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| Thread: Alternative Upgrade System |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 20, 2012 02:19 PM |
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I am afraid it's not really possible to introduce an alternate tier of creatures for each town. Think of it... that would pretty much require making a new game. Even for an expansion, this is extremely unlikely. It would be preferable imho, but... reality. Yeah.
So, I think best we can hope for is an alternative set of upgrades. Which, as we know from previous title, almost always comes with an obvious choice - either new unit is too powerful, or too weak. I think even alternate tiers would be easier to balance than alternative upgrades.
I'm all for alternatives, however. What H6 lacks imho is content. We need more - more arties, more towns, more creatures, more maps. The only thing we need LESS is the retarded DRM/protection methods. And bugs, obviously  So, even if they are imbalanced when introduced, they should be added.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 20, 2012 06:45 PM |
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Quote:
I am afraid it's not really possible to introduce an alternate tier of creatures for each town. Think of it... that would pretty much require making a new game. Even for an expansion, this is extremely unlikely. It would be preferable imho, but... reality. Yeah.
It's not obvious at all to me what's so impossible about it.
A 4-4-2 scheme would involve making 3 new creatures per town (15 total, equal to two new factions' worth of creatures), 3 new buildings per town, and a few additional lines of code regarding building restrictions.
The hardest part would be the balancing, which you say would not even be as difficult as balancing alternate upgrades.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think there's any chance in hell that we'll see something like this introduced, but not because it's too infeasible.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 20, 2012 10:52 PM |
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I agree, alternative upgrades would mean both more creatures and trickier balancing than introducing an extra creature on each tier. I'm not sure which I would prefer, but I think the latter is much more likely to happen. But then again, they did introduce alt upgrades to all creatures with TotE, so never say never.
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What will happen now?
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted February 29, 2012 11:03 PM |
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Edited by krs at 00:35, 01 Mar 2012.
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Here is an example of what I have in mind. Haven would be able to build either sentinels->praetorians OR swordsmen->crusaders with the first being defensively oriented and the second covering the offensive role yet both are melee and rather similar otherwise. Archers could have an alternative upgrade with marksmen having the line of attack and let's say longbowmen having a scattershot ability much like the basic H5 archer. Again, similar units but different usage not to mention how we need extra anti-turtling tactics. The rider's alternative upgrade could have a ride-by-attack much like the brisk raiders' wheeling attack as compensation for not being able to pass through units like sun crusaders can.
I will pre-order the expansion that promises EXACTLY this... tomorrow!
I have read all the replies and frankly I see little resemblance to OP's proposal. (Or I misunderstood the idea but I like my misunderstanding so much )
So: this is what I understood:
- It is NOT every creature gets an alternative upgrade (which would be forced => boring).
- It is NOT 4-4-2 or 5-5-2. It is a 4-3-1 with 1,2 maybe 3 alt upgrades.
- It is not the same for every faction. EG inferno can have a 4-3-2(devils) and stronghold a (3-4(T-birds)-1).
It IS a much much simpler solution.
- ONE alternate core Unit! This will fill the same role as the existing but with a twist. You will be playing and meeting core units most of the fights so here it will have the greater impact in diversity.
- ONE alternate upgrade for a core.
- ONE alternate upgrade for an Elite.
- There will be more units (both in towns and on maps).
- There will be more strategy. (You can play a faction in more than one way).
- Town trees will get a much needed face lift.
To add my own quick ideas.
Add diversity to 4-3-1:
- Inferno could have an alternate for champion in devils.
- Stronghold could have an alternate elite in Thunderbirds.
The need for those extra creatures is there. (There will not be more than 8 factions)
There will be 3 more creatures/faction with same role and almost the same stats to balance.
Balance would not be much harder. With this extra creatures you could actually address some weaknesses one faction has over another. Lets say Sanctuary = Stronghold Sanctuary = Haven but Haven > Stronghold on the basis of Daemonic lineage. One alternate that will be stronger only against Haven will actually address this balance. While it "forces" you to pick that creature against Haven in the rest you will play the other alternate. Imo this is acceptable to always pick one upgrade.
Again on balance. With the given example for archer alternate I see no danger of over-picking one over another.
In theory it can satisfy both H4 style lovers with alternate creatures and H5 lovers with alternate upgrades while also satisfying the ones that had problems with that "all or nothing" system.
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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 29, 2012 11:59 PM |
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So you guys are proposing there should be one or two alternate creatures per faction only? well ... that would certainly be ... unique?
Think about it - imagine H5 (TotE) for a second where you are playing... let's say Haven, and archer gets alternate upgrade but not the rest of them - nope sorry griffin yer out of luck  . And because of what - poor developers can't balance it?
