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| Thread: Tiers: Coherence and Diffenentiation. A War-overlord approach. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 20, 2012 03:51 PM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 18 May 2012. |
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Tiers: Coherence and Diffenentiation. A War-overlord approach.
I have recently been pondering the new tier-system that recently has been introduced by Heroes VI.
 Before we continue, this is not a "I want 7 tiers back! The old ways are the Best!"-thread and I do not wish to have it turned into one.
If my explainations are unclear, do not hesitate to ask.
Origins of my Reasonings
Let me start by saying that I actually like the new Core>Elite>Champion approach to the tiers of a faction. It functions for me, balance issues withstanding, as it was supposed to. I.e. it makes lower tiers not lose their usefullness in later games and makes for a cohesive and believable fantasy army. However, due to the nature of the units in Heroes VI, this makes for a very unbending army. Due to the singular purpose of the individual units there generally is a very clear and obvious way to use them, making strategies set in stone. Which makes the gameplay grinding after a while, doing the same over and over again. So what this system needs is a way of diversifying the strategies presented to a player when playing a specific faction.
Heroes V TotE solved a similar problem for Heroes V by introducing alternative upgrades. And for all the problems that brought with itself, it did give the player a manner of differntiating tactics without having to rely upon different factions, something which I am loath to do. Also from a lore perspective, and as many will know my favorite perspective, it often felt very forced to have to introduce a second unit that is very much the same, yet distinctly different.
Another reason for this idea is the excuse to add a handfull of creatures to the factions, whatever factions they may be (for I intend to come up with something for all known factions, to come up with an imaginary roster for a possible expansion and/or sequel as a creative exercise for myself)
The System and How it would work
To put it simply, I intend to expand the Core and Elite Tiers, Champion tiers work fine as they are, by subdividing them into two stages. Namely Base Units and Complementary Units.
Buildings
This schematic shows how this would work in the build tree.
Building two Base Dwellings, would unlock a single Complementary Dwelling. In the process, it would lock the other Dwellings of that tier. Giving you a total of 3 units of a single tier and 3 different approaches to a single tier and effectively 9 to every faction as this goes for both Core and Elite Tiers.
Obviously this poses a problem once you start conquering other towns, as you run the risk of conquering towns that have chosen a different path leaving you with units you do not want. (Something I call the Heroes IV problem) Therefore, this system cannot go without the option to demolish buildings that have been built. The way I imagine it you could demolish buildings and dwellings in 2 ways. First by actively choosing to demolish a specific building. This would give you a refund of half the materials used to to build the specific building and the upgrades.(More on upgrades later) Also I imagine a player to be able to demolish two buildings in a single turn, seeing how it is easier to wreck something than it is to build something. This would also slightly reduce the time spent to get a new town to the wanted state. The second way to demolish buildings is to convert a town. I imagine that this would stay and when applied demolishes all dwellings and all other buildings where choice is involved in the process. Buildings like fortifications and townhalls, would remain standing in this manner.
Units
The way I imagine it, the Base Units of a given tier work the same way they do in the current Heroes VI system. Having an upgraded version that increases their abilities, their growth and their stats. Complementary Units however do not have upgrades and in regards to their strength they hover between an unpugraded and an upgraded unit of their tier. To compensate the weekly strenght growth in a town, Complementary Units can upgrade their dwelling with a hoard-building therefor making up for their lack of strenght compared to an upgraded unit of their tier in increased growth.
The way I imagine Complementary Units working is to replace the role of the Base Unit that got locked out in a differing way. I think the best way of demonstrating this is with a full example of a tier. And explain my reasoning behind it and I will keep the names descriptive. I will do so below and for simplicity's sake I will not go into upgrades. And as say before, I intend to do every faction over time like this. And an [L] indicates a lareg creature.
The Factions:
Stronghold
Stronghold Core:
Base 1: Orc Warrior
Base 2: Goblin
Base 3: Harpy
Complementary 1+2: Goblin Hyena Rider
Complementary 1+3: Orc Axe Thrower
Complementary 2+3: Ogre
Explanation: Let's assume that the Warrior is an assault unit, the Goblin is a shooter and the Harpy functions as it always has. By excluding the Harpy the tier looses a fast unit that deals damage quickly. Thus replacing it with a mobile Hyena Rider, it loses it's flight and Strike-&-Return, but would make that up with better survivability when cornered and a crippling ability. By excluding the Goblin you loose your shooter. Thus replacing it by an Axe Thrower that would encourage you to get closer with the unit through melee capabilities and a must-move-to-shoot "run-up" ability. By excluding the Warrior, you loose your ability to recieve damage through the frail Harpies and Goblin. Thus, with a shooter and a damage support unit, dealing damage is not realy the issue making a tank Ogre the ideal unit to fill the empty space. (If my role assumptions are unclear, just ask.)
Stronghold Elite:
Base 1: Orc Shaman
Base 2: Centaur [L]
Base 3: Orc Boar Rider [L]
Complementary 1+2: Wyvern/Pao-Kai [L]
Complementary 1+3: Centaur Skyseer [L]
Complementary 2+3: Orc Slayer
Explanation: Let us assume that the Shaman is a melee caster, that the Centaur is an shooter and that the Boar Rider is Shock-Assault. By excluding the Shaman, you loose your caster support. Thus the Slayer, rather like the Chieftain in Heroes V, serves as an offensive unit that doubles as a mobile rally point. I.e. boosting stats to nearby friendlies and having some sort of support ability. By Excluding the normal Centaur, you loose your shooter. However, I could not in good conscience not have a Centaur, so I replaced a shooter Centaur with an Offensive Caster Centaur. By excluding the Boar Rider, you loose the main drive behind your offensive. So by replacing that with a Flying Assault unit like a Wyvern/Poa-Kai you essentially trade Cavalry Momentum for Death from Above.
