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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Armies @ start of week?
Thread: Armies @ start of week? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
Asmodean
Asmodean


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
posted June 15, 2004 10:42 PM
Edited By: Asmodean on 12 Oct 2004

Armies @ start of week?

Okay, so one of the hardest things to get used to when HOMM4 first arrived was getting my troops in dribs and drabs through the week instead of a full compliment on Day One.
Then when I went back to play HOMM3, I found it hard to get used to the Day One thing again.

What would you like to see for HOMM5?

All troops on Day One?
Dribs and drabs throughout the week?

or: Dribs and drabs throughout the week with the option of spending more to get them sooner?

Maybe when you upgrade your castle/city hall, that gives you a better beauracracy to recruit troops faster.

Or maybe it could be due to the Nobility skill, the higher the nobility, the sooner you can recruit?

What do you guys think?
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drlucifer
drlucifer


Adventuring Hero
The Surgeon of Death
posted June 15, 2004 11:09 PM

This was one of the new additions to H4 that I liked, that troops could pop up for hiring every day.  It is really useful during the first week or so and makes it possible to defend your castle if an army comes through a gate a few days after youve sent your own army to go kill a town or monster group.
I think there should be the town hall/ citadel/ whatever buyilding in the castle that increases creature growth the same way it is done in H4- troops show up more quickly.
My idea for the Nobility skill is that the hero would not necessarily be able to recruit more troops, but would cost his kingdom less money to hire them (much like the Purse of Penny Pinching artifact in H4).  But I really dont mind it the way it is.
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draco
draco


Promising
Famous Hero
posted June 16, 2004 04:39 PM

I like the way Hereos 4 is, however I didnt like not knowing when I was gonna get my dragon or whatnot, if there was a way to find out how many more days before next is fully trained it would be great.

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Lytyr
Lytyr

Tavern Dweller
posted June 21, 2004 04:09 PM

I prefer the once-a-week thing - it makes you act a little more intelligently with the units you have because you aren't getting ANY for the whole week, and if you loose them all... well, its a long time to wait if you're playing multiplayer.
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted June 23, 2004 04:04 AM

I should post here soon. as soon as i have a spare moment.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

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Duckie
Duckie

Tavern Dweller
posted June 23, 2004 01:10 PM

Well I'll be looking forward to it Svarog

anyway, I agree with lytyr, I mean, there's nothing that says you have to take all your creatures with you, can allaways leave some at the castle anyway.

it's just anoying that when you plan an attack and wants to attack your oponent, and then you can't get all your lvl 4 creatures with you and don't know when they'll get there.

granted, maybe it does make more sense that the dragons don't suddenly pop up out of nowhere exactly at day one every day of the week, but still...

it worked for homm 1-3 and it would work for homm 5 ^_^
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gerdash
gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted June 23, 2004 06:03 PM

it is realistic.

they are not popping out of anywhere.

the dragons have always been there, but some of them just become recruitable sheduled at 1st day of the week.

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igoraki
igoraki


Hired Hero
posted June 24, 2004 11:46 AM

i think that h4 way is good,if you dont like it,then you can byu all your creatures 1 day of the week and you have old system from h3,dont see problem here.
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Asmodean
Asmodean


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
posted June 29, 2004 02:36 PM

Yes - but all of you that don't like it - none of you have commented on the suggestions I made as to how armies could be recruited faster through skills or structure-building.

The best point I've heard so far is Draco's suggestion that you're told when your next dragon etc will become available. Like the taver in HOMM4, when it tells you how long before you can recruit your next hero.

The reason I liked it was not only because it was logical - but it made you rethink your tactic a bit.
When you got all you troops on day one, you KNOW when you're playing a multi-player game that you're almost guaranteed an atack on day 2 or 3, after your opponents got his full compliment of troops and makes his way to your nearest castle.

In HOMM4 it wasn't like that. You could be surprised at any time, which called for a better castle defense. Which imho was more realistic, as no self respecting general would totally strip a garrison's defense to make an assault on an enemy base.
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted June 30, 2004 03:30 AM

I think the h4 way is better.
The reason is that the h3 system, provides space for a lot tactization with the attacks, buying, money, movement etc. (the first player has advantage) All your game is ordered in periods. Well, we're not fertile women for gods sake!

i think it's more realistic and better for the gameplay as it is in h4.
but asmodean, how do you mean "to recruit faster"? if thats to put the weekly amount of creatures in the first three days for example, yeah, i think it can be helpful, although it would "periodize" the game to some extent. so thats why it should be available as a secondary skill only.


