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| Thread: Heroes VI - A new beginning | |
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted February 24, 2012 09:43 PM |
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Heroes VI - A new beginning
Hello fellow Heroes fans,
There is recent intensification on the debacle about the future of Heroes VI and the Heroes series in general.
It seems that we are all in agreement that it is possible with some modifications to transform the current Heroes VI, a very good game, with the potential to be the best in the series. We also thought of some solutions on how to do just that. The problem is everything is scattered, unfinished or both. We have to show UBISoft that we know exactly where the issues are and that we are in agreement on how we want them to be addressed. Furthermore we can and should present them with complete solutions to the game's problems, increasing thus the influence we have on our game.
The reality is that the game is in the state that it is, and we have to step in to help improve it if we want to play a Heroes game in the next years. There will be no early ditching of Heroes VI for Heroes VII. UBISoft had a plan with at least 2 expansions and they WILL have make at least one more for many reasons. One of them is that any other scenario would mean an abrupt and sad end to the series. So let's all focus on fixing this installment and hopefully we will have a good game to play.
How we can help fix it?
First a list has been compiled with the major issues with Heroes 6 that we agree upon. Please provide feedback on it and it will be updated regularly. Once it reaches its final state, the intention is to petition it to UBISoft, SIGNED! by as many fans as possible.
Come up with some complete solutions for the issues we have. We do not need to face the developers with complaints like: "we don't like the current skill system, make another one". This king of guiding has already been done, and we can all see the result today. So instead let's present them with "we do not like the current skill system because... and here is our implementation".
So let's come with solutions for:
- What exactly do we want in the new town screens. (looks, functionality).
- A comprehensive and complete list of bugs.
- What is missing in the current UI (numbers on paths, kingdom overview, more info on right click hero, nicer artifact set info, allocate points in one click from level up window, etc)
- What should alternative creatures be.
- New battle-grounds
- New adventure map buildings
- How to balance the factions (here a good starter by JollyJoker)
- New factions for expansions
- Magic Guilds
- New Skill tree
- New resource Blood Diamonds
- AI weak points/improvements
- How to improve Conflux
Most of the points will not be easy to solve and could take some time, but if we are determined the results are guaranteed.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted February 24, 2012 09:53 PM |
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Call me a cynic, but there is one HUGE flaw in this otherwise very commendable plan. And that is:
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and that we are in agreement on how we want them to be addressed.
If there every was a community that was so inherantly divided on what they wanted, it's the Heroes players. I know that you're not an old frequenter of these parts, but the great many proposals, counterproposals and subsequent flaming has created a great crust of threads on the individual forums. Everyone has a unique view of what should happen and an even uniquer set if wishes.
The only thing the gross would agree upon is: "Not how it is now". And the best you can wish for, IMHO, is a majority and I wish you a great deal of luck getting just that.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Dark-Whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted February 24, 2012 10:21 PM |
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted February 24, 2012 10:27 PM |
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Quote:
Call me a cynic, but there is one HUGE flaw in this otherwise very commendable plan. And that is:
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and that we are in agreement on how we want them to be addressed.
To address just that there is this parallel thread released. The purpose of that thread is to identify with a better accuracy what do people really want. An that is not because we are so divided on the issues, it is just because opinions that are in minority, are way way over represented.
Quote:
The only thing the gross would agree upon is: "Not how it is now". And the best you can wish for, IMHO, is a majority and I wish you a great deal of luck getting just that.
I strongly disagree here as well. Again if you visit this thread I bet you will find yourself in agreement that we need 80%+ of the stuff proposed there. Further more, the alternative would be to continue to resume ourselves to individual sporadic actions and we all saw the results of that.
I refrained for some time from making such a thread just because of the "fear" that I would get close to no traction for it. To help with that we need help from veteran members of these forums. Up to now signals were positive, lets see the real outcome.