Stronghold Champion:
Cyclops [L], simply because I have liked them immensly in this role it Heroes V and VI and I intend to keep them there. And because having a fortification wrecking giant seems a good idea of a Champion Creature.
Haven
Haven Core:
Base 1: Sentinel
Base 2: Crossbowman
Base 3: Field Surgeon
Complementary 1+2: Warhound
Complementary 1+3: Longbowman
Complementary 2+3: Militia
Explanation: I think the Base Units speak for themselves, but let us go over them nonetheless. Let us assume that the Sentinel is, as in Heroes VI a tank, the Crossbowman a shooter and the Field Surgeon is a healer(more on that choice later). Now when one excludes the Field Surgeon, one has a tank and a shooter, thus one lacks a support unit. A mobile attack unit like a Warhound would thus compliment the others. When one excludes the Crossbowman, one exchanges one shooter for another. The way I imagine it, this is a choice between the high single target damage of a Crossbowman, or the area (arrow-rain)damage of the Longbowman. When one excludes the Sentinel, one is left without a unit to soak damage. Militia, who are evidently weaker and unlike the Sentinel who absorbs damage via damage reducution and high hp, are designed to simply absorb damage through sheer numbers, making them also pair nicely with the Field Surgeon.
[In regards to the Field Surgeon, I found that a dedicated healer unit for Haven fits quite nicely. Heroes VI is currently unbalanced, but that does not do away the merit of the idea. I Imagine the Field Surgeon to be a unit primarily for healing friendlies, but only being able to do so in melee range.]
Haven Elite:
Base 1: Griffin [L]
Base 2: Cavalier [L]
Base 3: Monk
Complementary 1+2: Glory
Complementary 1+3: Landsknecht
Complementary 2+3: Templar [L]
Explanation: Let us assume that Griffins work as a Spearhead with a diving ability, that the Cavalier work like they always have and that the monk is primarily a shooter and a secondary support unit. Where one to exclude the Griffin, one would lose the unit that initiates the Haven Assault. There the light Templar cavalry fills that role with somewhat less speed and higher survivability, coupled with an ability to increase damage output without the need to move(to differentiate them from Cavaliers). Where one to exclude the Cavalier, one would lose a very capable assault unit. Thus the Landsknecht, would fill the assault role with somewhat less speed and hp, but with the possibility of hitting multiple units with a sweeping attack. When the Monk is excluded, one would loose a shooter, making the rear-guard falter somewhat. The Glory, which as it functions now is an Elite Holy Harpy, fills this niche reasonable by being, like the Harpy, a very moblie Hit-'n-Run unit.
Haven Champion:
(lesser) Angel [L], This is one of those cases where tradition is a good thing.
Necropolis
Necropolis Core:
Base 1: Skeleton
Base 2: Ghoul
Base 3: Ghost
Complementary 1+2: Grave Hound
Complementary 1+3: Skeleton Infantry
Complementary 2+3: Necrolyte
Explanation:Let us assume that the Base Creatures work more or less like Heroes 6. Skeletons are shooters, Ghouls are Assault Creatures, Ghosts are a lightly attack-oriented flying Creature. No Healing here. Now were you to exclude the Skeleton, you are switching your physical shooter for a magic/elemental shooter.(I am liking the distinction of might and magic creatures) When you exclude the Ghoul, you loose your Assault Creature, making the Necropolis grab back to an old favorite. Swamping their opponent in cheap hordes of weaker Skeleton fighters. When you exclude the Ghost, you loose your fast unit. So the Grave Hound, being an undead hound-creature, fills that niche by being a disease-spreading, somewhat less fast creature.
Necropolis Elite:
Base 1: Vampire
Base 2: Lich
Base 3: Black Knight (Lich)[L]
Complementary 1+2: Lamasu [L]
Complementary 1+3: Spidersworn(Vampire)
Complementary 2+3: Haunted Armour
Explanation: First a little lore perspective, in my view the Necropolis is ruled by 2 forms of undead, namely Liches and Vampires (I don't buy that one is a advanced form of the other, just that both are advanced states of sentient undeath). Most others are mindless minions, Necromancers are either or, like Necrolytes, have yet to advance to one such state and Fate Weavers uncontrolable but dubious in it's sentience. Vampires and Liches compete for power, with Liches in most cases coming out on top, due to their numerical superiority, which is due to Lichdom being the easier choice. Let us assume that Vampires still hold their traditional role which we can surmise as Assault, that the Liches function as both shooters and as casters and that Black Knights are more tankish Assault Units. Now would one exclude the Black Knights the generally slow necro army would leave the faster Vampires unsupported, so the flying Lamasu fills that role with, as is the case now, less punch but more crippling. If one were to exclude the Lich, you loose your backbench support, so you choose to switch your shooter/caster for a very offensive caster. And, as is more or less the case with the Black Knight, when excluding the Vampire you again have your front line fall appart, so you get a very tanky Haunted Armour who would either help defend your now crucial backbench or support your assault.
