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tsar-ivor
Promising
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Scourge of God
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posted July 19, 2011 10:17 PM |
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I placed man in quotation marks to avoid it being mistaken for just male, when I refered to 'man' i meant the species rather then just male  , sorry for the confusion.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted July 19, 2011 10:35 PM |
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If image is not image and dust is not dust, is it possible that snake or garden are not... nah. 
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 20, 2011 04:00 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 04:05, 20 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
Of course the Bible says God is a Spirit. Add to that the fact that Genesis says male and female are in the image of God and that pretty much rules out man being made in a physical image of God. Of course I'm not surprised atheists claim it is the physical nature of man that the Bible teaches is in the image of God since most atheists tend to be fairly ignorant of the book that that they attack. Many atheists also seem to have difficulty grasping abstract concepts and understanding figures of speech. I can see how an atheist would not be able to grasp the possibility of the "dust of the earth" meaning anything other than dust blown about by the wind.
Why atheists?
Aint the problems of religion based on different interpretations Elodin?
Through all your posts Elodin you use the word "Ignorant",which means
lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
uninformed; unaware.
The interesting thing is that the same can be said about you.I dont need to explain why though.
The interesting thing about this thread,as in all threads that question or ask for answers from religion,is that people give answers out of their own Bible ,at least most of them,like you Elodin.
I think that kinda contradicts religion. When you tried to explain religion by saying "There are theistic aproaches to evolution",you never tried it to explain from the Bible. You aproached the issue by saying that there existed some writers that thought about the common ancestors,ie evolution,by including god into the evolution.
The problem with your aproach is simple,you did not reffer to the bible. The bible does say that humans are created out of dust,and are made out of the image of god. Now tell me who is right,you or the Bible?
The problem is see is that one who truly belives in the bible cannot believe in evolution as they are contradictory.They are because both claim different things for one issue.
That is when things get ugly.Religious people constantly switch between the "Irrefutability of an intelligent creator" ,the variety of the unbelivable nature and their Bible/Quran/Torah to explain things. Where did you take the liberty to dance between sources. When using sources elodin,dont take ones which contradict themselves. You end up saying that god created thsi world,evolution and everything else while never stating anything from the Bible,which in fact should be the source of why God exists. You know,it was created by people who were divinely insipred by God.
When I said religions took from one another,you cannont refute that Islam is Christianity which is Judanism under a different text book,writer and banner. All of them claim they are right while the others are wrong.
Why? Tell me why Elodin should Judanism be more right or wrong than Christianity as a belief system?
Also elodin,why are there so many christian denominations?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 20, 2011 05:09 AM |
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When you tried to explain religion by saying "There are theistic aproaches to evolution",you never tried it to explain from the Bible............The problem with your aproach is simple,you did not reffer to the bible.
Yes, I certainly did refer to the Bible when I gave my explanation of how theistic evolution is not incompatible with the Genesis account. The problem is you were too ignorant of the Bible to recognize the verses unless I specifically put them in a quote box and tell you where they are from. In fact, I could make up a verse, claim it was in the Bible and you are too lazy to look up the reference to verify it is there because you don't seem to be seeking an understanding but to be attacking what you are ignorant of. We have been discussing the Bible and what it says about creation but you have not even bothered reading what it says or you would have recognized the references.
Ok, first things first, I did not say that the scenario I put forward happened. I put it forward to show you are either just making false statements out of ignorance or lying when you say a Christian can't believe in evolution. What I put forward is basically ONE of the models theistic evolutionists put forward. I've asked you to do some research, but you seem not to have done so.
Second, here are some Bible verses I referenced in my 2 posts about the theistic evolution scenario where you said I did not try to explain from the Bible. Again, you either were deliberately lying when you said I did not refer to the Bible or you are just ignorant of the creation passages.
1)Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; .........
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
As you can see I refereed to 4 verses in my discussion. So you are either a willful liar or ignorant of the creation account that you condemn as false.
I noted the image of God in man does NOT refer to the physical nature of man as GOD IS A SPIRIT and BOTH the male and female of mankind was made in the image of God according to the text.
I also stated that dust of the earth does not necessarily mean dust blowing in the wind. If you can't see that that is your problem, not mine. The first 3 chapters of Genesis are quite poetic. Again, you seem to not have even read the text in English, much less looked at any of the Hebrew. Many Christians down through the ages have said it is more than dust and you want me to take the interpretation of an anti-theist who has an axe to grind. Not hardly.
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When I said religions took from one another,you cannont refute that Islam is Christianity which is Judanism under a different text book,writer and banner.
