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| Thread: M&M: Creatures of Ashan |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 01:42 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 13:44, 29 Jun 2012.
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I completly agree with BIGJOCKERs idea.
Quote:
The H4 Crusader can not be compared to the H3 Swordsman or H5 Footman. It has more to do with the crusader/paladin unit from H1 and H2, which were top tier units. Swordsmen/Footmen were always pretty low in the line-up.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted June 29, 2012 02:05 PM |
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Quote:
The H4 Crusader can not be compared to the H3 Swordsman or H5 Footman. It has more to do with the crusader/paladin unit from H1 and H2, which were top tier units. Swordsmen/Footmen were always pretty low in the line-up.
Swordsmen and Footmen were (lower) middle tier in H3 & 5, where the Crusaders were upper (middle) tier in H1&2 and H4. So don't think the jump is that big.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 02:18 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 14:18, 29 Jun 2012.
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The Paladins/Crusaders were the strongest unit in H1 and H2. The second strongest in H4. In H1 and H2, there were 6 tiers and the Swordsman was like in H3, tier 4. For Asha's sake, in H1 and H2, the Swordsman and Crusader were two completly separate units!
The only thing they have in common, is that they wield a sword. And then its not even the same kind of sword. The Swordsman/Footman has used a shield in all games while the Crusader always had a big, two-handed sword.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted June 29, 2012 03:07 PM |
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@Xerox
But if you look at it from statistic the Pladins(H2) HP AT and Def are similar as the Crusaders (H3). Also they have similar/same names (Crusader/Crusader) and abilities (double strike)
I think This is enought similarities to say that "The heroes III Swordsman/crusader is the compination of Heroes II Swordsman/Master swordsman and Paladin/Crusader)
@avalon00x
They may be similar in skills but I see them personally as different creatures in different factions.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 03:16 PM |
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I think the H3 Swordsmen being a combination is a fair compromise.
I guess you could make it like this then:
H1 Crusader -> H2 Crusader -> H3 Swordsman/Crusader -> H4 Crusader
H1 Swordsman -> H2 Swordsman -> H3 Swordsman/Crusader -> H4 Crusader
-> H5 Footman -> H6 Sentinel
H1 Pikeman -> H2 Pikeman -> H3 Pikeman -> H4 Pikeman -> H6 Sentinel
I do not feel like the H4 Squire is related to any of them.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted June 29, 2012 03:18 PM |
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Quote:
The Paladins/Crusaders were the strongest unit in H1 and H2. The second strongest in H4. In H1 and H2, there were 6 tiers and the Swordsman was like in H3, tier 4. For Asha's sake, in H1 and H2, the Swordsman and Crusader were two completly separate units!
The only thing they have in common, is that they wield a sword. And then its not even the same kind of sword. The Swordsman/Footman has used a shield in all games while the Crusader always had a big, two-handed sword.
There are several things I want to say about this.
1: Tiers are relative and only applicable for comparison it their own game. H1&2 had 6 tiers, H3&5 had 7, H4 had 4 and H6 has 3. If you want to compare between games you have to let the absolutes of numbers go and look to the relatives of High, Middle and Low. And when doing so, you can say that they(sword units) were middle to high in every rendition.
2: The weapon is one of the high charactaristics to track the evolution of units, alongside lore implicit and explicit, which is what we are trying to do here. The units represent a very specific idea, namely Armoured Melee Infantry of high standing armed with a sword(Lords, Kights ect. I'm sure you catch the drift), as opposed to the less Armoured Melee Infantry conscripted/drafted/press-ganged commoner units with polearms.
3: Following up from point 2, whenever there are multiple units of this idea, the Devs felt the need to differentiate between full-fledged Knights and those units that are not. However when there is but one unit of this idea, that difference is made by the upgrade. This makes the Swordsman/Crusader lines inherantly intertwined.
4: In H6, the Devs felt the need to combine the two Haven infantry ideas into one. Hence the Sentinel>Preatorian, a Highly Armoured Infantry Unit armed with a Polearm. The Sentinels are volunteers, the Preatorian have earned a High Social standing and serve as Honour Guards. Which is why all two/three lines of evolution, that of the pikeman and the Swordsman/crusader end in the same unit in H6.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 03:21 PM |
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@dave Well i do agree that the slayer one might be a bit far fetched but look at the comparison of the preatorian and the Mountain guard.
and
The Weapon and the feathers on the helmet are close. But Both have high defence , low movement , low attack , decent health, Shielding abilities.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 03:31 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 15:31, 29 Jun 2012.
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they are to thematically different to be considered related imo
anyway, my conclusion is:
1. Sentinels are a combination of Pike- and Swordsmen/Footmen.
2. The H3 Crusader is a combination of the H1 and H2 Swordsmen and Crusaders. But the H5 Footman and H6 Sentinel are not related to the H1, H2 and H4 Crusader.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted June 29, 2012 03:43 PM |
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Quote:
I think the H3 Swordsmen being a combination is a fair compromise.