Necropolis Champion:
Fate Spinners [L],they work fine both lorewise and on the field, though they should have their forms retconned as being the other way round.(I.E. Spiderform is melee, and humanoid is caster/shooter)
Sanctuary [note: most names here can easily looked up via internet]
Sanctuary Core:
Base 1: Sharkguard
Base 2: Tengu
Base 3: Coral Priestess
Complementary 1+2: Kyudoka
Complementary 1+3: Kappa
Complementary 2+3: Qiang Pikeman
Explanation: Before we go into strategy, let me explain what the units are supposed to be. The Tengu are, like harpies, a creature that is half human and half bird and are often associated with war. In this case they are, in my mind, humanoid Ravens. The Kyudoka is someone who practices the art of Kyudo(Archery). The Kyudoka is therefor a (asiatic)Human bowman. The Qiang is the traditional Chinese spear. The Qiang Pikeman is spearwielding infantry of the third Naga Species(However they would be protrayed(In my mind they are the most snakelike of the three species))
Let us assume that Sharkguard, Coral Priestesses and Kappa work as they do in Heroes VI without the healing, i.e. Assault, Magical Shooter and something that is occasionally usefull are a harrasment unit.(Their leap being usefull, when it's on cooldown it is scraping the bottom of usefull for whatever) The Tengu is a flyer that is a usefull harrasment unit, but quite frail. So when not choosing for a Tengu, you choose something that isn't as usefull in harrassing but that does stand a chance of surviving. When excluding the Coral Priestess one is betreft of a shooter and is effectively swapping it for a physical shooter, who make up for their lower survivability by high numbers and status-effect resistance.(Kyudo being often, and often not incorrectly, associated with Zen Buhdism) When excluding the Sharkguard, one looses the 'effective punch' of the entire tier. Thus the Qiang Pikeman is a slightly more defensive, slower and charge resisant Assault unit.
Sanctuary Elite:
Base 1: Kenshi [L]
Base 2: Snow Maiden
Base 3: Firearrow Battery [L]
Complementary 1+2: Wanizame Kuge [L]
Complementary 1+3: Shachihoko
Complementary 2+3: Oni [L]
Explanation:Before we go into strategy, let me explain what the units are supposed to be. The Fire Arrow Battery is a Hwacha Artillery piece crewed by a, or several, "Third Specie Naga". The Oni is a Seagaint.(Like this, but blue and with webbed digits and gills 'n stuff) In an attempt to mashup the traditional idea of an Oni with the "sea-theme" of Sanctuary. Traditionally a Shachihoko is a carp with a tigerhead, who is a tutelary spirit. So in this case the Shachihoko is a cross between a carp and a tiger. (no picture that aproximates my vision) The Wanizame Kuge is a Sharkguard mounted on whatever horse-like creature it is Sanctuary Heroes ride upon. Kuge being japanese for either an aristocrat or an aristocratic family or aristocracy as a social class.
Let us assume that the Kenshi and Snow Maiden work as they do in Heroes VI and let us assume that the Firearrow Battery has quite high, but unaccurate AoE Damage. So were one to exclude the Firearrow Battery, the Sanctuary looses a lot of punch, thus making up for that with a mobile cavalry Shock-Assault unit. Were one to exclude the Snow Maiden, one looses a shooter that can slow down the enemy assault. Thus, being unable to slow the enemy assault, the Shachihoko is an interceptor unit. Lastly, were one to exclude the Kenshi, one is left with 2 shooters that need protecting, thus having the strong but slow Oni fill the role of Tank.
[And before you ask, no, I have very little qualms of introducing a gunpowder unit]
Sanctuary Champion:
Kirin [L], whatever grievance you may have about the Kirin, like they should be called Lung, yadayadayada, they work as Sanctuary Champions. So I intend to keep them where they are.
Inferno
Inferno Core:
Base 1: Cerberus
Base 2: Horned Demon
Base 3: Succubus
Complementary 1+2: Magog
Complementary 1+3: Fellsworn
Complementary 2+3: Imp
Explanation: Before we go into strategy, let me explain what the units are supposed to be. I suppose that Cerberus and Succubus speak for itself. The Horned Demon is supposed to the one from Heroes V. The Magog is basically this. The Fellsworn is a humanoid warrior Cultist of indeterminate race(it could be a Human, but it could also be an Elf or something else?). The Imp is supposed to be a hybrid between the Heroes IV and V Imps.
Let us assume that the Cerberus and Succubus work the way we all know and love. The Horned Demon is a tank with the Heroes V explode ability. Now when one excludes the Cerberus, one looses the spearhead of the assault. The Imp makes up for that by being able to fly and being a thorn in the side of casters(As we all know and love about Imps). If one was to exclude the Horned Demon, the Inferno army looses it's ability to take damage. Thus the Fellsworn is supposed to be an interceptor unit that is able to either protect the Succubi or able to keep up with the Cerberi. Lastly, if the Succubus is excluded Inferno looses it's shooter. And I return to something usefull I noticed, being swapping one shooter for another. The Magog, as opposed to the shooter/harasser that the Succubus is, works as a ranged Splash damage dealer.(Just like in III)
Inferno Elite:
Base 1: Efreet
Base 2: Nightmare [L]
Base 3: Juggernaut [L]
Complementary 1+2: Devourer [L]
Complementary 1+3: Hellkyte [L]
Complementary 2+3: Sorcerer
Explanation: Before we go into strategy, let me explain what the units are supposed to be. I suppose that I need not explain the Nightmare and the Efreet. The Juggernaut is the same as in Heroes VI. This is a Devourer. This is a Hellkyte. This is a Sorcerer.
Let us assume that the Efreet is an Offensive Melee Caster, that the Nightmare is a Shock-Assault unit and that the Juggernaut is a tank. If one was to exclude the Efreet, one would get Sorcerers in return who function as shooter/casters. If one was to exclude the Nightmare, as done before one would swap a Shock-Assault unit for a more mobile and frailer flyer. If one was to exclude the Juggernaut, one looses the ability to take damage via a tank, thus with the Devourer(which is focused on taking units out of play) one gets to ability to prevent/hold off damage.
Inferno Champion:
Pit Fiend [L], Again an example of a Champion that simply works.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 20, 2012 03:53 PM |
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The Factions: It continues.
Fortress I am basing my new Fortress very much one my previous attempt that can be found here.