You seem to be quite ignorant of religion in general. Yes, I have stated that Christianity is Judaism under the New Covenant rather than th Old. The Christ came and established the New Covenant. The New Testament says Christians are spiritual Jews.
No, Islam is NOT Christianity. It has a totally different view of God and denies the deity of Jesus Christ as well as having other major differences.
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Also elodin,why are there so many christian denominations?
Because some people are more focused on following men than following Jesus Christ and listening to the Spirit of God.
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Revelation
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 20, 2011 09:43 PM |
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There are some big differences in Islam such as they do not share the view of the "holy trinity", Muhammed and Jesus etc were all MORTAL prophets et cetera.
But you can't deny that Judaism, Christianity and Islam is very closely related and share the same origins.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 20, 2011 11:39 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 23:39, 20 Jul 2011.
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I do deny that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have the same origins. Judaism and Christianity came about by direct revelation from God, Islam did not. Yes, there are certain similarities, Allah is described completely differently than the God of the Bile. I listed the differences in one of the religion threads once.
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Revelation
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 21, 2011 08:30 AM |
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Quote:
Allah is described completely differently than the God of the Bile.
Isn't it curious how sometimes a sentence with a typo seems to make so much more sense than without? 
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 21, 2011 05:03 PM |
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Quote:
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Allah is described completely differently than the God of the Bile.
Isn't it curious how sometimes a sentence with a typo seems to make so much more sense than without?
I indeed made a typo. Otherwise I'd have been referring to Richard Dawkins.
The Bible is not only divine revelation but great literature and the best selling book of all time.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted December 06, 2011 12:47 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 00:50, 06 Dec 2011.
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Continued from the "Moral Dilemmas thread.
@Noc
Firstly, you made false accusations about Christianity and then when called out on it quoted verses that talk about various Jews. You appear to be ignorant of the differences between Judaism and Christianity. Here is a hint for you. The part of the Bible that contains specifically Christian teachings is the New Testament (New Covenant.) It begins with the book of Matthew and ends with the book of Revelation.
Secondly, none of the verses you quoted say that the Jews were guilty of what you claim Christians are.
Thirdly, if you are going to go into anti-theistic Dawkinite mode you are going to need to step up your game. It was very easy to prove you wrong. A babe in Christ may not know the Scriptures well enough to do so but I have been on my spiritual journey for 37 years and have seen and proven wrong pretty much every false claim you can make about the Bible. If you are going to get inspiration from an anti-theist site odds are I've already seen and refuted everything they have to say so you'll need to come up with some original material of your own. Below are my comments on the verses you submitted.
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Who told you that Christianity says pedophilia is ok for priests/clerics? Such a person was speaking out of either pure ignorance of the matter or pure hatred of Christianity that motivated them to tell you lies.
(Numbers 31: 17-18) "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves
The verse in question certainly does not say for the Jews to have sex with the children. Merely that the children were not to be killed because they have not participated in the attack on the Jews. The pagans had conspired with a false prophet to get their women to lure Jewish men into sexual acts in a pagan ritual to a false god. All those involved were to be put to death. The children were innocent and were to be protected and become a part of the Jewish community instead of being killed or left to fend for themselves as orphans.
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The only legitimate sex according to the Bible is between a man and his wife.
And maybe with your own father?
(Genesis 19: 30-38) "Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father." That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up. The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father. The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab; he is the father of the Moabites of today. The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi; he is the father of the Ammonites of today."
No, nowhere in the text did God tell the women to sleep with their father. They came up with that idea for themselves after Sodom had just been destroyed. From the text they possibly thought the rest of the world had been destroyed. as you see them talk about preserving the family line, indicating they though no other men were alive.
What the Bible does teach is that during the time of the Law in Israel the Jews were to kill anyone who had sex with a married person (who was not their spouse) or who raped anyone. Sex when one or both people are married to someone else is called adultery. Fornication is consensual sex when neither person is married.
In the Old Covenant, the penalty for adultery was death (Deut 22:22.) Rapists were to be put to death. (Deut 22:25) Fornicators were to marry (Deut 22:28,29.)
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The Bible also clearly says God sees what is done to the defenseless and innocent and that there will be an accounting on the day of judgement.
Killing children as a burnt offering:
(Judges 11: 30-40) "And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands. And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel. And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter. And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back. And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.
And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows. And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains. And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel, That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year."
