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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Are the Heroes of Heroes IV sitting ducks?
Thread: Are the Heroes of Heroes IV sitting ducks?
Holger
Holger


Adventuring Hero
King of Silence
posted February 23, 2002 06:24 PM

Are the Heroes of Heroes IV sitting ducks?

In the upcoming Heroes IV we get the chance to develop some awsome skills for our heroes. Just to mention some: Incredible magic, increase your troops defense or attack with a 100%, etc....

But what is all this worth if your hero dies within the first one or two combat rounds? What I will show you is that heroes are wimps!

Allow me to feed you with the following info from the prerealesed Screenshots:

Hero Level : Health : Experience Points
    0         100               0
   10         190          16.000
   14         230          35.500
   36         450       1.990.600
   45         520       7.123.900

Furthermore the Attack and Defense stats of the hero is very dependent on the choice of Primary and Secondary Skills:

Primary Skill:
Combat    Defense
No skill:    10
Basic:       15
Advanced:    20
Expert:      30
Master:      40
GrandMaster: 50

Secondary Skills:
Archery/Melee Attack
No skill:      10
Basic:         15 enemy units -150% Defense
Advanced:      20 enemy units -200% Defense
Expert:        30 enemy units -300% Defense
Master:        40 enemy units -400% Defense, 1. Strike Rang
GrandMaster:   Double Strike, 1. Strike Melee

All in all we learn that the Level 45 Stronghold Hero may have Defense 50 and Health 520 (maybe a little more - he is a Barbarian:-)) which will be totally insignifícant to the L4 creatures.

Additionally we must expect that Hero development really becomes a matter of choice. With 5 Primary skills and 15 Secondary skills a fully developed hero will be Level 98!!! Of course Universities and similar will compensate this.

In normal game will you reach less than 1.000.000 ExP. From the stats shown above this indicates that your hero will be approximately level 25 - meaning: forget all about Grandmaster Magic; this will require 15 Levels all by itself (three GrandMaster levels.) And ironically enough you can imagine that if you use this much Exp. to develop Magic your Hero will have snowty surviving stats...

Not to mention that a 600 HP-damage spell live kill you immediately if you don't develop a decent Magic Resistance.

All in all maybe one should focus on developing those Nobility, Mining, Diplomacy and similar skills and just leave those Heroes out of the important battles...



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ShadowLord
ShadowLord


Promising
Famous Hero
of Dope
posted February 23, 2002 06:58 PM

I hate to admit it but yeah you're right about Heroes in HOMM IV being sissy! Just hope that 3DO will change their mind implementing those sissy crap. I actually don't want to see my hero fight coz I feel they are that vulnerable in the game. If you have a Level 1 hero and fighting let's just attacked by 1 Black Dragon. I wonder how your face look like!

Also if you have a highly developed hero and was killed on with one lightning bolt. You know what I'm sayin'?
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Heroes == Good

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darkspirit
darkspirit


Famous Hero
aka Zutus
posted February 23, 2002 07:41 PM

What you seem to be forgetting is that you won't have very big stacks of creatures anymore, and so your enemi won't have a lot of creatures either. The reason for this is that with a ciy hall you will get 1000gold/day meaning that with a fully construct town you will not even have enough money to buy the (in most cases) two level 4 creatures. (as for black dragons, you can't even recruit one a week) So your hero won't encounter lots of big stacks. that makes one problem solved. As for one magic spell to kill a hero, that won't happen too, because the damage of a spell will be determined by the level of the caster. I don't know how much damage a spell will affect per level but I don't expect it to be so that a hero of let's say level 10 will be able to kill another hero of level ten with just one spell... so two problems solved, conclusion: heroes will rock!!!
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Holger
Holger


Adventuring Hero
King of Silence
posted February 24, 2002 10:32 PM

Quote:
What you seem to be forgetting is that you won't have very big stacks of creatures anymore, and so your enemi won't have a lot of creatures either. The reason for this is that with a ciy hall you will get 1000gold/day meaning that with a fully construct town you will not even have enough money to buy the (in most cases) two level 4 creatures. (as for black dragons, you can't even recruit one a week) So your hero won't encounter lots of big stacks. that makes one problem solved.


That could be a good point - but you must be wrong. You will be facing big stacks of creatures. For one: wandering armies. In order to reach 25.000 ExP you really need to kill some creatures. Secondly: Let's take a look at the weekly production of creatures in the Academy:

19 Dwarfs: 228 Health Points, 532 Gold, do 47,5 Damage
23 Halflings: 184 Health Points, 506 Gold, do 34,5 Dam.
5 Gold Golems: 250 Health Points, 1200 Gold, do 50 Dam.
4 Nagas: 360 Health Points, 3400 Gold, do 72 Damage

In total: 1022 HP, 4638 Gold, do 204 Damage

And that is only per week - it is easily paid and the creatures even do more damage because they have better Attack values than the hero's defense skill (if he doesn't have Combat.)