Fortress Core:
Base 1: Mountain Guard
Base 2: Flametrooper
Base 3: Yeti
Complementary 1+2: Arquebussier
Complementary 1+3: Viking
Complementary 2+3: Berserker
Explanation: Let me start by explaining what the units are. A lot of background for the base units that can be found here. The Arquebussier is a Dwarf with a primitive firearm. This is a Berserker. And I do not suppose I have to explain what a Viking is, other than to say that they are Human allies and not shipborne Dwarves.
Strategically, the Mountain Guard is a tank. The Flametrooper is an Offensive Support(Suitable for both supporting an assault or a defense) and the Yeti is a disruptive shooter. When the Mountain Guard is excluded, the Fortress Core looses it's solid defense and with a mobile Berserker, who is a very good assault unit, it is geared towards a more offensive strategy. When the Flametrooper is excluded, one gets a Viking in return, loosing a support unit but gaining a unit that can act as either an interceptor or as an assault unit with relative competence. When the Yeti is excluded, one replaces that shooter with another, the Arquebussier, which trades it's disruptive shooting for pure damage output.
Fortress Elite:
Base 1: Warbear Rider [L]
Base 2: Troll
Base 3: Salamander [L]
Complementary 1+2: Lindorm [L]
Complementary 1+3: Pyromancer
Complementary 2+3: Jotun [L]
Explanation: Let me start by explaining what the units are. A lot of background for the base units that can be found here.This is a Lindorm. This is a Pyromancer And this is a Jotun.
Strategicaly, the Warbear Rider is a Shock Assault Unit. The Troll is a Tank/Siege unit and the Salamander is a Flying Assault unit. As a whole the Elite Tier is designed to be the main drive behind the Fortress assault. When the Warbear Rider is excluded, the player looses a lot of push behind the assault, thus the Jotun is designed to be a slower unit, both capable of forming an assault as well as hanging back more defensively. When the Troll is excluded, Fortress looses a lot of capability in siege as well as the ability to hold when the enemy reaches the back lines. Thus as an offensive caster/shooter, the Pyromancer gives ranged support in siege and makes it much harder to even reach Fortress lines. Lastly when the Salamander is exlcuded, the Fortress Player looses it's only air unit. The Lindorm makes that up by being a fast ground unit with both assault and intercept capability.
Fortress Champion:
Mastodon Rider [L], I liked that the Fortress Heroes of Heroes V were mounted on Mammoth/Mastodon like animals. And I think it makes sense to use them as War-beasts and they fit the champion role well I think.
Dungeon
Dungeon Core:
Base 1: Arbalist (Just imagine it's an D-Elf)
Base 2: Minotaur
Base 3: Assassin
Complementary 1+2: Gargoyle
Complementary 1+3: Troglodyte
Complementary 2+3: Witch (Despite my comment, I find this one asexual enough.)
Explanation:The names link to a picture.
Let's talk strategy. Let us assume that the Arbalist is a shooter, that the Minotaur is Assault/Tank and the Assassin Glass-Cannon with stealth. So when the Arbalist is excluded, you lose your shooter, so in time honoured tradition, you replace your physical shooter with an elemental one. When you exclude the Minotaur, you are left with a shooter and a Glass-Cannon, so nothing that can take a hit. Thus you trade Minotaur survivability for Troglodyte expendability. Trogs are weak and die like flies, but they cost peanuts and have explosive growth. Lastly, excluding the Assassin puts a big dent in Dungeon Core's ability to dish out damage, so you get a fairly survivable flying creature in return to make up for that.
Dungeon Elite:
Base 1: Raider [L]
Base 2: Beholder
Base 3: Manticore [L]
Complementary 1+2: Dark Pegasus Knight [L]
Complementary 1+3: Marilith
Complementary 2+3: Ballista [L] (Imagine it crewed by Minotaur slaves)
Explanation: Again, pictures are provided in the names. Lorewise, Mariliths are what happens to Dark Elves if they mess about with Faceless secrets/magics too much. (And a bit of a throwback to the Medusas, without having to retcon Medusas as not actually being Naga)
Strategically, The Raider is Schock-Assault, the Beholder is a Shooter/Caster, the Manticore is a flying Cripler/Interceptor. Now if you were to exclude the Raiders, the Dungeon would loose a lot of punch in the Assault(Untill you get to the Protodragons). As a way to compensate that, for either playing defensively or doing damage before the remainder of the assault arrives, you get a high physical damage shooter in the Ballista. When the Beholders are excluded, you lose your magic, therefor the Marilith is a caster that is capable of melee once it runs out of spells/mana. Lastly if you were to exclude the Manticore, you loose your ability to fly, which did not go well with me in Dungeon Elite. So the Dark Pegasus Knight is also a flying unit that functions as a Shock-Assault unit as wel, taking the fight to them instead of intercepting it.
Dungeon Champion:
Protodragon [L], What is Dungeon without a Dragon. Even if it's not a full dragon, this Protodragon fitts rather nicely I think
Sylvan
Sylvan Core:
Base 1: Sprite
Base 2: Warden
Base 3: Hunter
Complementary 1+2: Terratoise
Complementary 1+3: Satyr
Complementary 2+3: White Tiger
Explanation: Much of this is based on My redition of the Sylvan Faction here. With a bit of switching things round. The names link to pictures.
Strategically, the Hunter is a very good Shooter(duh), the Warden is a Bulk-Interceptor and the Sprite is a flying Harasser. Most of Sylvan's core being centered around the Hunters and keeping them alive to do their thing which they do so wel.
Starting with that, if one excludes the Hunters, you get Terratoises. Which are elemental shooters, also pretty good ones, that stop units in their tracks. If one was to exclude the Wardens, one loses the way of keeping the Hunters alive, so the Satyr are fast Assault creatures who tend to rely on the Hunters to finish the enemy up or soften them before they get there, but nonetheless take the fight to the enemy. When exlcuding the sprites, on loses their flying Harasser. So one gets Tigers in return. Tigers being somewhere in the middle of being Assault and Interceptor.
