE up at AoH that should cover CH too...correct?
Additionally, I would guess even a programmer might be of marginal value if they knew nothing about the guts of this game. I can tell you from my own experience that having to ask a lot of questions is not much assistance  I recall your HoD comment, so I know you are aware of that problem. However, things read in posts like many are not stopping to double-check for clarity, etc. or even making sure they are in the correct thread.
On another note; maybe an in-house bug-tester too. How many game-makers that lead a project are running save-files trying to assist the fans? I'm guessing again but I imagine...zero.
@all
If you know of an experienced gaming programmer...pass the word
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"Do your own research"
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Pliskin
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 11, 2011 08:00 PM |
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Quote:
@mag
I wasn't thinking of advertising per se but more search. I suppose it all boils down to awareness. <imo> I doubt Q would want to this to grow much beyond HC because that could lead to communication work-overloads until some more heads are involved to handle such an event. A while back, Cepheus put EE up at AoH that should cover CH too...correct?
Additionally, I would guess even a programmer might be of marginal value if they knew nothing about the guts of this game. I can tell you from my own experience that having to ask a lot of questions is not much assistance I recall your HoD comment, so I know you are aware of that problem. However, things read in posts like many are not stopping to double-check for clarity, etc. or even making sure they are in the correct thread.
On another note; maybe an in-house bug-tester too. How many game-makers that lead a project are running save-files trying to assist the fans? I'm guessing again but I imagine...zero.
@all
If you know of an experienced gaming programmer...pass the word
You don't necessarily need a programmer, someone who can work with Maya and create some models would help as well I guess, as would more map makers considering that there are really at the moment only very few quality scenario maps for HOMV around and for many people this is even more important than a good campaign. Depending on your level of knowledge you can work independently enough to provide value for this project and I think that's what this is all about.
With regard to the right timing of posting about the mod in other boards: Well, maybe it would be a better timing to post if support for implementing his own factions/models is already done. But considering, that afaik there's not a whole lot of progress on this front so far, more people that try to figure out the mechanics wouldn't hurt either right now. If the worst case happens and the project ends with no support for implementing these new models/ textures, then I doubt that a whole lot of modding will happen in the future. So maybe the best time would be now.
Again, even if you are new to a message board and post about EE, people certainly wouldn't complain about advertising this mod, as it is pretty much a must have for heroes V with the better AI and every heroes player should be interested in this, whether he approves of the additional new content or not.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 11, 2011 08:24 PM |
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Quote:
...as it is pretty much a must have for heroes V with the better AI and every heroes player should be interested in this, whether he approves of the additional new content or not.
I cannot speak for Q and have not in my posts but I do believe that this is the way. As news of his A.I. gets around, maybe "needs" will be met. It is the longer route but hopefully it will still be timely.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 12, 2011 02:16 AM |
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Hall of Decision “Design”
In thinking about how the Quest could work in a non-linear way it occurred to me that one way would be to “weigh” events. The “event”, whether it be a mini-tiered quest, single encounter of some sort, or a necessary part of the main quest should have “value.” The value of each action could be set in some sort of scale; listing all possible event types and e.g. the number of points that each action is worth.
Up to now I’ve chiefly rested on a "Might vs. Magic" approach but I think another path is a very good idea. Right off the bat it gives more variety. This third path I’ll call "Mastery" just to call it something and it is a combination of the other pathways. However I don’t see this Hero’s quest as being some equal combination but a mastery of both, Might and Magic. A higher and more involved pathway within the HoD.
My current HoD release will be 008. I’m sure Q is busy and most likely reviewing my recent changes when he has time. But I thought that I would not wait for the update and begin discussing the Hall to this greater depth than just my usual "environments" of the Hall. Whenever you get-it please take the tour and contribute what you wish. The thing that I hope that folks would do; is to take the tour as if playing the game. Imagine what would be fun to stumble-upon or have happen along the way. Hopefully the feel of areas can trigger at least some of that sort of inspiration.
Back to my little idea. I imagine this sort of game-flow.
1. The player opts for the Hall of Decision and must decide which of three paths to take. “Might” should be heavily focused on battle and battle related items or events, “Magic” holding true to a focus the same way but regarding the Arcane-Arts instead and finally “Mastery” where both aspects of HoMM are...pushed. Might and Magic being equal in difficulty but Mastery being a serious step-up from them.
2. All players start at back of the Fountain of Light for a peek and talk-box of instruction. Pure chance & randomness can then begin by my placing a “single- one-way entrance” (to leave this starting spot) that has a “dozen linked exits” The player could start at any of those places on the map. Very difficult to get a routine down, if you’re not sure where you’ll begin.