I will not completely reject your argument though considering that in H4 you will lose army in almost every battle – unlike in H3.

Quote:
As for one magic spell to kill a hero, that won't happen too, because the damage of a spell will be determined by the level of the caster. I don't know how much damage a spell will affect per level but I don't expect it to be so that a hero of let's say level 10 will be able to kill another hero of level ten with just one spell... so two problems solved, conclusion: heroes will rock!!!


Again refering to screenshots you may be right that a level 10 hero will not be able to kill a level 10 hero with a spell, but if a a level 20 hero can be killed by one or two spells it surely is sad... a 3rd level Mass spell like Plague is described to deal 48 Damage per stack. How much will a direct 4th or 5th level spell deal....?

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted February 24, 2002 10:57 PM

The real problem is that if you reduce the size of the creature stacks then you also reduce the XP the Hero will gain from defeating them.

(The XP value of the creatures are somewhat reduced for level 1s, about the same for level 2, and increased for level 3-4.)

This means that Heroes will advance slower which in return means that they're more vulnerable.

Even if you try to protect your hero, it will likely be enough with one direct hit from a fairly big monster stack.

And will dead heroes gain XP for the combat? A good part in heroes 3 was that if you outpowered the enemy 10-1, then you couldn't lose the hero. However, even in this case in heroes 4 if you can't remove the foe within two rounds chances are that they'll have killed one or more of your heroes. (This doesn't apply for smaller stacks, but if you have say 100 Behemoths and attack a force of 10 Black Dragons can you really prevent the Blackies from attacking and killing your Hero???)

In heroes 3 it was this type of combat that really boosted your Heroes XP (and on really big maps it was Trees of knowledge). The above would be 3000 "easy" XP, and if your hero had resurrection (and decent combat values), you probably wouldn't lose a single troop.

And if we say heroes won't gain XP from combat, will then players be happy to get it from Learning stones, Seer's Huts, and Trees of Knowledge (and similar structures.)

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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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malkia
malkia


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 24, 2002 11:04 PM

Yes, heroes fighing in battle does not please me. Also it's rather unclear if you have one or more heroes in battle - whether the master one (I think the leader) will affect with it's attack+defense to the other heroes (or in some range)?

And even if the production is low - there is way to gather creatures - for example necromancy - skeleton is the cheapest (costs 0) and easier one to make. And as Halger pointed out (i didn't look too carefully in the screenshots) - for one week lots of HP from creatures can be produced.

So heroes level 45 looks like poor Rust Dragons and they die easily from magic. I guess not every hero will be able to make magic resistance.

Why they wanted to mix it like it was in Age of Wonders or Disicples - did NWC missed the fact that actually AOW and Disiciples cannot stack up creatures. If it was like this then heroes playing in battle make sense, but it's not. And actually that's what I like about Heroes - the way that you can build stack of creatures.

Generally that was bad idea from 3D0/nWC.

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malkia
malkia


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 24, 2002 11:10 PM

Quote:
In heroes 3 it was this type of combat that really boosted your Heroes XP (and on really big maps it was Trees of knowledge). The above would be 3000 "easy" XP, and if your hero had resurrection (and decent combat values), you probably wouldn't lose a single troop.

And if we say heroes won't gain XP from combat, will then players be happy to get it from Learning stones, Seer's Huts, and Trees of Knowledge (and similar structures.)



And now if your army is only with 5 heroes - how they are going to take the TREES OF KNOWLEDGE? Both 5 heroes will gain experience or? it cannot be divided - does not make sense - trees are always filling you up to the next level. How about then learning stones, seer huts and trees of knowledege - can all 5 heroes in this army learn something or only the master ONE? Then probably if it's going to work with the master one - I can rearange (I guess, I'm not sure) my heroes so that everyone takes place as master one and learns given knowledege. This basicaly means that at begining of game you can recruit a bunch of heroes bastards and go around near places - seer's huts, trees, stones and learn them all - and then you have 5 parallely learned heroes - which makes gameplaying duller. Imagine that you know that, but at the same time switching everyone of your heroes to be the master one is a slow process - but you have to do it - cause of the sake that you want to play at best - and you don't want to miss an oportunity. This will slow down a lot the game.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted February 24, 2002 11:22 PM

Quote:
Generally that was bad idea from 3D0/nWC.



