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| Thread: Virginian women breathe a sigh of relief. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Shyranis
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posted February 26, 2012 01:59 PM |
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I don't think it's so much needing an ultrasound as it is that the government is ordering it
Exactly right. That should be between a patient and their doctor and based on their recommendation. It shouldn't be forced on the doctors and patients by people who are unqualified to even make that decision. You shouldn't want a career politician performing surgery on you, why would you want one making you take unnecessary medical tests?
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kookastar
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posted February 26, 2012 09:40 PM |
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Why is the government ordering medical tests? Invasive or not, the government shouldn't really be ordering ANY medical tests for ANYONE, no matter what the reasoning*,
Ok but: "The bill now mandates external ultrasound before an abortion".
The government is still ordering a medical test. I do get that if it is just to determine gestational age then it probably doesn't matter but I still think it's the media irresponsibly making an internal ultrasound sound like something dirty.
That linked article is so loaded with emotive language that it makes me sick. Who are these people, and why are they trying to make women feel bad about a standard medical procedure? I'm not going to go on about this, but there are WAY more things that the American government is doing that is worth protesting about.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted February 26, 2012 11:10 PM |
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So my only real beefs with the bill is that doctors have to waste hospital resources performing ultrasounds they may not deem necessary, raising medical costs, and in cases of rape and incest.
Ultrasound laws connected with abortions are intended to give the woman actual scientific information to counter the liberal lies that the unborn baby is "merely a clump of cells." Seeing the actual ultrasound or hearing a description of it shows the woman the unborn baby is indeed a human life in the early stages of the human life cycle.
Yeah, the cost of an ultrasound is added to the cost of murdering the baby.
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What gets me is that people like Elodin are diametrically opposed to "Obamacare" for the reason that government allegedly has no business making medical decisions for patients, interfering with the doctor patient relationship, telling patients what kind of insurance they have to buy, or telling doctors what kinds of procedures to perform, etc., but they have no problem with the government passing laws that require people to have extra medical tests before they have abortions.
The powers of the federal government are enumerated in the Constitution, much to the dismay of liberals. The federal government has no power to require a citizen to buy an insurance policy required by a loony Marxist president.
The states have the power to regulate medical procedures. Certain states say if you want an abortion, ok, you can murder your baby. But there are certain medical procedures that have to be followed. States also have laws that limit the legal right to kill unborn babies to certain ages and impose other regulations on abortion.
What gets the goat of certain liberals is actual accurate scientific information has to be presented to the woman seeking to kill her baby instead of misleading liberal propaganda being served to her.
What gets me is certain liberals say a woman should have the legal right to kill her unborn baby for any reason at all but should not have the right to circumcise her baby for religious or cultural reasons. 
Oh, and Corribus, I certainly do disapprove of the "lifestyle choice" of ending the life of an unborn baby unless it is necessary for the mother's own preservation of life. I am "pro-life", not "pro-abortion."
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baklava
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posted February 27, 2012 02:07 AM |
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The inherent value of the life of a fetus, independent from its parents, in various stages of pregnancy could make for an alright discussion actually. But people might feel your personal credibility about the issue to be slightly dubious considering you have no problem with parents denying life-saving medical treatment for children who are already born.
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Corribus
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The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted February 27, 2012 02:52 AM |
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@Elodin
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The states have the power to regulate medical procedures.
I see. So then if the state legislature of Texas, or whoever, passed a law that said, based on the documented connection between prostate screening and lower incidence of prostate cancer, all men over the age of 30 in Texas are required to have a prostate exam* every two years or face a $400 fine, then you'd have no problem with that?
*And you know what that entails.
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted February 27, 2012 03:23 AM |
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I'm not going to go on about this, but there are WAY more things that the American government is doing that is worth protesting about.
I've written about many of those in the past. Both parties really only seem to band together to pass the worst of the worst laws, but that's off-topic.
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GunFred
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posted February 27, 2012 12:19 PM |
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Sorry if this is not entirely on topic but maybe before discussing wether killing very early stages of human life that is the result of an unforgivable act by men of evil is wrong or right.
Maybe we should take our discussions towards the many millions of intelligent animals that get horribly slaughtered for food every day and consider options that are better for our morality and health(both ours and the planets). Hopefully we can soon eat lab grown meat as we eat real meat today. And before we care for the unborn maybe we should think about the living who are suffering their entire lives. Lives the feel, experience, evolve and set their mark in the world. Another point, how should the world be, fewer people who live happy lives or more people who live in misery, quality or quantity. I vote for quality and consider myself really be pro life because of that.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted February 27, 2012 12:21 PM |
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intelligent animals
How'd you figure that? (id est what makes you say that?)
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GunFred
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Sexy Manticore
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posted February 27, 2012 12:33 PM |
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Edited by GunFred at 12:41, 27 Feb 2012.
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intelligent animals
How'd you figure that? (id est what makes you say that?)
Pigs are ranked as the sixth smartest animal and I have heard they make great pets. You would not eat a dog would you? Unless you are chinese...
Dolphins are slaughtered in Japan for food and they are ranked second smartest only outranked by chimpanzees. Watch that famous documentary about it and you will care more for the dolphins than before.
I also doubt cows are as dumb as they look and all cattle animals can suffer, feel pain or be happy.
I am not a vegetarian so I am not saying we should stop eating meat but we should consider better alternatives for the future or maybe even now.
Surely a cow is more "life" than an unborn human even though I would not prioritize a cow over a human unborn. But any proper dog owner knows that dogs are much like people and who here would sacrifice their beloved dog to save some "potential" human on the otherside of the globe. And it seems to me that the pigs that we eat and slaughter in millions are smarter than dogs.
