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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: Alternative Upgrade System
Thread: Alternative Upgrade System This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV
alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted March 03, 2012 04:08 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 16:11, 03 Mar 2012.

Quote:
how is it supposed to work with upgrades? you also lose something if you remove the possibility to upgrade creatures.

how do you merge similar creatures who do not have the same amount of experience?

No, this is actually very conveniently handled in this system, and removes the issue of having, say, a stack of Archers wanting to join your army but not having room for them because you have upgraded them to Marksmen.

The way this was handled in WOG was to have XP levels for creatures. Say for simplicityt that you need 1000 XP for level 1, 2000 for level 2, etc. The level of the stack is then calculated by stack XP divided by number of creatures.

Imagine then I have a stack of 100 Archers at level 5, that means stack has 500.000 XP, with an average on 5000 XP on each (i.e. level 5). If I then merge another 50 Archers at level 2 with this stack, what does that mean? The 50 Archers at level 2 bring in another 50 x 2000 XP = 100.000 XP, so stack total is now 600.000 XP, but with 150 creatures that means average of 4000 XP each, i.e. stack is now level 4. So yes, creatures can be "downgraded" when you merge a low-XP stack with a high-XP stack.

Upgrading buildings in town will work easily; for instance normal Archer dwelling give you base ("level 0") Archers. Upgrading the dwelling means your Archers start at, say, level 4, i.e. start with 4000 XP each. If you want to, you can say the Archers gain status of Marksmen once they hit level 4 ("upgraded"), or you can simply consider them all as "Archers".

Creatures earned XP from battles just like Hero did. So if your Hero faught a battle that was worth 50.000 XP, the Hero gained this XP, but the same amount was also distributed over all your stacks. There was also a feature to equip Artifacts directly on creatures which leveled them up which was awesome.

This was how it was implemented in WOG, and I always thought it was one of, if not the best feature of that installment.
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Mithrandir
Mithrandir


Hired Hero
posted March 03, 2012 11:32 PM
Edited by Mithrandir at 23:34, 03 Mar 2012.

Just for the sake of nitpicking, in WoG the upgraded and unupgraded creatures counted like different units, so for instance pikemen had their XP's and levels and abilities and you could choose to upgrade them to halberdiers with different levels and abilities (not sure how/if the experience was transferred) and in some cases this wasn't an easy choice (among these cases were e.g. the already mentioned pikemen or centaurs, if my memory serves right).
But there's no reason it shouldn't work as Alci has suggested, it's a good idea IMO.

And if we're not talking unit XP, then the unit choice seems more appealing than the standard alternate upgrades to me.
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English ain't my native language, sorry for any mistakes.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted March 04, 2012 08:31 AM
Edited by alcibiades at 08:32, 04 Mar 2012.

Thanx for correcting me, I thought it was the other way (seemed more sensible) but admittedly it's been ages since I played WOG.
Quote:
And if we're not talking unit XP, then the unit choice seems more appealing than the standard alternate upgrades to me.

Not if creatures can earn Blood and Tear points also.
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 04, 2012 02:08 PM

I'm not sure how that would work. obviously the succubi, for example, would most likely gain blood points, while the sister would most likely gain tear points.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted March 04, 2012 02:41 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 14:44, 04 Mar 2012.

Quote:
I'm not sure how that would work. obviously the succubi, for example, would most likely gain blood points, while the sister would most likely gain tear points.

Neither am I, but it's a fun thought to play with. Obviously, you could have some actions like attacking trigger Blood points or defending trigger Tear points, and/or you could have a system where the Blood/Tear points earned by the hero can be ditributed among the units. The tricky part as you mention would be that many units have a very dominating function as either Blood or Tears. That is not necessarily a problem, but one would have to think it into the system, so that for instance you won't end in a lock where one unit always upgrades in the same way.

Alternatively, the influence should go the other way around, so you can choose to upgrade your Sisters after either a Tears path (will strengthen their Healing) or a Blood path (will strengthen their Pacification). I think for most units you would actually be able to find a viable two-sidedness of their nature, or it could be added into their upgrading scheme.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 04, 2012 03:47 PM

I don't like the idea of blood and tears being associated with alternate upgrades because it feels like it would force upgraded creatures to be either:

A) Defensive. Tear.

or

B) Offensive. Blood.

Atleast the Hero's alignment shouldn't influence alternate upgrades. It would be boring if a Blood hero only had blood creatures.

I think the original alternate upgrade system was fine.
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body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted March 04, 2012 10:18 PM

Quote:
I don't like the idea of blood and tears being associated with alternate upgrades because it feels like it would force upgraded creatures to be either:

A) Defensive. Tear.

or

B) Offensive. Blood.

