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| Thread: Games are becoming labor. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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OhforfSake
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posted April 21, 2012 11:54 AM |
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That would be acceptable, yes. However, I believe a lot of the professional scene would complain the game is too unpredictable, perhaps even random, and there's one thing worse than cookie cutter labor: losing a game before you even start it 
Well of course no one wants true randoms regarding every possible variable But randomization within certain limits.
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Adrius
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posted April 21, 2012 11:58 AM |
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Edited by Adrius at 12:01, 21 Apr 2012.
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Indeed, "randomness" spells bad with the competitive scene. I guess it becomes bad e-sport as well if it's so complex that it's hard to understand for those watching.
This is partly why fighting game tournaments are so awesome to watch even for newcomers, even though you may not know the advanced mechanics it's very visible who is kicking the other's ass hard.
@Forf: "Dynamic" is the fashion word of recent times for developers... world reacting to your actions and stuff. It's hard to do in grand games as Skyrim and the like though, since despite its NPCs being rather shallow and stuff there is still an amazing amount of coding below it all to make them work inside the world. If you add parameters to that which can change dynamically with the player's actions, the complexity skyrockets profoundly.
This is why Beth didn't implement destructable enviroments in Skyrim, for instance.
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xerox
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posted April 21, 2012 12:07 PM |
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I don't think you can make a comment about SC2 multiplayer and say its labour with playing it...
imo it is the greatest and most balanced RTS.
Though I would have loooooooved a fourth race. >.>
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Doomforge
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posted April 21, 2012 12:15 PM |
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You're free to love it. But you also need to be aware that should you want to achieve a decent level of gameplay in this game, you'd have to practice the same buildup and rush strategies hundreds or even thousands of times. It's not any different from any competitive-oriented RTS in this department (actually, it's worse).
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Adrius
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posted April 21, 2012 12:21 PM |
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Heard of R.U.S.E? It got released at the same time as Starcraft 2 so it became largely ignored completely, but it's apparently a very solid multiplayer game nonetheless.
Why I mention it is because of its trademark "Ruses", that let you trick your opponent by supplying fake information and hiding your units, for instance.
Might be worth checking into if you're bored of standard RTSs.
Oh and Supreme Commander, that one feels very different. The sheer scale of it makes new situations appear all the time for you.
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JoonasTo
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posted April 21, 2012 12:29 PM |
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SC2 was so full of itself that I didn't even bother getting it.
It's basically SC1 with new graphics and the same snowty UI from 98.
Loved the first one but the second doesn't bring anything new to the game.
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OhforfSake
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posted April 21, 2012 12:40 PM |
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted April 21, 2012 12:57 PM |
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Quote:
Without last hitting and denying hard you will lose every serious game. Unless you're playing babysitter of course but he still should deny, and deny hard. It may may not matter for average gamer, but a professional absolutely HAS to perfect it. And yes, it takes months, years even of hard labor to master that technique. Don't fool yourself, Dagoth I've spoken with competitive players from top clans. They all consider Dota fun, but also, a hard work. It took years for most of them to really get a grasp of clever picking, fantastic lane control... it's a hard work, couple hours per day.
Exactly what I pointed out earlier - to be good in a game, you need regular labor, and a lot of it.
There's no denying in league of legends.
And jungling and lane harass > last hitting. I see 2k elo players snow up their last hits all the time. The only machine like monstrous last hitters are in 2.5 k elo or something.
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Doomforge
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posted April 21, 2012 01:03 PM |
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Oh, I'm clueless about LoL probably should have clarified earlier I only mean Dota and Dota2 
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OhforfSake
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posted April 21, 2012 01:10 PM |
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I suppose one of the major problems of countering the labouring mechanisms, such as endless magic find runs in diablo 2, is that game companies does not allow players to use macros for automatization.
Often when one have any given objective in a game, you've to figure out how to perform this quest. However if the same mechanisms repeats, what was fun the first few times become dull, if repeated too often, to frequent. Heck even having to go out and slay wolves to get a tail once in a while can be fun enough, but when the programmers asks you to do the same task over and over, it's just a lazy game design.
In my opinion, when you've learned some method and you're getting tired of reapplying it, then it'd be much better if companies gave options for letting the task be done by the computer in stead of by you.
This does of course not apply equally well to all games, especially not games that's a measure of coordination and speed, but if you in heroes are up against a group of critters and the procedure is going to be
1) cast mass slow
2) shoot them down
then it's only fun the first few times, and it'd be neat to have the computer handle such tasks. Not that heroes did not offer an attempt to solve this, but the quick combat simulator is not something you can instruct in ways to battle, which kind of defeats the purpose.