Just keep in mind that if this initiative or something similar does not get anywhere, we sadly really deserve the game in the state it's now.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 24, 2012 10:50 PM |
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I think a more interesting thread would be something like "The Perfect H7" where we come up with new, fun spell systems and factions et cetera. The community creates a "perfect" theoretical H7 together.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted February 24, 2012 11:05 PM |
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I can only speculate on the likelihood of a successful Heroes VII after a total Heroes VI fiasco. But the time-frame for it I would say is no sooner than 3-4 years.
That being said, we can create 1-10 perfect Heroes VII's  . But in the meantime we have a Heroes 6 that needs improving. Why not concentrate on this first? A better Heroes 6 can only help a future Heroes VII.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted February 24, 2012 11:11 PM |
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@krs:
I was aware of the wishlist already, however the priority scale is already biassed by your own view and does not get a neutral start. And mind that many people will come with their own suggestions.
I shall comment on what we "need" in the whishlist thread. And remember that you said this, for people may hold you accountable for this.
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Just keep in mind that if this initiative or something similar does not get anywhere, we sadly really deserve the game in the state it's now.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted February 24, 2012 11:41 PM |
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In the wish list I tried not to introduce my values but the values that I feel the majority of this community is in agreement (based on previous threads and endless discussions ). Off course I am myself biasing unwillingly the first values and can be dead wrong on some. But this is already in progress of being adjusted by replies to that post.
For those veterans that do not know where to put me, consider me a long time reader "first time" poster. I am highly committed to this as long there is some willingness from others. At worse it does not get enough traction (I do not see why because we are posting all day anyway) but it will be some kind of a measure on how divided are people on Heroes 6 issues.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted February 24, 2012 11:52 PM |
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Gonna agree on at least one thing war-overlord said : you are very biased in your presentation of things. Take your starting list of solutions for example :
- alternative upgrades
- magic guilds
- new skill trees
- new ressources
I'd like to see where it was established without a doubt that that was what was needed (because you kinda take that for granted here). And that's just me doubting those, other people might have other things to disagree on.
This being said, without even having to gripe on specific points, there's still something to be said and maybe criticized. Centralisation of all the thinking is one thing, and I think you are shooting for rationality. You even organized a little bit the discussion in 2 threads, 2 questions, "what should be done?" and "how should we do it?". However if you want this to really be rational, I think you need to go further. You can divide up just about any change anyone can come up with in 3 categories :
- fixing the game : this caters to bugs and balance, mostly. Makes what you actually have into a functional whole (whether you like that whole or not).
- redesigning elements of the game : this relates to suggestions such as redesigning skills or ressources, for example. Far reaching changes, to be sure, and more often than not a matter of taste.
- expanding the game : typically what you'd see in an expansion, as the name suggests. You don't create/change the mechanics, you just add more content. More factions, another might/magic school, etc...
From there, I would argue that there is a clear priorisation to be done, and I've already put it in that order. Making the game functionnal seems a logical first step. You have to have a clear starting point before you take steps forward, whether it be to change what you have or to add to it. Right now the game is buggy, and unbalanced. No one here, no one, has seen what the "true" HoMM6 is like. This needs to be cleared up before we can get a clean view of what is wrong with it (in terms of features that need changes, skills, etc) or to see what additions would be great to it. Tbh, serious discussion on these other points seems irrelevant to me, atm. Feel free to disagree.
Once you do have a clean starting point though, then I'd say you first change what you feel needs to be changed to make the "ideal" game, and then you add more content to it (keeping in mind that each time you add/change something, you need to fine tune the balance again, as it most likely was affected). This all seems the most rational way of doing it.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted February 25, 2012 12:48 AM |
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Edited by krs at 00:54, 25 Feb 2012.