Well, that's a matter of taste I guess. I think only the cases where the two upgrades were exactly that in Heroes 5 were succesfull. The cases where both creature were, say, offensive, seemed pointless, as it pretty much wound down to one being better than the other then.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 04, 2012 10:48 PM
Edited by xerox at 22:51, 04 Mar 2012.

I feel that it's lazy and uncreative to force every single creature to either be offensive or defensive.

Also if every upgrade was either a) Defensive or b) Offensive, then I don't see the reason to overcomplicate things and spend time and resources to give every single creature a Blood/Tear system. And how would it work? If you want your unupgraded Harpies to become a Tear creature, would you just spam the Defend command with them all the time?

Maybe you don't like how the Mizu-Kami plays, well then you upgrade into a Mist Spirit instead and get an alternate way to play it.

I also think alternate upgrades should be more about counters andadapting to the situation. Does your opponent use a lot of Dark or Light Magic? Use the Blazing Glory to counter it.Otherwise, you could use the alternate Burning Glories that cause a ring of fire when they teleport to enemies and a ring of healing when they teleport back.


____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted March 05, 2012 12:02 AM

Quote:
And how would it work? If you want your unupgraded Harpies to become a Tear creature, would you just spam the Defend command with them all the time?

Yes, that is also the problem I see, the alternative upgrade system must not force you to play in one unnatural/boring way in order to achieve the upgrade, that would not help game-play, that would reduce it. This would call for the most natural thing being the upgrading proces itself being tied in with plain ressources, i.e. you build either the tear upgrade structure (costs dragon tear crystal) or the blood ugprade structure (costs dragon blood gems) and then upgrade the creature accordingly [yes, I want a separate structure, so that you would need to build both if you want access to both upgrades - which would be possible].

That being said, there could be a relation between upgrade and tear/blood system. Like using a special ability with a Tear upgrade could earn your Hero Tear points, and vice versa for a Blood upgrade. There could be a synergy between Hero class and creature upgrade, so that a Blood hero grants a bost to Blood creature skill effectivity. Yes, that would mean that a Blood hero would probably favor Blood upgrades, but his ressources might not allow it, plus a complete Blood-army might have problems (like no healing). Tricky part would be obviously balancing here, but that is the case with any alt-upgrade system.
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krs
krs


Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2012 12:15 AM

The whole blood / tears system would make so much sense if creature abilities would contribute to the gaining of tears / blood also. Sisters use healing => +1 tear. Because you do max 2 heals / turn => max 2 tears.

Right now it cannot work because you need all 7 of a faction and you would have close to no control on what you use, BUT!....

...Like I have said before I myself would prefer to see implemented a mix of one extra core + 1,2 alt upgrades / faction. Some of the alternates will give tears some blood, some none => more control on what you will get.  Again, not all creatures would have an upgrade or replacement so you will have 2-3 creatures that give tears and 2-3 creatures that give blood. With the possibility to go all blood for one faction or all tears.

I will start a new post only to conceptualize this whole thing for all factions. I would really really like to see something like this implemented.

ps. I hate creatures getting XP . It's not heroes imo. (save it for heroes 7 )

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G0b1in
G0b1in


Adventuring Hero
posted March 05, 2012 12:39 AM

Well i think alternate upgrades should be implemented in a way to improve game balance. Now i know this statement seems like it's in contradiction to logic, and indeed - if upgrades are linked to tears/blood system that is hard to achive - as one upgrade might prevail. (for eg Inferno gets healing unit via alt upgrade - example: healing breeder - that unit would be a "must", which is bad). Also think about secondary heroes which don't have tears/blood path - which upgrades should they get? (I know, I know - who uses them for anything besides architect and mine sabotage? - but still).
That however does not make it impossible - Tears/blood has (at least in my mind) great potential which is not used in the fullest. To implement tears/blood creatures, they should be gone with this primary/secondary hero thing (which i realy wish they would).

But there is an alternative! How about linking upgrades (instead of tears and blood) to might vs magic. Simply put: might heroes would prefer might upgrades and magic would prefer magic ones (they can be offensive, defensive or mixed, it does not matter). That would give new options, like might Necro for eg (which is viable but weaker choice currently). If done this way, each upgrade has it's own function (or reason). Why would that be more balanced you might ask? well my logic behind this is: when choosing to play might or magic hero (as primary hero), one looks the whole picture - not just hero abilities, or just army, or tears/blood skills, but all together to decide. if done correctly it could balance might vs magic.

What sparked this idea in me was new stats (which currently have no "higher purpose") - im talking about ofc. magical attack and magical defense  

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Falconian
Falconian


Adventuring Hero
posted March 05, 2012 12:57 AM

Seeing as H6's focus is making the game siplified I doubt there will be any creature experience or something, maybe they will add alt upgrades but honestly, we need factions before that!
We really need Sylvan, Dungeon and Academy, it gets boring to play against the same factions every time...

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