And let's say they realy can't - one selection becomes obious one way or the other. At the end of it - if you only have one alternate creature to choose from ... you'll choose the better option. Immagine Inferno gets another core creature - let's say it's Horned Demon. Now i already see ppl are gonna ditch pupies and go for demon (if pupies remain as they are).
Now im all for alternative upgrades don't get me wrong - and to me logical move to implement them would be quite simple - make one upgrade for might and other for magic - there's already skills to back this up (and heroes) - so i imagine it would be much easier to balance - if you play magic hero - make him magic army, and if you play might, might upgrades are the logical choice - simple. They can balance Might vs. Magic from there - should be easier to do so than now when they are balancing creatures, heroes, etc. seperatly + we would have alt. upgrades 
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 01, 2012 12:34 AM |
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Quote:
So you guys are proposing there should be one or two alternate creatures per faction only? well ... that would certainly be ... unique?
It is more like 3-4 instead of all-over 7 for me.
Quote:
Think about it - imagine H5 (TotE) for a second where you are playing... let's say Haven, and archer gets alternate upgrade but not the rest of them - nope sorry griffin yer out of luck . And because of what - poor developers can't balance it?
I do not see any problems in griffins not getting an alt upgrade.
It makes more sense to have less not because of "harder to balance" reasons but because of the "impossibility" to have meaningful and distinct enough upgrades for every single unit in the game (see H5's results).
With an alternative to a core unit you can bring more diverse creatures into the game. Perfect example is sentinels->praetorians OR swordsmen->crusaders. One is defensive one is offensive. With and alt upgrade you will have a slight variation of a defensive creature. And even if you make the alt completely different you still have to use the basic, not upgraded form that will every game be the same. This problem is solved with alt creatures.
A 4-3-1 with 2-3 alt upgrades will satisfy more people and will take considerably less effort to implement and balance than a full 7 alt upgrades.
As for give magic heroes magic units... It does not have to be black or white. the current system has enough variety and with some more creatures it will be ok. the magic heroes have the spells to do the damage, I am more concerned about might heroes stuck with magic units.
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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 01, 2012 01:18 AM |
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well ok i got your point but having only 3-4 creatures having alternatives would feel simply .... strange - atleast to me. I know H5 had problems but alternative upgrades were one of best features imo.
Now i can definitley see how this system could work - but imo should be just expanded "pool" of core, elite, and (maybe)champion creatures, (from which you would choose 3 core, 3 elite and one champion dwelling) across the board for all races. Wouldn't it be wierd, if for eg. Inferno has more Elite creature options than Stronghold? and inferno has 2 champions to choose from? ... maybe it's just me, but idk if this would work
Now regarding maght vs magic - in H6 they implemented this "main hero" system - in my alt upgrade proposal - it would work like... if you select magic hero, build him magic army - you can select secondary heroes magic aswell if you're worried - but point is you dont "need" to select all magic upgrades - you could go for mix (or maybe switch between them for diferent heroes - you know ... like in H5 ) - just be aware that your hero must also have mixed skills then, so all creatures benefit something. - ofc. the jack of all trades is the king of none yes?
And as i see it, it is already better to build your hero "pure" than mix.
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einomida
Known Hero
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posted March 01, 2012 01:45 AM |
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Edited by einomida at 01:45, 01 Mar 2012.
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Actually instead of alt upgrades I liked someone's idea of one extra creature per tier. It works well with the new system in my opinion and would open up various strategies without the extensive balancing needed for alt upgrades. This would also allow different options to feel unique instead of simply an adjusted "flavor" that is between alt upgrades.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 01, 2012 10:04 AM |
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Wouldn't it be wierd, if for eg. Inferno has more Elite creature options than Stronghold? and inferno has 2 champions to choose from? ... maybe it's just me, but idk if this would work
Well in Heroes 3's stronghold NWC made it so that you could go behemoths day 2-3. You did not need to build cyclops or ogres for that. (And NWC saw that it was good).
That addresses one of the plagues in Heroes 6: The lack of identity/diversity of towns. The building tree (type, build order, costs) are the same for every single faction. That's plain boring.
Heroes 5 overcomplicated things and on top of that they had a horrible build interface where you could hardly tell which building you've build already, which building you have no resources for etc. And parts of that problems are present in H6 also.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 01, 2012 10:07 AM |
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Heroes 5 overcomplicated things and on top of that they had a horrible build interface where you could hardly tell which building you've build already, which building you have no resources for etc. And parts of that problems are present in H6 also.
