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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 06, 2013 01:29 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:30, 06 Apr 2013.
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Purgatory, if you want to: being confronted with all the pain you caused, suffering it yourself and having to account for it not before god, but before those you wronged; having to earn their forgiveness in the face of your heightened awareness of what you actually did, and suffering through it yourself, begging forgiveness because you are able to feel sorry for them then, getting forgiveness thereby from those you wronged, being cleansed and becoming part of the blissful community of souls where every soul is part of a spritual network and everyone is linked with everyone else.
Even your "improved" version would have been impossible to practice since good and bad deeds are many times positional, therefore relative (think of a conservative father restricting his daughter's private life and causing her pain but believing he is doing the best for her for example) and the human psyche is much more sophisticated than a duality consisting of people belonging to hell and heaven OR some emotional payback purgatory. I mean I can understand the guys who came up with this stuff since the times were much more primitive; no literacy, extremely limited knowledge of nature, bandits running all over the place, every tribe seeing themselves as the center of humanity and the rest as barbaric heathens etc etc... Even a hundred years ago, to beat your kid was considered the standard way of educating him and considering your race superior to others was not a shameful thing. However let's face it, in today's world, it's impossible to have an intellectual contemplation or discussion about a notion as pathetic and cartoonesque as heaven and hell. If you try to achieve that you'll sink down with the ridiculousness of the concept yourself. No need to hunt down the paradoxes in some details, the thing itself is outdated and had been moved to the trash long ago.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 06, 2013 01:35 PM |
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Quote:
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Muhammad just copied heavily from Judaism and Christianity.
That's like saying Temple of The Doom copied heavily from Raiders of The Lost Ark. They are sequels sharing the same mythological pool. According to muslims, Judaism and Christianity is altered (changed over time) Islam anyway. There is a reason they are called the Abrahamic religions.
You compare religions to movies in a fracnhise... not sure I'm following. Islam was in no way a sequel, it was a supposedly new religion meant to have its own supporters and places of worship. Hardly a sequel.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 06, 2013 01:44 PM |
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That was an analogy and no, it wasn't brand new in the sense that it recognized the old prophets of the abrahamic religions as real prophets, it inherited their myths such as Adam and Eve, Noah and the flood, Abraham sacrificing a goat instead of his son, etc etc.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 06, 2013 02:00 PM |
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And the Christianity is a sequel to earlier religions and "copied heavily" from them. That's proven beyond reasonable doubt for anyone with above average historical knowledge and coherent logic. So?
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted April 06, 2013 02:04 PM |
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JJ,I conclude from your post that you are able to imagine a lot.
So I believe that even if I put myself on the other side of the subject,we can have a discussion.
If you like questions,titled by number,here they are:
1.Do you think Christianity is the only religion in the world?
If not,what other religions are you interested in(even as academic interest)?
2.Eternity-is it the core subject of discussion for you?
Can we put it aside?
3.Do you know there are other versions of Christianity than the Chatolic church?Ever heard of ortodox?
Because you don't comment on my answers,so they may seem to you irrelevant,not the kind you are interested in.
Nothing wrong with it,I also prefer to not comment on things I am not interested in.
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2013 02:09 PM |
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Even your "improved" version would have been impossible to practice since good and bad deeds are many times positional, therefore relative (think of a conservative father restricting his daughter's private life and causing her pain but believing he is doing the best for her for example)
I think you are wrong here, because it doesn't matter what, in your as a human limited SINGLE-MINDED view of the material world, you BELIEVED was true or right. Of course, after-life would heighten your awareness, so what was left would be real (not imagined) grief and pain.
So to keep with the example, Hitler believed that the Jews are human vermin, and everyone would profit if they were killed. Of course, afterlife would teach him the relevation that, no, Jews were people like everyone else: TRUTH if you want to. And based on the TRUE picture, grief, pain and suffering would become obvious as well.
Now, don't get me wrong - I don't intend to defend that "vision". It just serves to show that it would seem to be not THAT difficult for our world and the people who live in it, to find a somewhat more satisfying vision of the afterlife, with a real god - one that is WORTH to be worshipped - of course being able to come up with something ultimately satisfying.
The problem is simply that the old religions, including the Christian one, are not appealing anymore, since, as you say, we've grown out of them.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 06, 2013 02:13 PM |
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Christianity didn't copy from Judaism, it just evolved from it, same as snooker evolved from billiards. Therefore we have the Old Testament and New Testament.
Islam intetionally took elements from Judaism and Christianity hundreds of years after those religions came to be. Thus, I do not consider Islam a real religion so to speak, it's just a copycat.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2013 02:25 PM |
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Quote:
1.Do you think Christianity is the only religion in the world?
If not,what other religions are you interested in(even as academic interest)?
No. Discussion started with Seraphim asking about Christian religion, while I commented on the Christian view of Hell (he asked whether someone goes to hell who doesn't believe in god/Christ; the answer is yes, and I wanted to tell him, that it doesn't matter, since there either won't be a hell or we are screwed anyway and no matter what).