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Quote:
Gonna agree on at least one thing war-overlord said : you are very biased in your presentation of things. Take your starting list of solutions for example :
- alternative upgrades
- magic guilds
- new skill trees
- new resources
The list is not flawless. And as I said before even by compiling it, even unwillingly it starts a little biased. For the items above I can recall Cepheus or Elvin wanting some stuff just like that. But if 4 users give 0 points to the things you've mentioned above it will averages a mere 10 points while Town screens will score a whooping 99.9%. That is the purpose of the list. Too many options do not hurt too much imho. Too less options do hurt though. And I will correct that according to user input.
Quote:
- fixing the game : this caters to bugs and balance, mostly. Makes what you actually have into a functional whole (whether you like that whole or not).
- redesigning elements of the game : this relates to suggestions such as redesigning skills or ressources, for example. Far reaching changes, to be sure, and more often than not a matter of taste.
- expanding the game : typically what you'd see in an expansion, as the name suggests. You don't create/change the mechanics, you just add more content. More factions, another might/magic school, etc...
I used one list with subdivisions and includes all your points. To me it makes more sense since development will go in parallel on different parts of the game. And it is not impossible to get and extra resource for example if people really want it. I can quote the H5 Necromancy change as a parallel.
The problem I see now with this initiative is that everybody wants to make its voice heard and want to see his features implemented BUT what's up with this nobody coming up with the list.
I say this again! I am committed to this "job" as long as it takes, or as long as there is interest. Only you can decide which comes first. Hopefully more and more players will step in and help.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted February 25, 2012 01:07 AM |
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Quote:
The problem I see now with this initiative is that everybody wants to make its voice heard and want to see his features implemented BUT what's up with this nobody coming up with the list.
I'd say that's one of the good points of dividing everything into what fixes the game, and what changes/adds to it.
Have the basic "this game is playable" package that deals with bugs/balance, and on the side have other modifications that add or change features, which people can choose to add or not, depending on their preferences. Or in other words, have a basic "gamefix" package of changes as well as a "feature and content mall" where people go get whatever features they want, or check out the factions etc that they could add to the game. Everyone can build his own perfect game, with the basic premisce that it works.
I'd like to help you more with suggestions, but I don't know the game well enough. These days I advance through the game at about the same pace as my Let's play advances, approximately 1 scenario per week. The LP just finished the first Haven map (doing them left to right), my own private run is exactly 1 campaign ahead, 1 map done in sanctuary. I've got ideas to balance the factions I know (Haven and Necro, with a bit of inferno 'cause I've been playing around with them), but that's about it, and I've voiced most of those already.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted February 25, 2012 01:20 AM |
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For me, since X-mas the game is playable. I really do not encounter major bugs that stop me from playing (luck, griffin dive). So it is less of a problem of fix what we have but fix and improve it. While polishing would certainly help a lot, for me it's the core mechanics of the game are too bland to make the game worth the effort (awful skill trees, androgynous towns, not enough faction diversity, lack of and extra resource, etc).
I also have the feeling I belong to a majority and I hope we can change some of these things.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted February 25, 2012 01:35 AM |
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Quote:
For me, since X-mas the game is playable. I really do not encounter major bugs that stop me from playing (luck, griffin dive). So it is less of a problem of fix what we have but fix and improve it. While polishing would certainly help a lot, for me it's the core mechanics of the game are too bland to make the game worth the effort (awful skill trees, androgynous towns, not enough faction diversity, lack of and extra resource, etc).
I also have the feeling I belong to a majority and I hope we can change some of these things.
Oh it's playable for me too. That's not the point. What I'm saying is, you're gonna have a much easier time satisfying everyone if you seperate what everyone will want (fixing bugs, balance) from what some people will want, and others will contest (like me, I don't agree with most of what you want, at least for now). Fixing the game, everyone can agree on (balance might take a while to fully agree on though), while modifying/adding is gonna be very hard/impossible for everyone to agree on. All I'm saying is, keep both seperated, so everyone can get the polish, and then choose whatever features he wants. That way everyone gets the polished game he wants, with the features he wants.
Oh and ideally every "feature" is a package of it's own too. Again, that way people choose what they want.
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