Sylvan Elite:
Base 1: Unicorn [L]
Base 2: Lynx Amazon [L]
Base 3: Druid
Complementary 1+2: Blademaster
Complementary 1+3: Giant Owl Rider [L]
Complementary 2+3: Giant Mantis [L]
Explanation: Again, the names link to pictures.
Talking Strategy, Elite is what puts the real push in Sylvans Army. The Unicorn being a Assault/Rally-point(Friendlies get bonuses for being near them), The Lynx Amazon being Shock-Assault and the Druid being a Shooter/Caster.
Now if one was to exlcude the Unicorn, one would get a Giant Mantis in return. Mantisses being flying, stealthy and deadly but, to compensate for that, quite killable, in a role somewhere between Glass-Cannon and Harasser. If one was to exclude the Lynx Amazons, one would loose the Shock-Assault, but one would gain Owl Riders, who function as Flying-Assault. Lastly if one was to exclude the Druids, one would get a Blademaster. Blademasters are designed to cutt many enemies down, be that either in Assault or Intercept, as they fit both roles.
Sylvan Champion:
Forest Giant [L], one of the few Sylvan creatures who can realy take a beating. I chose for this more-or-less earth elemental, Treant, Giant Hybrid, because I realy like this pic and I couldn't find a suitable treant one that hasn't been used to death.
Academy
Academy Core:
Base 1: Golem
Base 2: Gremlin (look like they did in Heroes V)
Base 3: Janissary
Complementary 1+2: Anubite
Complementary 1+3: Apprentice
Complementary 2+3: Experimental Hybrid
Explanation: Lorewise, I've always felt that there weren't enough people in Academy, so I've added a few more. Second, the Anubite is one of the few Beastmen(half jackal) that has not rebelled.
Strategically, the Golem is what we know of it a tank, that could Assault if it wasn't so slow. The Gremlin is a physical shooter. The Janissary is an Assault unit.
So if we exclude the Golem, we get the Experimental Hybrid which switches the roles round, as in an Assault unit that can Tank reasonably well. If we exclude the Gremlin, we get the Apprentice which does magical damage of a random element(to portray his lack of true magical mastery). If we exclude the Janissary, we lose the ability to assault well. So you get the Anubite in return which is an Assault/Interceptor trading a great deal of capability to take damage for a big speed/movement boost.
Academy Elite:
Base 1: Mage
Base 2: Djinn (again like H5)
Base 3: Rakshasa
Complementary 1+2: Nomad Camelry
Complementary 1+3: Roc
Complementary 2+3: Alchemist (like a mage, only behung with bottles and potions)
Explanation: Strategically, the Mage is a Shooter-Caster as we know and love, the Djinn is a Flying melee-Caster and the Rakshasa is as it was in Heroes V a sturdy Assault unit.
Now if we Exlcude the Mage, we get the Alchemist, which functions the same only with different magic-abilities and shorter range(He has the throw the bottles at the enemy afterall). If we exlcude the Genie, we get the Roc which, betreft of magic, is a true Flying-Assault unit. Lastly, if we exclude the Rakshasa, we get Nomad Camelry, getting a Shock-Assault unit and the IMO necessary cavalry unit.
Academy Champion:
Titan [L], Cause what's Academy without the Titan? Or Magi or Golems for that matter, but you catch my drift.
Ruins
The Ruins are the Lizardman/Swamp faction revisited.
Ruins Core:
Base 1: Savage
Base 2: Prowler
Base 3: Couatl
Complementary 1+2: Sahuagin
Complementary 1+3: Mandragora
Complementary 2+3: Apeling
Explanation: The names link to pictures of the creatures I have in mind. Mind though, that the Savage is indicative of what I had in mind as being Lizardmen. Lorewise, none of these are actually beastmen(as in being created by the Wizards), all are uniquely evolved creatures, the Lizardmen being the dominant species of the Ruins.
Strategically, the Savage functions as the Assault creature, the Prowler is a Shooter with decent Melee and the Couatl is a disruptive flier.
So when the Savage is excluded, Core will loose their Assault, and the Apeling will permit a more defensive strategy as a Bulk-Interceptor. Meaning that it can intercept and has enough growth to soak a certain amount of damage, but not enough to be a true tank. Loosing the Prowler, the player will loose a survivable physical Shooter, but gain a poisonous shooter in return that drags would be melee attackers with them. Lastly loosing the Couatl, means loosing the ability to provide close support in the Assault or help defend the shooter. Thus the Sahuagin is a Support-Assault unit, capable of pushing the Assault that extra mile but not survivable enough to take the actual lead.
Ruins Elite:
Base 1: Basilisk [L]
Base 2: Hexer
Base 3: :Hydra Rider [L] (Picture this with a Lizardman riding it)
Complementary 1+2Cockatrice [L]
Complementary 1+3: Loa Idol
Complementary 2+3: Dragon Turtle [L]
Explanation: Pictures are included in the names again. Lorewise, the Ruins Hyrda is a related species to the former Dungeon one, but having 2 Hydras seems a bit unimaginative, especially since they fit Lizardmen better than Warlocks.
Strategically, you may assume that the Basilisk is an Bulk-Interceptor, that the Hexer is a Shooter/Caster and that the Hydra is a Shock-Assault, though they are pretty slow As far as Shock-Assault units go.
Now if one were to exclude the Basilisk, one would get the Dragon Turtle. Trading the ability to Intercept with the ability to lure enemies to this true Tank, with the risk that they might go for the things you were trying to protect. Now if you were to exclude the Hexer you get the stationary Shooter/Caster of the Loa Idol. Trading the ability to survive melee for not being able to move the thing. Excluding the Hydra will give you the Cockatrice which means swapping Shcok-Assault for Flying Assault, still meaning Assult, but making up for the flying by being able to take less punishment.