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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

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Maniak
Maniak


Adventuring Hero
posted June 30, 2004 12:31 PM

Quote:
it is realistic.

they are not popping out of anywhere.


Actually Heroes 3 style is also realistic... When you go to school and u graduate, everyone else of ur year graduates at the same time... but in the meantime, no one does...

So, we can say that creatures in homm3, reproduce themselves steadily and it takes 1 week to train them... The only thing that doesn't make sense, is that when there is a week of the wtvr, it should take effect the week after.

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gerdash
gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted June 30, 2004 01:49 PM
Edited By: gerdash on 30 Jun 2004

Quote:
When you go to school and u graduate, everyone else of ur year graduates at the same time... but in the meantime, no one does...
yes, that's more or less the way i meant it, except said more clearly.

the difference would be that i didn't think so much about training but about having some "signup day" at first day of every week.

Quote:
When you got all you troops on day one, you KNOW when you're playing a multi-player game that you're almost guaranteed an atack on day 2 or 3, after your opponents got his full compliment of troops and makes his way to your nearest castle.

In HOMM4 it wasn't like that. You could be surprised at any time, which called for a better castle defense. Which imho  was more realistic, as no self respecting general would totally strip a garrison's defense to make an assault on an enemy base.

interesting, in some games i want to attack before the opponent gets new troops. having your castle conquered at the end of the week is especially bad imho because the opponent can recruit your precious troops. other reason to try to conquer before end of week is when you have decimated the opponent army in the field and the odds are more heavily against the opponent unless he gets new recruits.

but it's true that the mid-week seems to be less dangerous. even if you can easily conquer a castle it is somewhat useless until the start of next week, and the army that guards the castle could have been useful elsewhere.

if the creature growth is periodical, you want to have your castles in your posession at day 1 and don't care so much about the rest of the week. that's imho unrealistic.

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted July 02, 2004 10:54 AM

The way in which Heroes IV administered troop recruitment was rather different to the previous versions, and therefore entails different strategies. I'm not sure if we can class either of the two systems as 'better' than one another, but I think it is possible that we let our preference be shown. Some people are going to like Heroes I - III version better, others are not. At the moment it seems as though the majority enjoy the Heroes IV method. I am actually a fan of both for different reasons.

The idea proposed by Asmodean at the beginning of the thread is rather intriguing. The system all Heroes have used is rather static. It is either that you get a certain number of units a week or a day. This has never changed from any exterior modifiers. While there are growth augmentors, they don't actually change when the units are bought.

I would tend to think that having units recruited every week is a more flexible system. With units being generated every day, there is no room for improvement, and any modifiers could do nothing except raise the numbers of units available. What I am trying to convey here is that with structures or skills, it would be possible to make the unit growth more frequent.

For example, the player begins by recruiting the units every week in the usual Heroes I - III fashion. With certain structures built, for example, something that improves all dwellings' facilities and upkeep, the growth becomes more frequent, and more of the units are available more often. After you have upgraded them a few times, they might be available once every two days.

A small flowchart can explain this system pictorially:

Start Game -> Units once per week
Upgrade 1 -> Units once every 5 days
Upgrade 2 -> Units once every 3 days
Upgrade 3 -> Units once every 2 days

I think having a system similar to this would increase the depth of play available in the game. It is rather obvious that the player will receive his troops at the end of the week. Naturally, you would devise a strategy to claim a castle on day 7. Equally, you try to prevent your own castle from being captured on that day. With this system, however, the opponent would be oblivious to when you recruit your creatures, since he cannot see your buildings.

While having them recruited once a week increases strategy as shown above, it is quite linear and predictable, and ultimately doesn't change throughout the game. Adopting such a system outlined above could be interesting for gameplay, and the recruiting of units wouldn't become so predictable.

Perhaps this idea is slightly unrealistic. I don't think so, to be honest. What is unrealistic though is having units recruited once per week without deviation. It would take a thouroughly honed empire to continue to produce creatures at exactly the same time for a year or so.

There is also the more realistic aspect which has been discussed previously. A think like the recruitment of creatures should be random, since you never know when a new batch will be ready. But Heroes is more concerned with making the game playable, even if it comes at the expense of realism on occassions. I find no problem with this.

I honestly believe this topic is overlooked when it comes to playing Heroes. It is just granted that the troops will arrive on this day, and there is nothing that will change it. Adopting my idea here, this would be different. You could try to have a more efficient castle by recruiting troops more often.