3. Over the course of the game it would be wise to meet all Fountain requirements since these should be “heavily pointed” or of high value. Magic and Might must visit 5 and Mastery all 7.
The Seven Fountains of HoD_008 note: (some names have been changed)
1. Fire @ {260,108} (The Path s of Might & Mastery must visit)
2. Water @ {157,280} (The Paths of Magic and Mastery must visit )
3. Strength @ {211,230} (The Paths of Might and Mastery must visit)
4. Sorcery @ {154,195} (The Paths of Magic and Mastery must visit)
5. Leadership @ {45,189} (All Paths must visit)
6. Legend (or Lore) @ {41,110} (All Paths must visit)
7. The Fountain of Light @{96,40} (All Paths must visit)
Now exactly what happens at each is still to be decided but clearly they can be used right from the start to effect the 3 paths, as I have done. Now on to:
“Events“
Q has listed many in previous posts and so have I, but here’s just a quick and not all inclusive list that could include the following:
***suggested values are not determined and only used for illustration
1. Rescue = 3 pts
2. Defeat, Monster or easier A.I. Hero = 4 pts
3. Find, retrieve something and return =3 pts
4. Open passage or remove block…free people etc. =2 pts
5. Transport artifact. Your given one to take somewhere else. =3 pts
6. You have to solve a puzzle or riddle = 5 pts
7. Make a choice and not all are equal or even fair= 1 pt
8. Reach a level =3 pts
9. Learn a spell =2 pts
10. Get 1 of each resource for a purpose. =1pt
11. 4 Greater Fountains (of Might or Magic) where you must defeat a strong A.I. Hero = 7pts
12. 3 Lesser Fountains = 5pts
Anyway, there can be a lot and all have “value” and reward so many points. AND some you may know right up front, while others you will not until completed
4. So our Hero is in the Hall.
a. Has a required point level to take to the “Fountain of Light” at Start.
b. The Fountains factor heavily toward points
c. Any action adds “or removes” points.
d. The goal of each path could be called:
Might - “Win the ‘Tournament of Might‘"
Magic - “Claim the ‘Arcane Scepter‘"
Master - “Become ‘Master of the Hall‘"
Points
“Might & Magic” each need 50-points
“Mastery” needs 75-points
Since actions are what determines value and no order is necessary concerning completion, this seems to me to be the simplest way to make things non-linear. It does not matter in what order that you “do things”, just that you “do things and gain the needed points to win”… the chosen path.
One more touch could be added to this. If we know how many “parts” are displayed for X amt. of obelisks, then the puzzle map could be utilized in like fashion. e.g. Points buy a piece and when completed the “Fountain of Light” will appear at the X.
Finally the “days” it took to complete the Quest are recorded for competitive purpose.
____________
"Do your own research"
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Gibblets
Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
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posted July 12, 2011 07:16 AM |
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I'd like to formally introduce myself to the EE project. I apologize that I haven't done this sooner but HC and my computer have been having some serious compatibility issues until very recently. I'm not sure if Markkur has mentioned me to you before or passed along any of my ideas for the mod, but I'm an aspiring Map Maker/Tester with plenty of free time. I'm currently testing a heavily water based map and (at least with the previous versions of the 5.5 AI*) it seems like the AI is ill equipped to deal with it.
*I'm DLing the beta and will try it with the map again.
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted July 13, 2011 06:28 PM |
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Makes it doubly important to finish the AI end stage.  It's tough going currently, the AI end stage is probably the most advanced piece of AI ever written, and with all the extra tasks that are popping up, I probably need to do another retreat to the wizard's lab.
Regarding advertisement, I have no objections. On my part I am working on the AI end stage and hope that once we have an AI that can challenge the best veteran players without cheats, we will attract a bit of fame, which should help.
I will upload the new Hall of Decision later, so watch this space!
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted July 13, 2011 07:50 PM |
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Markkur proudly presents our preliminary final version for the Hall of Decision minigame/victory condition. We will use this to pilot the minigame, but it can be enhanced at any time.
Hall of Decision - Derelict dwarven mining operation
Markkur, I just couldn't resist to call it by its name. In my eyes it is very much a dwarven mining operation by now.
But heck, we need a starting point, and that it is, who is to say an ancient and forgotten dwarven city would work better than a mining operation.
What I was originally hoping for, was something that inspired grandness like the dwarven city in Dragon Age: Origins (I). I don't mean the entrance hall, you have mastered that perfectly, rather how the city is layed out, the bridge that leads to the arena, the connection to the tunnels, the buildings, and the wealthy section (through the gate where the palace is located) which provides a magnificent look down onto the dwarven town on a lower level. While it is not feasible in the game to go there, I found this magnificent.