Ruins Champion:
Dracosaur Rider (again, with a Lizardman riding it) [L], What better to serve as a Lizardman champion, other than a Hydra which by Ashan standards aren't that powerfull, than a big Dinosaur. Especially if you can actually have both.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 20, 2012 05:22 PM |
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I think alternate upgrades is all we need.
This idea feels very unrealistic because it doesn't feel likely at all that they would EVER bother to make 6 new models/creatures per faction.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
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- John Stuart Mill
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 20, 2012 05:28 PM |
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Admittedly this is more of a Thought Experiment for a new installment rather than an expansion, though I think that, Gods forbid, were it actually implemented, it could work for an expansion.
And as I've said, I find alternative upgrades rather more forced than is good for them.
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Jiriki9
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Altar Dweller
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posted April 20, 2012 05:37 PM |
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I like the idea pretty much!
It gives a good deal of choice, which I like.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 20, 2012 11:38 PM |
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Nice idea, but take a look at your elite tier example, I think you have the Orc Slayer and the Wyvern mixed up (you have the Orc Slayer down as requiring the Orc Shaman, while the Wyvern requires the Orc Boar Rider.
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War-overlord
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Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 21, 2012 10:52 AM |
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Oops, you're right, thanks. Fixed now.
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Jiriki9
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posted April 21, 2012 12:56 PM |
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I think your stronghol dlineup is quite fine now!
May one also give own ideas as inspiration?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 21, 2012 01:04 PM |
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Quote:
I think your stronghol dlineup is quite fine now!
May one also give own ideas as inspiration?
Thank you. You're free to do so, however, I have quite a few ideas myself. So don't be insult it if I don't change them on account of the ideas of others.
And be advised that I, as many well know, am rather the advocate of Racial Basis.
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Jiriki9
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posted April 21, 2012 01:45 PM |
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Of course I wouldn't be!
Looking at your haven lineup, I wouldn't ahve had the same, but it would be close, definitely. Also, seeing you do not seem to take the H6 lineups directly, is something I like  Only true concern I have is, I think that militia should be base and sentinel complementary. Just fits better...
however, an idea by me:
Necropolis
Core
Base 1: Walking Dead
Base 2: Cultist
Base 3: Vulture (or crow or a similar corpse-feasting bird)
Complementary 1+2: Ghost
Complementary 1+3: Skeletal Beast
Complementary 2+3: Skeleton Guard
I chose the "classical" way of no shooters in the core, here. We have a unit with most of a support role, though: the Cultist, which shall also be the only (still) living unit of the whole neccropolis. On the complementaries: Taking out the Bird, you loose a flyer, and I think it only fit to replace it with a flyer: the ghost. Statwise, the bird should be better, but the ghosts have their immateriality...taking out the cultist takes out a supporter, but I nevertheless decided for another quick attacker here. With that choice you have a very melee-oriented core lineup, however, and need to be carefull. Taking out the walking dead, you obviously need a new damage taker and I think skeletons can definitely be seen as that. Here, the Walking dead would simply take much damage, whilst the skeleton would be especially resistant to ranged attacks.
[Alternative: alternative ghost could be seen as a support unit and be complementary 1+3, whilst the c1+2 would be a gargoyle, which can fit well with necropolis, imo]
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War-overlord
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Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 21, 2012 09:50 PM |
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Quote:
Only true concern I have is, I think that militia should be base and sentinel complementary. Just fits better...
I disagree, though more on a lore point of view, which I assume you do to if I read your comment. Armies should rely on professional soldiers, i.e. the Sentinels. When those are not available, then you rely on untrained, unprofessional volunteers and city-guards.
As for your Necropolis Core line-up. It is nice, but Nercopolis is one of the factions I had more or less thought out. Also, I have a great loathing of the Walking Dead/Zombies. I had another Idea for them, but that system I have not thought out yet. The problems I am running in now, one which I had unknowingly already solved in Stronghold, is the distinction of large versus small creatures.
Also, I think that Gargoyles suit Warlocks better than Necromancers.
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Jiriki9
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posted April 22, 2012 06:11 PM |
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Edited by Jiriki9 at 19:49, 22 Apr 2012.
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Quote:
I disagree, though more on a lore point of view, which I assume you do to if I read your comment. Armies should rely on professional soldiers, i.e. the Sentinels. When those are not available, then you rely on untrained, unprofessional volunteers and city-guards.
Yeah. Yet you also said that complementary units are strengthwise between basic and upgraded...and that would make them stronger than sentinels^^ that's where my confusion mainly originated in...
EDIT:
for your necro: you can have 2 skeletons this way. I don't think I like that...otherwise quite fine.
another try. I think the Elves offer a lot of possible differentation, though I do not know if my proposals may be too "un-racial" for you...
"Sylvan":
Core
Base 1: Satyr/Faun
Base 2: Hunter
Base 3: Wolf
Complementary 1+2: Bladedancer
Complementary 1+3: Fairy
Complementary 2+3: Dryad
The base units are the following: A ranged unit (hunter), a proficient attacker (wolf) and a supporter (faun). Taking the Faun away, you get the dryad, which would also be supporting, but in a differrent kind of way. Also, those two represent masculinity and feminity, which I personally quite like. taking the hunter takes probably the strongest core-basic shooter, thus, I decided for not putting a shooter here, but a very fast flyer with no retaliation in its place. When the wolf is gone, you then lack the melee attack force, but you have the bladedancer, which is less offensive than the wolf, but more enduring.
