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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: What went wrong in Heroes of Might and Magic III
Thread: What went wrong in Heroes of Might and Magic III This thread is 9 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted August 10, 2011 12:18 PM

My Heroes skills are a bit rusty I'm afraid. Still, I recall Necromancers on XL being banned everywhere and generally referred to as broken.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 10, 2011 12:18 PM

Quote:

@JJ:
I personally am against any rules, because I really believe there is a way to win in each situation.
That's fine, but you are pretty isolated with that opinion (even though I somwhat share it).

Make no mistake, I've played that game every day for 5 years, which means that I've had a ton offun with it - but still many aspects of the game are completely imbalanced in the sense that you could have made them work better.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 10, 2011 12:18 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 12:28, 10 Aug 2011.

Bah, a few early hit and run on his skeletons are enough to discourage him of gathering more.

Now seriously I would never play vs Necro on closed templates XL, because people made them to feel safe for at least 3-4 weeks. On those maps you can't play as you wish and necro has too much time to develop. OPEN XL, then I am in.

The best way to learn is playing the games setup you are afraid of. Until you solve the problem.
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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted August 10, 2011 04:34 PM

Quote:
It's not just "positive" flaws, you know. Heroes 3 might feel balanced for people who learn to ignore the existence of First Aid, Artillery, Mysticism, Eagle Eye, Estates (much less useful than in Heroes 2 due to abundant gold). Not to mention spells - ugh !

You make one BIG BIG mistake here. You're acting as if everything which is present in H3 is either for given campaigns or for multiplayer games. Many features are implemented for mapmakers!
There are a bunch full of maps which need Eageleye (Eternal Love campaign, maybe the best campaign ever made for H3!).
Artillery is a skill where you can create a great story around. Just take Gurnisson and 1 goblin and let him fight his way through hordes of undeads for 1 or 2 weeks.
Mysticism is a great skill on maps like the last scenario of the Dragon Slayer campaign of Armageddon's Blade, where you do not find any wells and need many spell points for resurrection your units after the fights vs the dragons.
First Aid is similar to Artillery, when it comes down to having one hero (Rion) with few army and fighting tough battles.

Of course you have just around 15-20 heroes in a multiplayer map, which will give you a good chance to win. But you still need at least 8 heroes to manage your map well. So some "footmen" are needed besides the generals (like in real wars aswell..) to win the war.

And never underestimate sacrifice...especially in maps like "Unleashing the bloodthirsty!".
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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 10, 2011 05:53 PM
Edited by B0rsuk at 17:55, 10 Aug 2011.

Angelito, I can't take that seriously. Yes, a map can be created to make the most out of a poor skill. But these skills simply are poor or very situational.

I could make a map which has a victory condition "accumulate 666 horned demons" and only give Pit Lords rather than Demon Gate dwelling. Does it mean the ability is not very awkward and overpriced ? Peasants in Heroes 2 are utterly pathetic, but I could create a map which forces player to use peasants. So what ?

I think your post is a case of Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy.
Quote:

The Texas sharpshooter fallacy is a logical fallacy in which information that has no relationship is interpreted or manipulated until it appears to have meaning. The name comes from a joke about a Texan who fires some shots at the side of a barn, then paints a target centered on the biggest cluster of hits and claims to be a sharpshooter.


If 3DO/NWC cared so much about creative people, they would create modding tools. People would be able to tweak the balance themselves.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 10, 2011 06:05 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 18:10, 10 Aug 2011.

The problem is that while a few people spite over imaginary unbalances, speech which leads to nothing,  other use their creativity and free time to give to each feature of the game an honorific place. And make players joy. Have you played latest Heroes 3 SoD maps? There are several gems lately.

Yes, eagle eye is not so important as earth or logistic. Mysticism is not Fort Knox neither.  But they are useful in several situations, specially early game.

Why not remove pikemen too because angels are stronger? Just put portal in town and remove all else.

Quote:
but I could create a map which forces player to use peasants. So what ?


Please do so. You will see how much attention and fresh ideas are required to achieve such thing. Make map winnable, right challenge and a story which fits in, not just peasant garbage.