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Doomforge
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posted April 21, 2012 01:26 PM |
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I thought about this myself - a "build base macro" for RTS games would indeed be a blessing. If you're building it the same way every game anyway, there's no reason you can't program the AI to do it for you. I also thought that players starting with basic construction buildings would be a good idea too.
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Adrius
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posted April 21, 2012 01:41 PM |
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Supreme Commander has base building templates. Build your base once, select it all, add to template.
Next time you play you simply select that template and place your entire base, and the builder will remember in what order everything was built and stuff.
Supreme Commander is absolutely filled with all these small, handy automatisation features designed to let you handle its massive scale.
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OhforfSake
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posted April 21, 2012 03:12 PM |
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As long as you don't get stuck in a specific template then that sounds really promising. Is it a game you made Adrius?
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Adrius
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posted April 21, 2012 03:19 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 15:31, 21 Apr 2012.
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Seraphim
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posted April 21, 2012 08:24 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 20:30, 21 Apr 2012.
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Doomforge
I think you got it wrong.
Games,multiplayer especially, are all about exploits. There were so in the past as they are now. In order to win,you must use the best tactic to succeed in MP games.
there is no fun if you have to use the same exploit 1000 times.
I hate it when that happens.I would like to play in the way I wish,not dictated by others.That is where things go wrong.I will certainly fail if I use something completely stupid.
That is why I like COOP games agaisnt AIs.
Someone mentioned SUPCOM.Well,that game had like lots of content and only 5% got ever used in online games.Everything was decided at the first 10 minutes.I hated it because of the income the game had.
Upgrade one Mass extractor,2 minutes,upgrade it again,3 minutes...
Not to mention the stupid drain based economy.At least it wold make sense for power,but not nass...
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted April 21, 2012 08:47 PM |
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I found Amnesia very entertaining and in the least 'labourful'.
Or are you guys targeting the only genre that does this?
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fauch
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posted April 21, 2012 09:44 PM |
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also think I know why I share this preference with the counter strike community, because I've tried new maps. The thing is, in counter strike there's no way to scout ahead on a map once you're actively playing it. It means you have no idea when you're safe, so you've to try to guard yourself of being shot from at least 3 directions at any time, unless you just decide to camp. But even if you decide to camp and maybe only have 1 direction to guard against, since you don't know the map yet, you don't know if you've chosen a spot no one ever comes by.
But if the new map is simple in design, you can quickly grasp all the connecting roads and the distance between them, so you know when and where you can expect to encounter enemies even far into the gameplay.
that's a good point, but there is a thing that I think is annoying about CS, it is the fact that you don't respawn if you get killed, and in that case, that means that on a new map, you are likely to get killed fast and play very little. but even on games where you can respawn immediately without any big penalty, people tend to play on the same maps all the time.
thinking about that, not having leaderboards and stats on some games might actually make them more fun. there are so many people who actually don't play for fun, but are just working to improve their stats. there are some who can't even accept the fact that some people may play better than them.
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Adrius
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posted April 22, 2012 08:13 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 20:16, 22 Apr 2012.
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@Seraphim: The someone was me.
You can set up the game so that early-game rushing is impossible if that's an issue for you.
The drain-based economy is awesome and makes sense. If you produce more resources than you use, you will be at +, if you are not, you're on -.
It's an extremely vital part of SupCom since you very often set factories to endlessly spawn units. If the resources simply drained all of a unit or building's requirements at once, you wouldn't be able to figure out how much more your economy can take.
Can't argue with the unit usage since I don't play online, but I find most units useful in different situations. There are seriously awesome mods out there too so if the vanilla gameplay sucks you can just mod the hell outta it.
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Zenofex
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posted April 22, 2012 08:28 PM |
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I've never played a MMORPG (and any non-browser-based MMO for that matter) exactly because of the grinding which seems to plague all games from the genre. Every title which relies heavily on multi-player has similar problem. A game has to be enjoyable first of all and a mindless repetition of one-to-several action(s) is anti-fun. This is one of the reasons why I detest the trend to add an on-line multi-player mode to almost every new game no matter if it needs it or not instead of improving its single-player content (of course I'm not talking about games like StarCraft or Heroes which owe much of their fame and depth to the MP). The MMO mania has to stop somewhere.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted April 22, 2012 09:15 PM |
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Grinding enables mentally bankrupt individuals to overcome one who is a tactical genius, due to the 'no skill required' basis. This makes for a great balancing factor between players, and it gives certain players that 'success' feeling.
Games like LoL and Dota, last hitting only 'contributes' to your success, (in higher elos it helps significantly) but if you have no skill to back it up, then it's still completely useless.
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