It could have worked, but Heroes would have to level up more often to keep pace with creature stacks.

You can also compensate by offering substantial Hero improvements in Towns (and these would have to be better than the H3 ones, I made some remarks on the "buildings" thread to this effect. The increases I proposed was a bit on the low side to solve the level-up problem.)

You can also control this in part by Map locations and artifacts, and the amount of Health Hero gets at level-up. (You can offer more health at level-up, and a lower Combat bonus.)

You could also add some defences for Heroes that depend on level, say something like this:
Level X:
X% chance to block Attack. (Hero receives no damage.)
X% chance to reduce received damage by X%.

Then have a level cap of no more than level 80, otherwise these abilities become to powerful.

Right now they have Sanctuary spell, but that spell means the Hero will just watch the combat as it unfolds, and not every hero should be required to have GM Life Magic.

Having  (and keeping) an exponential requirement for level-up is not 8easily) combinable with heroes fighting in combat.

And hmmm... all of this are just quickly suggested numbers... it would take some careful playtesting to get it right.

One thing is for sure. I can't see the "Lord of War" being translated to H4.
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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malkia
malkia


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 24, 2002 11:40 PM

Another thing just came to me mind...

what about when heroes have to go to the next campaign?

Are they gonna start with experience from their previous game or not? Cause if they gonna stay - then they'll be too powerfull for wandering creatures - they'll not even need any 1st week army to get all the mines and stuff as soon as possible - which is important part of the game.

The game may end up without having any low-level creatures - just heroes + >5-6th level creatures - and also the fact that those are not in lots of amounts. It's really becoming Heroes of Might And Magic.

Development of heroes will be more likely in any japanese style turnbased rpg-game - but then again - there are no stacks of creatures there. Also the story is one and same in those game - and lots of hacks/tweaks can be made - so that your hero no matter where it's in the game is generally able to take care of monsters. I mean in the begining - you'll meet with very weak creatures, but you'll be weak too - then at the end with very strong creatures, but you'll be strong too. In Heroes4 it'll come strange - starting say your 5 map from some campaign and your hero with level 32 and bunch of archers are going to be killed with one hit. In Heroe3 even if you are 32 - you are mostly depending on your army. And then in Heroes3 it was more fun with army of 10 archers and hero level 32 to take over 15 or even 20 other archers - this was the real gameplay - and we are going to miss it.
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Holger
Holger


Adventuring Hero
King of Silence
posted February 25, 2002 12:44 PM

Quote:
And now if your army is only with 5 heroes - how they are going to take the TREES OF KNOWLEDGE? Both 5 heroes will gain experience or?


There has been released a screenshot with one window showing two heroes learning +1 Attack and one hero learning +2 Attack from a visit.

In some towns it will be possible to improve your heroes.

Academy has the University where heroes can buy basic level skills of Nobility, Scouting, Life Magic, Death Magic and Order Magic for 2000 bucks each.

Asylum has the Thieves Gauntlet improving heroes damage range with +1-2 and the Battle Academy providing 1000 ExP.

Haven has the Seminar where heroes can buy basic skills of Tactics, Combat, Life Magic, Order Magic and Nature Magic for 2000 bucks each. It also has the Abbey increasing the heroe movement with +5.

Preserve has the Sacred Grove increasing the spell points of visiting heroes with +3.

Stronghold has the Arena of Honor increasing the hit points of visiting heroes with +3. And the Wrestling Pits grants +1-2 damage range increase.

Summary: Academy and Haven has the two very interesting structures University and Seminar in which you really can achieve something. The remaining structures are a joke. +1-3 is completely useless unless the information from H3Trio is unprecise. It sounds much more likely that the structures increase e.g. your spell points with +3 per hero level!!! Then it becomes worthwile!

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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 25, 2002 12:55 PM

The key is one word: balance !!

Maybe that's why h4 release kept delayed, delayed and delayed.
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Choose what you love
and love what you choose.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted February 25, 2002 01:34 PM
Edited By: Djive on 25 Feb 2002

Quote:
Are they gonna start with experience from their previous game or not? Cause if they gonna stay - then they'll be too powerfull for wandering creatures - they'll not even need any 1st week army to get all the mines and stuff as soon as possible - which is important part of the game.


Heroes doesn't come with armies any more (or it would surprise me if they did). That means you have what the town produce, if anything. (And any gift from the Mapmaker)

Anyway, if you try to take out opposing forces of low-level monster with just your magic hero, then you're probably:
1. Lose the combat, OR
2. Run out of Spellpoints after the first fight.

Heroes can't handle high level monsters or big amounts of low level monsters for that matter. So just adjust the guards to expected hero levels.