Thanks to Asmodean for creating this topic, as it is an interesting one. Hopefully some other members can try to shed light on this issue and perhaps my idea if you think it is worth discussing.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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gerdash
gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted July 02, 2004 06:33 PM

i would rather prefer creatures becoming available either continously or all at once at a specific day of the week. the 1-st day thing makes it easier too keep track of.

to make it important to own your castles all the week long, i could suggest that the new creatures arrive at the day of the week when you conquered the castle (except the first week when you just have to wait 7 days). i.e. no matter what day of the week it is, after conquering a castle you have to wait for 7 days to get new creatures. when there is the local landlord's 7 day "anniversary" party or something, some creatures offer to join the army for money and for greater glory or just because the landlord ordered them to.

but i think it may become tedious when you have to take into account the creature generation individually in each town.

and first day of the week is imho better anyway, because it it's a castle that is often conquered and it's not first day of the week recruitment, it's also tedious for the creatures to keep track of when they have to arrive at the castle. if it's global first day of week no matter what then the creatures will easily remember and will be always on time.

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Daddy
Daddy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
posted July 02, 2004 06:44 PM

I like Hydras idea.
Besides it comes along with ione of my own wishes, that the towna have more buldings to build I would like them to be bigger and with more trhings to build and buy

regards
Daddy
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Medusa
Medusa


Famous Hero
Yeah, right
posted July 02, 2004 07:54 PM

I would vote for the way HoMM4 is. In the gameplay, you get into some nasty situations, and then, if you're able to buy troops at any day, it saves you sometimes (or makes the matters worse, if you're the attacker of the town). I disliked the "wait all week" thing in HoMM3, so I vote for recruiting every day.

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gerdash
gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted July 03, 2004 04:00 PM

what puzzles me most is: why was the start of the week creature growth done in the first place? it isn't so difficult to count days, is it? jvc seems to be an idealist sort of person, surely he would have done continuous growth unless there was some reason to do it periodically.

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dajek
dajek


Known Hero
Psychedelic Knight
posted July 09, 2004 02:51 PM

I support Start of Week rather than everyday. 100 percent
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Polaris
Polaris


Promising
Known Hero
posted July 10, 2004 04:30 AM

I like the beginning of the week method better. For one thing, it makes the concept of a "week" important to the game. This is something you rarely see in video games but is pretty easy to identify with in everyday life. For instance, on the 7th day of HOMM you always prepare to get more troops. This is like how you prepare for (or dread) the start of the work week Sunday night. Some things work on an inherently periodic schedule, and therefore it is not the case that all events should be equally likely to happen at any time. All parties have knowledge of this periodic schedule and may therfore exploit it for their own purposes.

But moving away from this ethereal, idealistic reasoning and moving toward a gameplay concern: there is less opportunity for micomanagement (which is identical to less micromanagement) if there is a standard day when all troops become available. An experienced player of poker may learn to count cards giving him an advantage over those who don't. Similarly, an experienced player of HOMM will be able count days and will know exactly when that next dragon is coming out and work it into his strategy. An inexperienced player will not keep such precise tabs on his towns or will keep track of fail to notice that if he takes a half day detour he can get a dragon one day earlier at some other town or any number of things that could give him a disadvantage. Obviously the game has to have some measure of skill and while this is a perfectly valid way of discerning between good and bad players (those who are able to track their troop growth and those who aren't), I don't think it's a very "fun" way to do so. If being good requires you to track troop growth, I choose not to be good. It's up to you whether or not you agree.

As for "hurrying" growth, I have seen it in other games and don't think it's a worthwhile feature. While it does have some merits, it also has drawbacks. I won't get into those here though.

One change I think they should make though, when you first build the structure it should have more than 1 weeks worth of troops in it. This would help with the early game, and also with development of late game towns.
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barbarian
barbarian


Famous Hero
posted July 10, 2004 11:03 AM

yes hydra has a good suggestion if he does mean for the same amount of creaters per ugrade and not just sooner like it would be cool i'd like to get more quntety if i spent more money like if i pay 70000 gold overall i would get a dragon every day instead of every week that would be cool expensive yes, but cool and also would add strategy like should i mass swordsman or should i mess flying really adds an element of more strategy to the strategy game that is homm good idea hydra didn't u say that u r like the producer of ubisoft, well if u really are hope you can tell us if it will be like it soon i would like to know .
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It's optional.

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