Elite
Base 1: Pegasus (Ridden by an Elf)
Base 2: Druid
Base 3: Skinchanger
Complementary 1+2: Dendroid/Treant
Complementary 1+3: Faery Dragon
Complementary 2+3: Unicorn
On the elite base, the elves'd get a fast, fragile flyer, a caster (fragile as well) and a skinchanger, with at least 2 forms, of which 1 is elven and 1 something enduring, tankish (Bear, Boar, Elk, such...). On the complementaries it's the same game of role matching again - mostly. Take the skinchanger and you have even less a tank (and the core had not really one, mind that!), so you get - a treant, the tankiest sylvan/rampart/etc creature ever. take the elvish caster, it be replaced by good ol' fairy dragon (the small kind, so no largeness issues!), with a different spell choice, of course. Aslo, faery dragons got no range attack, druids got one. Finally without pegasus, you get the unicorn and that is the biggest role change here. The unicorn is no flyer anymore, but stronger than a pegasus, so I imagine it. Also it should blind enemies again, giving it more a role of "attack and stop the enemy in the middle field", where the pegasus more has the role of a quick harrasser.
Champion
Phoenix (Yes, I'd think they coudl be great back in the forest)
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted April 23, 2012 05:16 AM |
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Hmmm... this is interesting... can't resist the urge to try!
Let's see if I can't make a half-acceptable Inferno, shall we?
Inferno Core
Base 1: Tormented
Base 2: Cerberus
Base 3: Limus
Complementary 1+2: Imp
Complementary 1+3: Shadow Stalker
Complementary 2+3: Succubus
The explanation should be simple enough, Tormented are melee creatures who are just resilient to death in general and are actually rather swift considering their moderately tanky nature. Cerberus are swift strikers that attack at melee and can hit multiple targets (no bloody retaliation!) The Limus (A greek demon that ate souls) is a melee-casting creature that can use an ability to damage an adjacent living or spirit creature and restore its own health.
If you are missing out on the Limus, you get the imp with its always helpful high numbers and mana drain. If you opt out on the Cerberus, you are allowed to take the Shadow Stalker, which deals high damage and can move adjacent to any creature (as long as said creature isn't blocked). The Shadow Stalker is incredibly frail. Lastly, if you do not take the Tormented then the succubus opens up. She can perform ranged attacks that are fire aligned and seduce other core creatures.
Inferno elite
Base 1: Nightmare
Base 2: Maloch
Base 3: Pit Lord
Complementary 1+2: Gatekeeper
Complementary 1+3: Blade Fiend
Complementary 2+3: Efreeti
I was thinking that the ponies (of death, fear and mayhem) could return in their ungodly fast striking role as the burning Nightmare. Next is another creature from ancient lore (Judio-Christian) called the Maloch, it has one large claw, tanks and deals bleeding damage after any attack. The last base creature is a mage-type tank called the Pit Lord. It has the almost expected fireball in its spell slot, but also two demon summoning spells (Summon Succubus and Summon Imp) to keep your troops in good supply.
By dropping the Pit Lord, you get a swift, tanky creature with a reinforcements-like ability called the Gatekeeper. If you lose the Maloch then your bleeder-tank becomes an average-in-everything-but-damage Blade Fiend. The Blade Fiend has the Vorpal Blade ability and deals small splash damage to creatures adjacent to whatever it attacks in melee. Lastly, the old debate between Nightmare and Efreeti has returned, and isn't it glorious? The Efreeti is one of your only fliers, is quick, has good health and benefits from the omnipresent Fire Shield ability. It also deals fire damage (woo-hoo, magic attacks)
Inferno Champion
Devil
The Teleporting, Pitlord Summoning, burning monstrosity has returned*! Now with an infernal scythe and sword!
*Disclaimer: We swear that it is house-trained and will only eat the neighbors dogs if they are annoying.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 23, 2012 11:58 AM |
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@ Jiriki:
As far as Militia for Sentinels goes, you are right that I say that generaly hover between un- an upgraded creatures. However, I had thought that where I said that unlike Sentinels, Militia absorb damage through sheer numbers, I was clearly implying that Militia are weaker then their alternative but more than make up for that in their growth. Perhaps I need to be more clear in such matters.
As for Necropolis, I have absolutely no qualms about having two kinds of skeletons.
As far as your Sylvan faction goes, it is not too un-racial for me. However, I would, I think, place more Elves into the Core tier than in Elite. However, Sylvan is something which I have yet to give more thought. What I dislike is the Phoenix as the Champion, the shapeshifter and two fay-creatures(even if they are mutually exclusive). And the exclusion of the Unicorn of the Base Creatures, somewhere where my own traditionalism has surprised me.
@ Gnomes:
While mechanically/strategically we are not far appart. However I had rather some different ideas of how to fill out the Core roster. I do have quite some problems with your elite tier. The Efreet and Nightmares being mutually exclusive is the greatest one. Also, from what quick research I did, I am greatly questioning yours. Lastly, I was intending to keep the Pit Lord on the position as Champion, but I am starting to doubt that assumption.
Still I am far from ungratefull for both your ideas. Seeing how other people fill in the system, helps me shape my own ideas. Even if it is simply by shown me things I don't want. Also you have made it clear that I should justify my choice for the Champions, even if they are not affected (much) by this system.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 23, 2012 10:28 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 03:02, 24 Apr 2012.
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Well I can't say I'll be brilliant at this, so I'll just suggest that for the Haven Elite, the Gryphon and the Cavalry-man-thingy would probably be a reasonably decent either or, as would the Radiant Glory (if you have them) and the Monk (again, if you have them). No idea who to post in tank though, Crusader maybe, but what the other creature would be, unless you mark the Crusader down as an offensive tank and go for the Paladin as a Defensive one.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 24, 2012 12:27 PM |
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@ Matt:
I have run into similar problems trying to come up with a Elite tier for Haven. However, from what I read you seem stuck with obligatory roles, which should not be the case. You can make of it what you want, as long as you can make it work strategically. The tank roll for instance is not obligatory. If you look at my Stronghold proposal, the only unit "designed" to fit a tank roll is the Complementary Ogre, which is entirely optional.