Obviously you did not created this thread to hear others opinions, but to stick to yours. Not many agree with, as I see.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 10, 2011 06:14 PM

Yeah, I've made a map on which you will fight only with Walking Dead. Awesome creatures. Called Dawn of the (Walking) Dead, by the way.

Now, Salamandre, with that line of argumentation, we can stop all discussion of imbalances in all games, H6 among them, provided the map editor allows to create maps circumventing them in some way.

I agree with Borsuk about the fallacy.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 10, 2011 06:21 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 18:33, 10 Aug 2011.

As long as you provide original ideas about using this or that, I am interested.

Even walking dead.

With those "safe" templates, people forgot how look dwarfs, golems or walking dead. Now open that map, put players close, as they should be, and you will see how fast you lose if you let them in town.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 10, 2011 07:06 PM

Dawn of the WD is a single Player Map, obviously, that capitalizes on the fact that the, err, SOME artifact will give you WDs' for level 1 Necro. It's about a bet between Straker (whom you will play) and Thant, that Straker will take Thant's home castle with Walking Dead only. The loser will serve the winner in all eternity as a skeleton. There is a time limit as well, and Straker must not use basically everything that might be of use, but of course

- both are cheating.

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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted August 10, 2011 08:27 PM

@Borsuk
To be honest, I do not really care if you take my post seriously or not. It is like it is, if you like it or not.

It is similar to games like Diablo II, where you have tons of skills for your character. How many of them do you use? Is the game "completely unbalanced" coz of that? It is a matter of taste.

Don't expect everyone has the same taste as you have....
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 10, 2011 08:32 PM

The game is not completely imba because some hero skills are better than others.

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 10, 2011 11:09 PM

Someone mentioned WOG. I was initially interested in the mod, but my interest dropped when I noticed what a mess it is design-wise. It seems to have no high level vision, only a bunch of "wouldn't it be cool if...".

A good example is what they're doing with Mysticism. They improved it by making it regenerate a percentage of max spell points. 10%, 20%, 30% of max. That's more effective for sure, but not necessarily better. The old Mysticism is relatively good for heroes with low Knowledge - Barbarians, Knights, even Warlocks. It was an alternative to Intelligence, admittedly a poor one.

But WOG Mysticism - it's still generally inferior to Intelligence. To get the most of WOG Mysticism you need Intelligence skill, because Mysticism is now reliant on max mana pool. So it's no longer a skill especially good for superstitious folks who are not much of spellcasters.

What would I prefer instead ? Increase the static bonus. 4 basic, 8 advanced, 12 expert.

When reading WOG change lists, I get the impresion it's a mod for the same people who enjoy maps with thousands of dragons and heroes above level 50.
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pdesbois
pdesbois


Adventuring Hero
posted August 11, 2011 02:12 AM
Edited by pdesbois at 02:15, 11 Aug 2011.

I was curious about the title, as I could not possibly think what did go wrong with H3. I played my great share of H2 and was in awe with the 2 new towns at that time (necro and wiz). It was an amazing, addictive experience, and to date I remember the feeling.

Then came H3 and did improve all this even further. I do share the opinion that there are towns, creatures and heroes that have advantages over others - Castle and Dungeon among the top ones -but even these differences are not enough to:

1) make other town types weak or have nothing special to become unattractive;

2) deter the almost endless fun factor of the game;

If you add the WOG content to that (and if u r willing to learn a little of ERM, etc...) you can expand experience immensely and intensely, you can correct your perceived imbalances to your will and give more to create your own story / adventure. For instance, two skills mentioned here Necro and Learning. I basically 'switched' them (and only these two), so that my Necro would be Basic 5%, Adv 10% and Exp 15%, while Learn is 10%, 20% and 30%.

And for that I am eternally grateful to New World Computing and the WOG team - and those who on this site share their hard work and help us try do better.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 11, 2011 07:45 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 07:46, 11 Aug 2011.

B0rsuk,

If you play WoG as it is, then you didn't get the point. It is a tool for modifying everything inside to your liking, assuming you know to create your own scripts. The default options tried to be as fun as possible, but of course, overdone. It can be used to correct or change many things, from annoying monsters weekly spawn to complete new mechanics. Still I think that if such platform was available for H4-H5, history would not be same.
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PinkFlamingo
PinkFlamingo


Adventuring Hero
posted August 11, 2011 09:38 PM

Quote:
Quote:
It's not just "positive" flaws, you know. Heroes 3 might feel balanced for people who learn to ignore the existence of First Aid, Artillery, Mysticism, Eagle Eye, Estates (much less useful than in Heroes 2 due to abundant gold). Not to mention spells - ugh !