If you haven't played Dragon Age, it's worth looking on the videos & artwork Bioware has and the screenshots for inspiration.
This is not completely unrelated to H5. I thought the impossible map size would give you room to play around with different tiers of a dwarven city, located on different levels.
I know, we have currently limitations in H5, and this is related to Gibblets request for ships being able to travel below a bridge. Currently, it's not feasible because the game has exactly one tile that is active for each map location, so doing the ship trick will require a more levelled approach. Something I would like to introduce as we move forward, to give maps if we desire a proper RPG environment.
But we can do something that comes close to it already right now. For example, the map maker can just leave open a part of a bridge for a ship to sail through and have the two stubs connected by a pair of portals. It looks a bit odd, but it will work perfectly as intended.
The same thing could be done in a levelled dwarven city. While it is not possible to have proper tracks below tunneling the higher tiers, a lower track could be realised as a canyon in the city. The two parts of the upper tiers can then each be linked by a pair of portals. You use the portal to get to the other part of it instead of going over a bridge. Likewise, sections of a wall can simply be made as if it had a tunnel by a linked pair of portals that allow you to pass through the wall.
This is not meant as a request to redesign the HoD map, but rather as an inspiration for the future.
Regarding the quests
As a start, I would like all of you guys to keep in mind, that the Hall of Decision is a minigame that is introduced as a means to decide the game. As such it should be playable in something between half an hour and two hours. That is not to say, it can contain much more content for the curious.
Technically, it is a race to reach five fountains. The fountain of victory is the last one, and reaching it will mean winning the game. While it is possible to add more fountains, it might be better to put not too much of a chore on the players.
What I imagine as events in the Hall of Decision are things that can happen to level the odds between different players.
- ambushs can wittle down army strengths
- lightning traps, meteor showers and others also decrease available forces
- traps can be spotted by skilled
- walking on traps will not disable these, but in general there is way to disable a trap
- portals can be reset randomly
- quakes can block passages and others become unblocked
- rewards need to be tangible
- picking up resources can trigger effects/yield reinforcements
- garrison forces allow passage if a certain fountain has been visited
This is just a first start of a long list to be added to.
I would like you guys to come up with rules like this to define the minigame.
[edit]
@Gibblets
I see what problems you had with HC. Is there something that can be done about it?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted July 13, 2011 09:25 PM |
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I have taken a look at the HOD008 map and I first want to say: great mapmaking by markkur. Good sense of space, nice use of point lights.
However I can't help but notice the following:
-the map is 320x320, bigger than most normal maps and it is supposed to be a minigame that serves as victory condition  ?
-because of the size and complexity the map will likely feel as playing a heavily scripted singleplayer scenario, this feeling doesn't relate well to the purpose of minigames/victory conditions that are normally designed to be repeated many times before getting old.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted July 13, 2011 11:57 PM |
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That's a thing we have to figure out.
That the map is 320x320 is for the random starting points for the human player. I guess it would be right to have the human player start at the position Markkur suggested, but the one-way should teleport the hero to a random location on the map. Technically, it means the player does only need to visit a part of the map, if he/she can find his/her way to the fountains.
Two hours playing time is a lot here. Remember you have no towns, resources, heroes to manage. You typically look around and then decide where to go, probably one minute in average. The gameplay should be quick, and the AI will be trimmed to be extremely fast. This makes between two and four months game time to be spend on a HoD victory.
It should also not feel scripted so much, because of the more random nature of events. Simple events as lined out above.
We can do additionally the quests Markkur suggested, simply add the proper rules:
- green fountain gives might quest on second visit
- ...
The player who triggers the Hall of Decision victory condition will also be given choices on entrance, for example:
- movement costs halved
- might damage doubled
- magic damage halved
- consumed mana points randomized
- traps visible to all
- ...
We could also factor the quest lines might/magic/mastery in here. This would make more sense as a predisposition. All in all I believe the minigame will be very flexible and offer replay value while being reasonable quick to finish.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 14, 2011 01:48 AM |
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Edited by markkur at 02:00, 14 Jul 2011.
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Markkur, I just couldn't resist to call it by its name. In my eyes it is very much a dwarven mining operation by now.
What I was originally hoping for, was something that inspired grandness like the dwarven city in Dragon Age
I wish you had said that before.
I had a grand central area on hmmm...005? No one commented on it. So I moved on a made all things small. Remember my first University? My present nod that way is more like a bathroom to it In the end,
I thought you wanted more of a "lot of things to be spreading out" not a city per-se. Many much smaller areas than grand-areas that were flowing out of my minds-eye at first
Quote:
If you haven't played Dragon Age, it's worth looking on the videos & artwork Bioware has and the screenshots for inspiration.