I guess you could make it like this then:
H1 Crusader -> H2 Crusader -> H3 Swordsman/Crusader -> H4 Crusader
H1 Swordsman -> H2 Swordsman -> H3 Swordsman/Crusader -> H4 Crusader
-> H5 Footman -> H6 Sentinel
H1 Pikeman -> H2 Pikeman -> H3 Pikeman -> H4 Pikeman -> H6 Sentinel
I do not feel like the H4 Squire is related to any of them.
Yes this is how I see it. From 90% . you cloud add the Pesant line that combines with the Pikeman one in Heroes V and then goes to sentinel.
This is the full "Heaven warrior tree" as I see it. I hope its understandable (blue doted lines are direct links whitout the Peasant line and H IV squire
Quote:
The only thing they have in common, is that they wield a sword. And then its not even the same kind of sword. The Swordsman/Footman has used a shield in all games while the Crusader always had a big, two-handed sword.
May I correct you on the two-hander topic
H3: Crusader
Sword and Shield
The swordsman was the one who lacked a shield actually
H4 crusader
Sword in one hand
So he actually looks more similar to the H3 swordsman(Fact I did not play H4 for a long time and never long enought to remember all the animations, so I cant say how the attack animation looked like)
@avalon00x Even if I have to say that this is true, (except for the fact that a Warhammer is not a Spear) I still cant imagine thet that woudl be the case (but thats only my opinion)
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 04:12 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 16:23, 29 Jun 2012.
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I really don't see the connection between peasants and pikemen.
In H5, it was never implied that those Peasants had anything to do with Pikemen. Otherwise, one of the upgrades would probably have been named Pikeman. In the older games, the Peasant was a completly separated creature from the Pikeman and they had nothing in common other than that they were humans.
I also don't agree with the connection between H4 Crusaders and H5 Footmen. They are very different. I'd say that the Crusader evolution ends with H4.
The H5 Footmen are a direct evolution of the H3 Swordsmen which are a combination of H1 and H2 Crusaders and Swordsmen. This is like writing Origin of the Species. 
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted June 29, 2012 04:35 PM |
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For the record, I fully agree with Dave-Jame's schematic above.
@Xerox:
The reason why the Pikemen-line is intertwined with the Brute and the Conscript is because they represent the same kind of warrior. Namely the conscripted infantry of low social standing, armed with a polearm.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted June 29, 2012 05:00 PM |
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Just a note War-Overlord
I rather not include the peasants into the scheme, I just did it for "all to be happy"
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted June 29, 2012 05:06 PM |
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I am glad you did though. It makes it clear how interwoven these evolutionary lines are.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted June 29, 2012 05:30 PM |
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Well to be honest, I think this was the worst one.. and any other will be much easier
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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DarkLord
Supreme Hero
Fear me..
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posted June 29, 2012 05:42 PM |
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Edited by DarkLord at 17:51, 29 Jun 2012.
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ok i strongly disagree to put
Sentinel HoMM6 and Footman HoMM5
into one poll..
they are different units in Ashan
which is somehow proved in Duel of Champions
  
Also they have different weapons - Sword - Pike/Javelin
(they both do have a shield though)
And they have different abilities
So summing it up
I would suggest NOT to put them in one poll of evolution
Who is with me???
@ Dave Jame
Here is HoMM4 Crusader anumation..
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted June 29, 2012 06:00 PM |
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@DarkLord
We already discused if we want to stick to "Ashan" In that case you are right, or we sitck to Heroes Only and in that case you should accept the diagrame that has been created on the base of the discusion.
It is as I sayied "Not all Ashan games are part of Heroes, and not all heroes games are set in Ashan"
I woudl like you to clearly say what do you want, since this is your topic, And then we can continue in the discussion
Do you want to show how the creatures style/Look etc. developed on Ashan or in the Heroes Games? Because both is not posible.
and btw. Thank you for the animation. So Xerox as I see it the H4 crusader uses his sword Single-handed.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 06:36 PM |
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I still think that the H4 Crusader is the final step in the evolution of the Crusader from H1.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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DarkLord
Supreme Hero
Fear me..
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posted June 29, 2012 08:31 PM |
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@ Dave
well i just want to find the "optimal" way of doing this thread
thats why i am asking for opinions of others,
i dont want to go like "its my thread and i do it my way"
rather i would prefer to "reflect opinion of majority" or "the closest to correct way, based on several factors"
my suggestion at the moment is to take
Ashan creatures as the base,
and then create the line of evolution from previous HoMM games
would say the "legacy" of them..
what you guys think?
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Valen-Teen
Famous Hero
UFOlolOgist
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posted June 29, 2012 08:49 PM |
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My point: Ashan creatures - HV, HVI, Dark Messiah, CoH & DoC.
The evolution lines are changing of images only. So I think we can discuss without them.
If you want, just create "Evolution of HoMM creatures" thread. It will be nice and won't make us negative.
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Our hopes for Heroes VIII!
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DarkLord
Supreme Hero
Fear me..
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posted June 29, 2012 08:59 PM |
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Edited by DarkLord at 21:09, 29 Jun 2012.
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if i include Dark Mesiiah , CoH , DoC
may be a bit chaotic??
i thought would be better to stick to HoMM
p.s. but i can add the artworks of them..?
OR
i can create another thread
call it HOMM evolution
and dedicate this one ONLY to Ashan creatures...
what u guys think?
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