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2.Eternity-is it the core subject of discussion for you?
Can we put it aside?
Eternity is quite an important subject in, well, probably all religions and simply implies a state lasting "forever" or "out of time". "Eternal" is a word often used, like in "eternal fire", "eternal pain", "eternal life" and so on. It makes no sense to leave it out (as it makes no sense to leave "god" out when talking Christian religion), but it doesn't need to be discussed. It has a meaning, and the meaning is to be accepted. I would'n want to have a discussion that would try and establish that "eternal" doesn't actually mean "eternal", but just "for a long time" or something like that.
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3.Do you know there are other versions of Christianity than the Chatolic church?Ever heard of ortodox?
Of course. So? You don't want to tell me now that the orthodox churches are fundamentally different and everything is peachy there? No female priests allowed, right? All I know is that things are - cleverly - left more vague there, still their scripts are the Bible, although a slightly different one, I think. Still the same god.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 06, 2013 02:27 PM |
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There are a few differences between Orthodox and Catholic Christinaity but they follow the same basic principles. Orthodox consider things like purgatory, fillioque, holy family, The Pope's importance etc as heresy.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 06, 2013 02:30 PM |
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Drakon I don't think you've studied your lesson well, first of all the time length between Judaism and Christianity is more than the time length between Christianity and Islam. Islam is 7th century, Moses is considered to live somewhere between 16th and 13th century B.C. Second of all, the transfer of myths between religions can happen in two ways, they spread out orally and give birth to new traditions under different societies disguised as something new, as in most Abrahamic myth pool originates first from Sumer and after that from Babel polytheism:
OR
the new tradition deliberately constructs itself upon the old and gives it legitimate historic value. Islam's position to Judaism and Christianity is the second way.
And what on earth do you mean by real religion, they are all myths.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 06, 2013 02:36 PM |
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Yes but they're not all copied myths. Some things like the flood are common in every part of the world but that's about it. Christianity and Judaism were not copycats in the sense Islam was, that's why I never will consider Islam a real religion.
What do you mean new traditions, there's no such thing in religion in my view. it's either traditional or it isn't.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 06, 2013 02:43 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:49, 06 Apr 2013.
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What you say is incoherent and you give absolutely no valid reason to it. There is no difference in the position of Christianity to Judaism and of Islam to Christianity. So if you got nothing better to say than "it is so, cos I feel like it" I suggest visiting Volcanic Wastelands.
And new tradition means old myth under new social code.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 06, 2013 02:48 PM |
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Wrong. Christinaity introduced things like love thy neighbour, Jesus the savior of all mankind and renounced most Jewish practices. What did islam bring that was new?
Sorry but you don't own HC. I suggest you stop telling people what to do just because you feel like it.
Social code is not part of religion.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 06, 2013 02:58 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:00, 06 Apr 2013.
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Open dictionary, look up "suggest."
There are many differences (new things as you put) in the details of these three religions' theologies and rituals including Islam, I can't count them to you one by one right now, however they are a line of sequels because both of the latters recognizes its predecessors' legitimacy and the point is you can't be copying something if you're already openly inheriting it.
Quote:
Social code is not part of religion.
That is wrong on so many levels I can't imagine where to begin objecting.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 06, 2013 03:03 PM |
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Okay, supposing it's fine what islam did, it might be a valid religion...
But even so, I won't believe that God once said: "Ooh, Judaism and Christianity are not enough, I'll just go to some bloke and get him to write a new holy book!" and then made Islam. Sorry, I will not believe that. In other words, I do not consider the Quran inspried by god and for me it'a the words of a man of the 7th century who copied other religions, hardly of any value to me.
I can't say the same things about Christinaity because the Gospels and the Apostle Paul actually came up with something completely different from the Old testament and also in accordance with the Jewish prophecies of the Messiah.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 06, 2013 03:06 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:11, 06 Apr 2013.
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They are all words of man. And I'm not saying Islam or the others are fine, I am simply saying they are a group, they can be categorized under one roof and they already have been: Abrahamic.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 06, 2013 03:07 PM |
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Yes, but some of those men, in my opinion, were inspired by God. Muhammad wasn't. Of course you can say they're all invalid since we can't know for sure but that's another story.
They are Abrahamic, sure. But what I'm saying is, islam is the least credible of the three. And that's not because I was born in a Christian country. If I were born Jewish or Muslim I'd still question my own religion to see how and why it started.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 06, 2013 03:16 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:18, 06 Apr 2013.
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Dude, that's your personal faith, I don't care about that. We are talking about the historical categorization of them. To you it's like that and to a muslim Islam is the only pure and unaltered one among the three thus the most credible.
They are all Zeus to me.
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted April 06, 2013 03:16 PM |
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Quote:
in my opinion
Case closed.
You can both move on 
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 06, 2013 03:17 PM |
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I never wanted to talk about them that way, I don't care if they're Abrahamic or any other name. I just stated my opinion about it and you replied.
To me, isam is not a real religion. I said why. Case closed.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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