I don't think the game will be without low-level monsters. rather, it will be long before you either get (afford) or beat high level monsters.

More often than not, you'll not rely on only one Hero. If this game is going to have any chances of working you must have several. So speaking of ONE hero defeating monsters would be wrong. You probably want 2-3 Heroes in all your armies.

Also remember that there are a lot more animations of heroes now.  There are almost surely more hero animations than creature animations.

The absence of a random map generator is probably due to this slow down of the economy. Players will have to depend a lot more on the Map makers generosity and starting 'giveaways' than in Heroes 3. These things would be very difficult to generate in a fair way at random.

The Seminary/University is too expensive too see real play. Their main function is to delay the building of the Dragon Factory and Portal of Glory dwelling. 2000 Gold is a lot per secondary skill, given that economy has been slowed down by a lot.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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carcarius
carcarius

Tavern Dweller
posted February 25, 2002 03:31 PM

I think the release version we see will be a bit more balanced.  Also remember that there are like 100 (give or take) artifacts in this game that boost your stats considerably.  Factor in that you can have up to 7 heroes in an army and you can definately build their stats quicker by fighting tougher monsters early with this many heroes.  I am not sure if each hero gets the same measure of XP or if the total XP from the battle is split between each hero after the battle, so we'll see.  

At any rate, this is a strategy game, and you can play it the same as in previous versions of heroes.  Just cast protective spells on your hero and he/she should be fine, AND keep them at a healthy distance if they are not strong enough to handle melee.

You can still win the battle if your hero gets knocked out as well.  I don't think you lose the battle if your hero falls, I think if you have troops left to fight with then you can still win.  After the battle the fallen hero must regain health poiints but will not be dead or taken prisoner, although I am not positive of this.

Think of the possiblities...

You can split your army if you have multiple heros and have your weaker army (or single hero) nab resources while your larger/stronger army checks to make sure the land is relatively safe and to scour the area for rogue monsters.  Then when you are done nabbing resources you repool your group together for additional exploring into unseen territory, you should never leave a lone hero alone unless you are prepared to retreat if the battle looks unwinnable.

Don't judge the game yet, wait and see how it turns out!
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Hynnyte
Hynnyte

Tavern Dweller
posted October 15, 2004 02:45 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 20:12, 06 Jul 2009.

Quote:
In the upcoming Heroes IV we get the chance to develop some awsome skills for our heroes. Just to mention some: Incredible magic, increase your troops defense or attack with a 100%, etc....

But what is all this worth if your hero dies within the first one or two combat rounds? What I will show you is that heroes are wimps!

Allow me to feed you with the following info from the prerealesed Screenshots:

Hero Level : Health : Experience Points
    0         100               0
   10         190          16.000
   14         230          35.500
   36         450       1.990.600
   45         520       7.123.900

Furthermore the Attack and Defense stats of the hero is very dependent on the choice of Primary and Secondary Skills:

Primary Skill:
Combat    Defense
No skill:    10
Basic:       15
Advanced:    20
Expert:      30
Master:      40
GrandMaster: 50

Secondary Skills:
Archery/Melee Attack
No skill:      10
Basic:         15 enemy units -150% Defense
Advanced:      20 enemy units -200% Defense
Expert:        30 enemy units -300% Defense
Master:        40 enemy units -400% Defense, 1. Strike Rang
GrandMaster:   Double Strike, 1. Strike Melee

All in all we learn that the Level 45 Stronghold Hero may have Defense 50 and Health 520 (maybe a little more - he is a Barbarian:-)) which will be totally insignifícant to the L4 creatures.

Additionally we must expect that Hero development really becomes a matter of choice. With 5 Primary skills and 15 Secondary skills a fully developed hero will be Level 98!!! Of course Universities and similar will compensate this.

In normal game will you reach less than 1.000.000 ExP. From the stats shown above this indicates that your hero will be approximately level 25 - meaning: forget all about Grandmaster Magic; this will require 15 Levels all by itself (three GrandMaster levels.) And ironically enough you can imagine that if you use this much Exp. to develop Magic your Hero will have snowty surviving stats...

Not to mention that a 600 HP-damage spell live kill you immediately if you don't develop a decent Magic Resistance.

All in all maybe one should focus on developing those Nobility, Mining, Diplomacy and similar skills and just leave those Heroes out of the important battles...







Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to [url=http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=6]Library Of Enlightenment[/url], to discuss Heroes 4, please go to [url=http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=17]War Room Of Axeoth[/url], to discuss Heroes 5, go to [url=http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=1]Temple Of Ashan[/url].
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