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted February 27, 2012 01:10 PM |
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted February 27, 2012 01:29 PM |
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Edited by GunFred at 13:43, 27 Feb 2012.
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I did not really intend to discuss vegetarianism. Just wanted to show that animals are precious life too.
Curse you for posting that link. That last post by baklava almost made me lol in class. Good thing the teacher was sick today but it would still have been awkward.
And I began to think a little... Maybe instead of praying to god before dinner, we should thank the animal spirit and the bloody meat cleaver the chopped it into pieces.
A Listverse link with 10 things that further supports my point.
http://listverse.com/2012/02/24/10-human-attributes-found-in-animals/
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Corribus
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The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted February 27, 2012 02:51 PM |
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Gunfred,
Welcome to the OSM. Please direct future posts about animal welfare or vegetarianism to the appropriate thread (posted by DagothGares).
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted February 28, 2012 02:31 AM |
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@Elodin
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The states have the power to regulate medical procedures.
I see. So then if the state legislature of Texas, or whoever, passed a law that said, based on the documented connection between prostate screening and lower incidence of prostate cancer, all men over the age of 30 in Texas are required to have a prostate exam* every two years or face a $400 fine, then you'd have no problem with that?
Yes, I'd have a problem with that, and that is in no way similar to requiring an ultrasound for a woman seeking to kill her baby.
Certain states require that an ultrasound be performed when an abortion is sought. That is done for 1)informational purposes related to the abortion; 2) to establish the age of the unborn baby who is a candidate for murder. So the ultrasound is related to the abortion that the woman is seeking.
A state does not have the right to just impose a medical procedure on anyone in order to detect cancer, high blood pressure, or for any other preventative purposes.
However, if you seek to have a certain medical service performed, such as to have your baby murdered, the state does have the right to regulate the medical procedure that is performed.
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And before we care for the unborn maybe we should think about the living who are suffering their entire lives.
Without the right to life being protected no other rights matter. The right for an innocent person to live should be guarded.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 28, 2012 08:21 AM |
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Without the right to life being protected no other rights matter. The right for an innocent person to live should be guarded.
Before you ramble on about the protection of life and the right of innocent persons to live, you may want to answer the question I asked in the Contraception thread that you avoided since then.
What's the matter, Elodin? Why so shy suddenly?
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baklava
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posted February 29, 2012 03:10 PM |
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Without the right to life being protected no other rights matter. The right for an innocent person to live should be guarded.
Refer to my previous post to understand why you are not being consistent right now.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
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money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Corribus
Hero of Order
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posted February 29, 2012 04:03 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 16:03, 29 Feb 2012.
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Yes, I'd have a problem with that, and that is in no way similar to requiring an ultrasound for a woman seeking to kill her baby.
Actually, I'd argue that it's the exact same thing. In both cases, the government is requiring medical tests and executing medical decisions - decisions it has neither the authority or expertise to make.
So we're left with the fact that your position isn't self consistent, which is easily explained by my third option:
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Or do you only support the government getting involved in patient care when it advantageously interferes with lifestyle choices you personally disapprove of?
Yeah, that seems to be it.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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The_Gootch
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Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted March 02, 2012 07:16 PM |
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Absolutely spot on Corribus. Lies, hypocrisy, no memories, and really big balls. That's what the right has to offer us.
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Elodin
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posted March 03, 2012 01:56 AM |
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Yes, I'd have a problem with that, and that is in no way similar to requiring an ultrasound for a woman seeking to kill her baby.
Actually, I'd argue that it's the exact same thing. In both cases, the government is requiring medical tests and executing medical decisions - decisions it has neither the authority or expertise to make.
So we're left with the fact that your position isn't self consistent, which is easily explained by my third option:
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Or do you only support the government getting involved in patient care when it advantageously interferes with lifestyle choices you personally disapprove of?
Yeah, that seems to be it.
My position is consistent. Yours is irrational. There is not the slightest similarity in a state government requiring a test (ultrasound) in preparation for an abortion that the woman is seeking and your proposed case of the state mandating prostrate exams for all men of certain ages.
No, your statement about me supporting the government getting involved in patient care only when it interferes with lifestyle choices is untrue. That is putting it nicely.
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Without the right to life being protected no other rights matter. The right for an innocent person to live should be guarded.
Before you ramble on about the protection of life and the right of innocent persons to live, you may want to answer the question I asked in the Contraception thread that you avoided since then.
What's the matter, Elodin? Why so shy suddenly?
You dodge anywheres between 75-90% of the questions I ask ordinarily. I'll look to try to figure our what you are ranting about in the other thread though.
However, the fact stands that the right to life is the most basic of rights and without it no other rights matter. Sadly some people support snuffing out a baby's life if it interferes with the party life of the mother, the family is poor, the father is a criminal, and for other rather morally questionable reasons.
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Absolutely spot on Corribus. Lies, hypocrisy, no memories, and really big balls. That's what the right has to offer us.
The left is the side known for its argument that there is no such thing as morality. No good, no evil, no right, no wrong, no moral action, no immoral action. **Shrug** I'd say about all the left has to offer is a stretched out empty hand and words saying "Gimme, gimmeee, giveeeeemeeeeeee. PAY FOR MY CONTRACEPTION. PAY FOR MY ABORTION. Pay my rent. Buy my food. MOOOAAAARRR!!!!"
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gnomes2169
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posted March 03, 2012 03:16 AM |
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I'd say that politics should not be discussed anywhere in this thread unless it pertains to a direct personal opinion. *Shrugs*
And El, mandating that any examination of any kind must be followed is the arbitrary assigning of rules by a governing agency. If the government mandates any treatment or medical procedure, then it is over-stepping the bounds you gave it here.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
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