Jephthah did something according to that translation of the text that God certainly did not approve of. Nowhere in the text does it indicate God approved of his vow. In fact God specifically forbids such things. Jephthah was half-Canaanite (Judges 11:1), and so he was influenced by some tenets of the false Canaanite religion and evidently did not know the Law of Moses very well.
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Deuteronomy 12:31 (RSV) You shall not do so to the LORD your God; for every abominable thing which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
2 Kings 16:2-3 Ahaz was twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem. And he did not do what was right in the eyes of the LORD his God, as his father David had done, but he walked in the way of the kings of Israel. He even burned his son as an offering, according to the abominable practices of the nations whom the LORD drove out before the people of Israel.
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Revelation
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 07, 2011 11:04 PM |
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I wonder how many years it will take for Christianity, Islam and Judaism to go extinct?
Judaism is probably going to die off first, I predict that Israel is going to get annhiliated in the end. Christianity doesn't seem to grow a lot, and A LOT of christians aren't really loyal to their religion. Islam is growing and will probably remain for a while. The Arabic spring has turned into an islamic winter, so it doesn't seem that those countries are going for secularism any time soon.
How long did Greek and egyptian mythology last?
I think the religions of the future will start worshipping other planets or something like that. Or China will take over the world and everyone will be atheists and humanity will suddenly reach a new golden age.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 07, 2011 11:12 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 23:14, 07 Dec 2011.
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actually the contemporary religion is about worshipping money. I mean, if you think about it, there's not much difference with religions. well maybe I should say sects rather than religions, from what I understand, religions are really about improving yourself, whereas conditioning people with a system of beliefs is the goal of sects.
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Or China will take over the world and everyone will be atheists and humanity will suddenly reach a new golden age.
huh what?? 
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted December 07, 2011 11:35 PM |
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Good lord the ongoing biblical debates.
<*runs*>
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 07, 2011 11:55 PM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 00:05, 08 Dec 2011.
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In other news, Christians trust Athiests as much as they trust Rapists.
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In the University of British Columbia study, titled "Do You Believe in Atheists? Distrust is Central to Anti-Atheist Prejudice," hypothetical questions and scenarios about trust were posed to 350 American adults and 420 Canadian students, who found atheists more representative of a "criminally untrustworthy" person than Christians, Muslims, gay men, feminists or Jews, the study said. Only rapists were found to be more untrustworthy.
Also Xerox:
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Or China will take over the world and everyone will be atheists and humanity will suddenly reach a new golden age.
Actually China has many many many religious people. The only problem is that people are forced to follow religious leaders put in place by the government of China. Which is why the catholic church does not recognize the Catholic church in China, because they were not put in place by the church but the chinese government. The Chinese are good at using religion to spread their propaganda, but fortunately there are a good number of resistors worshipping illegally despite the death threats they get often.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted December 08, 2011 01:34 AM |
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Quote:
I wonder how many years it will take for Christianity, Islam and Judaism to go extinct?
Judaism is probably going to die off first, I predict that Israel is going to get annhiliated in the end. Christianity doesn't seem to grow a lot, and A LOT of christians aren't really loyal to their religion.
Christianity is here to stay. Atheism will never be anything more than a tiny religion. Atheism is in worldwide decline, by the way.
Pentecostal denominatinos of Christianity are growing by the way.
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Or China will take over the world and everyone will be atheists and humanity will suddenly reach a new golden age.
Uhhhhhh..every officially atheist nation has been a cesspool of mass murder and denial of basic human rights. There is no reason to think atheism would suddenly produce a golden age.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted December 08, 2011 02:58 AM |
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Every official Free Practice nation allows every religion to be practiced. Members are expected to tolerate those with other religions, but are by no means forced. Hence why you can even have a discussion like this.
Countries with a national religion (or lack thereof) always have problems dealing with the rights of people who believe in something other than their religion. What I don't think you realize, Elodin, is that the country you live in is not, may I repeat, not a christian country. If it was, then we would not give rights to those who are prostitutes, atheists or otherwise heathens for not believing in God's son, Christ. Their ways would only sew discord and dissent in our natural and "Correct" order, where everyone believes in and reacts in a nice, predictable way. The chaos that any belief other than that of the Christian would be dangerous because it is different. To prevent this clear and present danger, these people would be discriminated against, have rights stripped and be looked upon as criminals.
This is what our founding fathers realized and so they made a constitutional amendment that does not allow the government to establish or promote a specific religion. They were protecting the people's right to believe in what they wish, and because of that you have never had to see what living your entire life in an actual "One-Religion" country is like. Neither have I. I only know that basic rights were and are always denied to the weakest while the strongest have all the power. This is true to varying degrees in every country that favors a specific religion.