The main problem I run into with Haven's elite tier is that I plan to, as you 'assumed/proposed', have the Cavalier and the Griffin as base creatures, which both are large creature, where I do not wish them to be mutually exlcusive. Coupled with a Champion unit, which are by default large, I have hit my max of large creatures. However writing this, I have the revalation that the problem is moot when switching large creature for a small one, the problem is the other way round.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 25, 2012 01:38 AM |
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The reason I stuck with the 'obligatory' roles was because you seemed to be sticking with the traditional factions. I'm not so tied down with my own faction because my 'Haven equivalent' faction is a mix of European and stereotyped Far Eastern elements, which gives my access to things like Samurai, the Shaolin and Taoism, and a whole bevy of mythological creatures with no basis in Christian culture.
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War-overlord
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Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 25, 2012 09:33 AM |
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I see. Whereas I intend to dump a lot of far eastern things into Sanctuary.
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admira
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Famous Hero
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posted April 26, 2012 07:19 PM |
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Edited by admira at 21:24, 26 Apr 2012.
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This is actually pretty interesting. I am impressed. It is not too complicated and very reasonable to implement. Do you mind if I put my faction based on this tier system? It might not sound like the same exact idea but tell me if you think it is reasonable.
The first thing came to me when I first played Heroes 6 is the very limiting tier system that causing boring factional skill and really standardized everything and make all the faction feels the same, uniform, with minor differences. I want my unique faction play back, but the tier system doesn't allow that.
The best example of this is Necromancy. That now just another healing spell with a tweak. If you look at the current Tier system at Heroes 6 I found that permanently reinforce the Necro army will prove to be heavily imbalanced. But this tier system might give a good chance to make the old unique play work.
So without further ado, Here is my rough sketch on the Necropolis using this system.
Necropolis
Necropolis Core:
Base 1: Skeleton Warrior
Base 2: Skeleton Mage (Melee Caster, magical damage, 2 Bullets shooter)
Base 3: Ghoul
Complementary 1+2: Dead Crawler (L)
Complementary 1+3: Ghost
Complementary 2+3: Undead Spider (L)
Explanation:
- Skeleton Warrior and Skeleton Mage are 30% weaker (statistically)
- The two base core: Skeleton Warrior or (and) Skeleton Mage are related to Necromancy, can be reinforced permanently post battle using the similar old necromancy (Heroes 3&5 style)
- Skeleton Warriors are normal melee attacker
- Skeleton Mages are able to have 2 range attack delivering magical damage. Thereafter they need to rely on magical melee damage. They have no melee penalty since they are not "true" shooter
- Ghoul is a relatively good tanker, better defense against magical damage. Similar to walking dead, carrying a butcher knife. Slow tanker
- Dead Crawler is the crawling ghoul-like creature with large claw with the ability flesh eater. gained 10% of damage to heal (have resurrection effect). However, the number of creatures falls under Dead Crawler that healing dead crawler considered permanent death and not be calculated for necromancy post battle.
- Ghosts are support caster, but the role solely on mana replenishing to Hero commanding them. They cast the ability "Mana Siphon" on the living creature's ally/enemy dead stack. 1 creature on the dead stack equal to 1 mana replenished however the mana converted from the dead corpse stack cannot exceed the number the existing of Ghost casting the "Mana Siphon". The number of mana absorbed from the corpse are considered permanent dead and doesn't count into living creatures' casualties to be resurrected by necromancy post battle.
- Undead Spiders are unique creatures, they have the ability to weave webs on an area, reducing damage dealt by physical range or slowing enemy movement
Necropolis Elite:
Base 1: Lich
Base 2: Vampire
Base 3: Bone Caster (melee caster)
Complementary 1+2: Mummy
Complementary 1+3: Phantom Knight (L)
Complementary 2+3: Fate Weaver (L)
- Lich is the only range attacker role with considerable damage in necropolis Army, able to cast some minor curses but its main role is Range attack (Magical Damage)
- Vampire is pretty much self explanatory here
- Phantom Knight is the main attacking force, the reason why you cannot have them it along with vampire. I always love death blow.
- Bone Caster similar to Ghost, but rather than replenishing mana, it resurrected random undead ally stack, except itself. I imagine it as headless undead on wizard robe that bears a lantern on his right hand and a magic staff on the other, it other body parts are fleshless and it has a flying skull as its head. Deliver a normal magic range attack, but the damage is significantly low compares to Lich.
- Mummy's basic attack has the aging effects (the ones left out by the absent of Bone Dragon) which reduced the effectiveness of the attacked stack.
- Fate Weaver is a Melee with magic damage type. However it can cast death coil (with 3 turn cooling down) by sacrificing 1 of the Skeleton of either type to launch the spell death coil, granting them the semi-range capability (similar to Cyclops goblin throw at ToTE but they can do this from any range (no need to have the skeleton stack at its side) to activate the ability)
Necropolis Champion:
Soul Reaper [L]
- the big bad hooded figure with large scythe. You got my point. (Ability TBA)
Faction Ability:
Necromancy:
- Each time after battle, the living casualties will be resurrected as either Skeleton Warrior or Skeleton Mage
- You can choose one of the two choice in spite the dwelling built
- Remember that the 2 base core skeletons are very weak compares to other faction's base core and supposedly have similar growth to all base creatures of other faction but Necromancy will make up for it.
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Vindicator
Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
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posted April 26, 2012 07:24 PM |
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I think this is a great system. Big . What faction were you planning to do next?
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