Actually I disagree with that. I think the concept of Town Levels was pretty good in that it put a frame in which you could build (effectively cutting you off from having tier 7 before 2nd week, which I think was fine), but still have you the liberty to largely design your own building path.
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What will happen now?
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 01, 2012 10:38 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Heroes 5 overcomplicated things and on top of that they had a horrible build interface where you could hardly tell which building you've build already, which building you have no resources for etc. And parts of that problems are present in H6 also.
Actually I disagree with that. I think the concept of Town Levels was pretty good in that it put a frame in which you could build (effectively cutting you off from having tier 7 before 2nd week, which I think was fine), but still have you the liberty to largely design your own building path.
I liked too that you had to build tier 7 week 2. And the whole prerequisites system as a whole was good. The only thing that spoiled was the horrible layout and interface due to too much town level rigorousness. What I mean with that, is that instead of a more clear money/fortifications/creatures/everything else they just clumped them up together.
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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 01, 2012 11:04 AM |
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Heroes 5 overcomplicated things and on top of that they had a horrible build interface where you could hardly tell which building you've build already, which building you have no resources for etc. And parts of that problems are present in H6 also.
Well i don't think it was so complicated at all - it's only my opinion - but i think Heroes series would actualy benefit in a bit more complexity - specialy now in H6. (maybe it's coz I'm used to games like Victoria or EU, but whatever  )
I fully agree with you however, that build order should be diferent from faction to factoin - actualy more than that even - diferent if you want to rush, or play defensively (regarding map size and enemy type even)- and i think H6 has a potential to achive this with core, elite, champion system. But for this to work i don't think adding alt creatures would be enough - it would have to be something like H5 level system or even H3 prerequisite building system.
Now when we talk alt. creatures I think it should work somewhat like this (i took your idea - which btw has potential and add my taught for this idea):
Every faction has 5 core, 4(or 3) elite and 2 (or 1) champion dwellings, out of which player can choose to build 3 core, 2 elite and one champion building - mix whatever you like (in your example it would mean you can actualy choose to have both - swordsman and pretorian, if you wish so) - now this would give you much more army building options
However there's a problem - balance - when one option clearly becomes more of a "cookie cutter"
On the other hand we have alt upgrades (H5 style), which was great in theory, but pretty much suffered the said problem (of overpicked creatures). Now this could be resolved if either option has clear usage. That's why i think Might and magic upgrades would work (blood & tears would not, coz secondary heroes don't have this option) - and the way i see it - alt upgrades would actualy improve faction balance if done properly this way, and it would be 2 kills with one stone
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 01, 2012 02:03 PM |
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Every faction has 5 core, 5(or 4) elite and 2 (or 1) champion dwellings, out of which player can choose to build 3 core, 3 elite and one champion building - mix whatever you like (in your example it would mean you can actualy choose to have both - swordsman and pretorian, if you wish so)
First all credits go to elvin. It is "my" idea only if I misunderstood him and even then its only a spin-off.
This is why I think more than one alternate creature for a tear will not work or it will feel too forced:
Let's take Haven. Right now they have Healer / archer / mele defender as core. Perfect synergy! What alternate options could there be? Archers were there since heroes 1. Healers are a good addition and in current Heroes 6 you need them there. So the right of the bat alternate would be a mele damage dealer ass opposed to defender. So for the other 2 we are left with the alternate upgrade versions.
I would really like to see someone imagine a 5'th core for haven, that would be picked at least 30% of the games. I'm blank there.
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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 01, 2012 03:12 PM |
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ok well sorry about that - didn't pay close attention to whom original credit goes to
5-th core for haven you say?
hmmm .... well how about Inquisitor? offensive spellcaster type that maybe give buffs to your army? He would be specialy useful when (if) healing gets nerfed. or how about something completley unique ... like Balista (I know what you're thinking now but it's not that silly as it may sound) - a special archer unit that deals bonus dmg to walls but moves slow and lacks AoE of marksan
so then you would have your core creatures options:
-sister
-pretorian
-marksman
-balista or Inquisitor
-swordsman
now you can combine any 3 of them and put them in your army - will you go: sister, swordsman, balista ? or how about balista, marksman, pretorian even ? - my idea is that noone should just hard replace existing creatures - but once you build dwelling you're "locked" - (maybe when you conquer second town you can change)- this is to prevent you from selecting best "creeping" units and then change them to best "end game" units.
If balance is a question diferent creatures can have diferent growth rates - so what if Inquisitor can't heal - his growth rate is much larger than sister and can deal dmg like a boss
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 01, 2012 03:40 PM |
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I cannot imagine a castle without archers/pikeman(or the like)/griffins/knights/angels. I wouldn't like this composition changed even if it could come from alternates. That is why I do not see your spell-caster as a core. As for balista... it just does not fulfill the role the archers have.