Remember, it was under the theocratic systems and under single religions (like Christianity, Judaism and Islam) that the failed systems of feudalism thrived. Did the serfs have rights? Nobles and priests were given almost unlimited power among their own people.
And don't say that my post is wrong because what I point out is a twisting of the religion being taught, because that is actually the point of this post. Throughout history Christian, Islamic and Jewish countries twist their teachings just as much as atheist countries, if not more. Atheism just says that there is not god or spiritual beings. It says that the only real things are those that you can touch with your own hands and see with your own eyes, things that you can do. It does not say, "Gas and exterminate those that believe differently from you." It also does not say, "Laws do not matter. Life does not matter (In fact, since they believe there isn't an afterlife, living in this world should be more precious to them than a believer). Rights do not matter." And most of all, it does not say that you have to shove your belief down someone else's throat! It is, in fact, rather mild in saying that those who believe in a religion have a very powerful imagination. If atheists were to follow what their professed faith (none) says, then they would have a completely open book and would have no need to argue with the Theists for having something that they don't. It would just be another personality quirk to them. They would have no reason to argue about who is right and who is wrong.
Did any part of that strike you as so evil that countries that follow atheism will be inherently corrupt?
The Christian faith has been bent and broken far worse then atheism over the years. It teaches love, understanding, wisdom, patience, guidance and forgiveness. It does not teach control or punishment (not in this world). And yet, people have declared wars with bared steel "For God and COUNTRY!" Which do you think was the actual cause of the war, The text that preaches kindness, love and forgiveness, or the king that demands more land, using the text as an excuse by bending its teachings to his benefit?
The only difference between those kings and other rulers and the Atheist leaders is that they have no holy text to manipulate. They use instead the history of religious countries to sew distension among their people and use that to discriminate against people that hold a religion. They are very good students, Atheist countries are. They're just following the examples given to them all throughout history.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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gnomes2169
Honorable
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Duke of the Glade
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posted December 08, 2011 06:02 AM |
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I wrote the above response, but for some reason it is not recorded in my post count or on the front page. Odd.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 08, 2011 06:58 AM |
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What I don't think you realize, Elodin, is that the country you live in is not, may I repeat, not a christian country. If it was, then we would not give rights to those who are prostitutes, atheists or otherwise heathens for not believing in God's son, Christ. Their ways would only sew discord and dissent in our natural and "Correct" order, where everyone believes in and reacts in a nice, predictable way. The chaos that any belief other than that of the Christian would be dangerous because it is different. To prevent this clear and present danger, these people would be discriminated against, have rights stripped and be looked upon as criminals.
Umm, prostitutes ARE discriminated against and count as criminals - what do you think where the reasons for that one come from?
Not that I would disagree with you in theory, but in practise things look somewhat different.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 08, 2011 08:37 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 08:38, 08 Dec 2011.
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Did any part of that strike you as so evil that countries that follow atheism will be inherently corrupt?
well, the fact is that religion tries to teach some important values, which isn't the case of atheism I think. religion is primarily about learning actually, learning by yourself. as soon as you have a master and disciples, there is a risk that it turns into a sect.
there isn't much difference between massacres due to religion sects and massacres due to atheism, in both case it is a clash between different ideologies.
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 08, 2011 12:20 PM |
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well, the fact is that religion tries to teach some important values, which isn't the case of atheism I think.
These values aren't religious to begin with, they are social and as such depend on the host society. An atheist may or may not share these values just like a religious person may or may not share them (of course he/she will always pretend to act by the rules of his/her religion even if he/she's doing wrong according to the very same rules but everybody can honestly believe in his hypocrisy of he wants to so no problem in this regard). The admission that the religion makes someone a better person and the lack of religion makes him worse is a complete nonsense.
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baklava
Honorable
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Mostly harmless
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posted December 08, 2011 02:10 PM |
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not a christian country. If it was, then we would not give rights to those who are prostitutes, atheists or otherwise heathens for not believing in God's son, Christ.
Didn't mean to participate in this one (again), just saw this part accidentally and though what the heck.
I think you got it wrong, mate, at least if you're thinking about Jesus' teachings.
It's not a Christian country because countries are a cold, real, coercive apparatus in nature while Christianity is inherently anarchic and a personal thing - I don't believe any country can be a Christian country, really - but not being Christian because different folks have rights? Naw man.
Unless you're talking about one of the more mainstream, less Jesus versions of Christianity, which you probably are, but it still rubs me the wrong way every time someone does.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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