You make one BIG BIG mistake here. You're acting as if everything which is present in H3 is either for given campaigns or for multiplayer games. Many features are implemented for mapmakers!
There are a bunch full of maps which need Eageleye (Eternal Love campaign, maybe the best campaign ever made for H3!).
Artillery is a skill where you can create a great story around. Just take Gurnisson and 1 goblin and let him fight his way through hordes of undeads for 1 or 2 weeks.
Mysticism is a great skill on maps like the last scenario of the Dragon Slayer campaign of Armageddon's Blade, where you do not find any wells and need many spell points for resurrection your units after the fights vs the dragons.
First Aid is similar to Artillery, when it comes down to having one hero (Rion) with few army and fighting tough battles.

Of course you have just around 15-20 heroes in a multiplayer map, which will give you a good chance to win. But you still need at least 8 heroes to manage your map well. So some "footmen" are needed besides the generals (like in real wars aswell..) to win the war.

And never underestimate sacrifice...especially in maps like "Unleashing the bloodthirsty!".


Well, you are missing the fact that it is rather difficult and usually unappealing to dedicate a map JUST so the useless skills become more useful.  Also, Mysticism is pretty much garbage no matter what, even in Dragon Slayer.  I used that slot for Intelligence and even then I didn't use that much Spell points.  Besides Eternal Love, what other campaign/map forced you to use Eagle Eye?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 11, 2011 09:44 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 21:46, 11 Aug 2011.

If eagle eye is under-rated, that's only AI 's fault. If it fought properly, and make usage of all spells, I bet eagle eye would be a nice idea to make many maps around. In Multiplayer, I saw myself players using it very intelligently early game, when they felt I had better spells. If it can change the outcome of a single game, then it is a worth skill, only depends on players creativity and curiosity to try unusual paths. Many will just give up and complain they did not get slow/haste in guild, a few others will improvise.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 11, 2011 10:42 PM

*Sigh*
The Ai isn't using spells, just because it does build crappy heroes. The AI heroes CANNOT make use of spells correctly - they end up casting Lightning Bolt or Blind, because they do not have better spells.
STILL Eagle Eye sucks.
Why? Compare it with Wisdom.

It would be a good skill if you could learn creature abilities. H 5 and 6 are basically treating these the same, and especially H 6 would have no problem with an ability that would allow you to learn other abilities - if in H6 abilities wouldn't cost a löevel-up and so Eagly Eye would be completely over-powered.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 12, 2011 12:04 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 00:31, 12 Aug 2011.

You can "sigh" as much you want, you are still wrong. Care to do some tests? It has nothing to do with AI spells, stats or skills. But with its programming and non fluctuating spells values, regardless a specific situation.

Start with berserk, give him only that one. Isn't it one of best spells? Now pack all your troops together. Will he cast it? No. Will you revise your statement now or still in constant contradict mood?

Now why compare eagle eye with wisdom? On one side, you affirm nothing should be fixed or predicted in a map, on the other you blame the ONLY secondary skill which can outcome the bad dices roll. Ok, you will need it maybe in 1 of 100 games, but aren't the chances for a lucky strike or high morale also very low, but people still pick those skills?
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 12, 2011 12:33 AM

but how often do you get to learn new spells thank to it? you only have a chance when fighting heroes, right? unless you can learn bloodlust from ogres maybe.

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yasmiel
yasmiel


Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
posted August 12, 2011 01:58 AM

H3 was indeed a mess. But it was charming mess nonetheless.

The longer the banned skills/faction/spells list is for multi-player games, the more imbalanced the game is. And H3 tops all other heroes games in it. Discussing exotic possibilities for some of the game's skills and spells only adds to its messyness (probably not a word )

The sheer amount of content for user's single player game and creations is what kept the game on throne for the longest time though. I found myself playing H3 alot, though lately I'm more focused on H4 and H5.

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