It is my preference and I cannot help it. Call me limited but if I were in charge, I would have fired the man that envisioned Radiant Glory in the current Haven lineup or the names for the rest of the creatures. Celestial for angels? Common! You kidding me? If you want to appeal to other creeds other than Christianity go for localizations and give us our heroes back. But this should go into another thread .
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted March 02, 2012 11:17 PM |
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I like the idea of every tier getting an additional creature to choose from. It would be very easy to implement, too, with the current (admittedly poor) interface.
I like alternate creature better than alternate upgrade. I would say, if we wanted to add another creature model to the existing units, the best route to take would be second upgrade, not alternative.
You know what I mean. You have your archer, which becomes a marksman. Then, later in the game, you discover an artifact, or complete a quest, or capture a dwelling, or build your Tower, or whatever you want to call it - which unlocks the second upgrade for all of your units, allowing you to upgrade your marksmen to "Elite Marksmen", or something. The upgrade costs more, naturally, but it adds something to the existing functionality of your units, and gives you something new to look at when you're in combat.
I think alternate creatures and secondary upgrades would be the ideal situation.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 03, 2012 10:41 AM |
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Quote:
I like the idea of every tier getting an additional creature to choose from. It would be very easy to implement, too, with the current (admittedly poor) interface.
I like alternate creature better than alternate upgrade. I would say, if we wanted to add another creature model to the existing units, the best route to take would be second upgrade, not alternative.
You know what I mean. You have your archer, which becomes a marksman. Then, later in the game, you discover an artifact, or complete a quest, or capture a dwelling, or build your Tower, or whatever you want to call it - which unlocks the second upgrade for all of your units, allowing you to upgrade your marksmen to "Elite Marksmen", or something. The upgrade costs more, naturally, but it adds something to the existing functionality of your units, and gives you something new to look at when you're in combat.
I think alternate creatures and secondary upgrades would be the ideal situation.
Ugh, no thanx for upgrade features (be that skills or creatures) that rely on something as random as an artifact. Remember Pendant of Mastery? Probably the single worst idea ever, and completely imbalanced.
I'm all for a more flexible unit upgrade system á la WOG, where creatures earned experience, and then gradually gained new abilities and stats. I think that made for a very dynamic range in creature power which was great (even low-level creatures became powerful in late game when they reached very high levels) and it made something meaningful out of battling neutrals even in late game when Hero was high level.
To give an example on how that could look with, say, Cerberi:
LEVEL 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
DAM 5-8 5-8 5-8 5-9 5-9 5-9 5-10 5-10 5-10 5-11
MIGHT 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 5 5
MAGIC 7 7 7 7 8 8 8 8 9 9
HEALTH 22 22 24 24 26 26 28 28 30 30
INT 35 35 35 40 40 40 40 45 45 45
SPEED 6 6 6 6 7 7 7 7 8 8
LUCK 9 9 9 10 10 10 11 11 11 12
MORALE 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
ABIL Voracious ->
|+Unlimited Retaliations ->
|+Eye Of Gluttony ->
|+No Retaliation
Obviously this is just an example, but I think that part worked really well in WOG.
One could still have upgraded dwellings in town, obviously, these would just have the creature start at a higher level (level 3, 4 or 5 for instance).
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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 03, 2012 01:45 PM |
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Edited by G0b1in at 13:46, 03 Mar 2012.
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Creatures gaining veterancy is great idea indeed  - imo would give heroes fresh feel to it - however I would use that instead of regular upgrade system - or maybe hero could distribute Xp between himself and the creatures - possibilities are endless.
However it would mean new gameplay mechanic I highly doubt could be implemented in H6 ... now if H7 ever comes along ... I would certainly be happy to see such a feature in it
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 03, 2012 02:15 PM |
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how is it supposed to work with upgrades? you also lose something if you remove the possibility to upgrade creatures.
how do you merge similar creatures who do not have the same amount of experience?
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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 03, 2012 02:58 PM |
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hmm now that are certainly things to consider - my guess would be it could be made like - you don't level creatures individualy - but instead when one type of creature achived enough xp - either directley or by asigning xp from your hero to it - it would upgrade as a whole - in town lvl 2 creatures would emerge.
Example - Cerebrii must kill 100 enemies to level up - now this works for all cerebrii across all heroes - when this type of creature lvl's up, all existing cerebrii are changed to lvl 2, and you build lvl 2 cerebrii from this point forward
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