I can do that. I can even rework to a 009. One glaring problem though is that the Editor is too limited, Not in making a landscape, <IMO> there it Rulz but it is in the available objects to place where it absolutely fails. That is behind my map-editor dreams. e.g. I've wanted a passable bridge as well and also a footbridge to use in valleys between mountains
{quote]Likewise, sections of a wall can simply be made as if it had a tunnel by a linked pair of portals that allow you to pass through the wall.
You did see my hidden portal?
Quote:
This is not meant as a request to redesign the HoD map, but rather as an inspiration for the future.
One problem that is sort of a balance issue is the "rock" between things. I fear I am leaving too much. It would be helpful if I knew for sure the cell width (that you need for special purposes) and then, only leave what is needed. Then, I could "pull things in and have more space to creater a bigger city at center. And I have zero problem with merging areas that you like from different maps. In this instance replacing the city core/ore with the grand center of 005 can be done and should not take long. You just need to give the word...or maybe not
Quote:
Regarding the quests
Did you not like my pointing/weights idea? There is no do this do that.
Also, I have recently been thinking that the Hall is only for single-player now. Hence this last idea that I posted. I thought MP is out for the time-being?
Edit=
@ Mag. Sorry forgot. Thank you for the comments. Each map has brought interesting challenges. Some I've defeated some I've "settled" with Case-in-point. I discovered; "tis not a simple thing to have multi-levels of dwarven walls One-level-crags are not very flexible.. Hmmm, it just occurred to me; wonder if I can change their Z? After a lot of hours...still learning
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Gibblets
Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
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posted July 14, 2011 03:46 AM |
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@Quantomas Luckily a few updates were enough to solve my compatibility issues, but I appreciate your offer.
As always with Markkurs' work it is saturated with imagination which makes the map a joy to look at/play. After reading your further explanation of what you had imagined HoD to be, I believe it would be best to have made it above ground, as underground unfortunately limits how you can manipulate the terrain and therefore the scope of the map itself. The Dungeon walls that are the only real advantage of using the underground, can be replicated above ground by using the Z axis to stack Dwarven Garrison Walls and 'Zaglushka'.
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Gibblets
Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
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posted July 14, 2011 04:18 AM |
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I made a set of examples to demonstrate what the dwarven border guard walls and the 'Zaglushkas' can look like.
http://www.filedropper.com/dwarvenwalls
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted July 14, 2011 09:27 AM |
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@Markkur
No reason to change the map now, it is a good starting point. We can always work on it later if we desire, it's not that we need to produce a gold master.
Yes, I noted that some things changed a lot, and people in general here are very good at being selective about the guidelines I provide. But I try not to be too insistent to give you creative freedom.
But if we move to a final product there is a line where I will insist on things being done this way or that, to have a strong focus which is for me akin to quality.
Regarding the quests, we should follow the rule based approach layed out above. I will check out your suggestions, and expand the rule set accordingly.
The weighted points idea violates the rewards need to be tangible rule. I don't think that having the player track points is a good idea, rewards or penalties should rather manifest themselves as events. Make their army stronger, reveal a fountain or hidden passage, tune a portal to go to a location and so on. This will make for a much richer RPG feel.
@Gibblets
Currently I don't have the time to track *that* many ideas. Most of your suggestions regarding the AI will be implemented along the way, and special behaviour should better be expressed as hero classes that will be completely moddable. If you see that I fail to address an issue along the way, feel free to mention it again.
The overarching theme here is, the AI will be able to use every skill/class/spell intelligently and also the combat will be subject to the same rules to make everything one organic entity.
This is the real difference to current modding which merely added features. Once the AI can use it, it becomes a proper part of the game and effects the entire balance and how a map plays out.
@All
Don't fight with the trolls/spam bots. I hope the admins can deal with this. Another reason why we should move to our own board sometime. We have plenty of space on our servers here, but it is an issue to sort out the technology and set things up.
@Markkur
Would it be possible for you to ask an admin for moderator rights for you in this part of the forum to clean the spam posts in our threads? Maybe they will agree to it temporarily.
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Gibblets
Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
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posted July 14, 2011 10:39 AM |
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I understand that Q, I was basically brain dumping a month and a half worth of ideas I've been collecting (while HC was inaccessible to me) after I heard a little bit about this project. I did not have the mental RAM to continue storing these ideas for much longer before they became fragmented and gibberish. So I had to get them out and on display ASAP, regardless of whether they were rejected or accepted.
-Bryce
____________
If it's true that our species is alone in the Universe, then I'd have to say the Universe aimed low, and settled for very little. - George Carlin
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