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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: New Faction&Town Concept
Thread: New Faction&Town Concept This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
Jiriki9
Jiriki9


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Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted July 15, 2012 01:59 PM
Edited by Jiriki9 at 16:33, 15 Jul 2012.

Seems fortress is much-wished for. Which not goes against my plans But I'll wait for a couple more voices.

EDIT: and why cynical, avi?

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Vindicator
Vindicator


Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
posted July 15, 2012 06:35 PM

Keep, Free Cities
____________

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted July 15, 2012 07:58 PM

Insect societies just doesn't sound that interesting to me.
It's up to you to prove me wrong

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted July 15, 2012 09:06 PM

Free Cities and either Fortress or Factory (Technopolis).

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hobo2
hobo2


Promising
Known Hero
posted July 16, 2012 08:23 AM

Quote:
Insect societies just doesn't sound that interesting to me.
It's up to you to prove me wrong


Ideally, the game is Heroes of Might and Magic, with the emphasis being on Might and Magic. Insect people of one flavor or another have been in pretty much every game of Might & Magic. You have the Wasp Warriors of M&M8, the Hell Hornets of Xeen, the Death Locusts of M&M3, and so on.

And to add to that, there are also the Sprites and Kreegans, who are described as being insectile. The Kreegans in particular, arrive in giant hive ships and have a hive queen running each one. Running around the hive is a high level event in both MM6 and 7 (the two best Might and Magics, in my opinion).

However, I'm not actually sold on the districts thing. Really seems like it would lead to the following problems:

Building up towns gives you the ability to grab troops of different levels from different factions, which is going to put a big pressure on you to make a "best of" army. This may actually reduce army diversity in that you'll always be able to use the level 3 creatures of whatever faction has the best level 3 creatures (or if that's incompatible with your starting faction, whoever has the second best).

Conversely, an already-built city is going to have its districts assigned, and since there are about 240 different ways you could arrange the districts, the chances of a city you overran being any use to you at all is vanishingly low.

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted July 16, 2012 08:54 AM
Edited by Avirosb at 08:54, 16 Jul 2012.

Huh, I thought the emphasis was on Heroes, Heroes being a spin-off centered more around conventional fantasy and mythology.
I'm all for the occasional con-rit or killer mantis but an entire faction of oversized insects just doesn't sound particulary imaginative.

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


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posted July 16, 2012 09:51 AM
Edited by Jiriki9 at 09:51, 16 Jul 2012.

Quote:
Building up towns gives you the ability to grab troops of different levels from different factions, which is going to put a big pressure on you to make a "best of" army. This may actually reduce army diversity in that you'll always be able to use the level 3 creatures of whatever faction has the best level 3 creatures (or if that's incompatible with your starting faction, whoever has the second best).

I do not quite see your point...you can only get the highest level (Champion, which would be 4, btw) in level 3 Districts and there is NO way at all to get more than 1 L3 district per town. And instead of a "best of" army I hope for the creatures being so that you create synergic armies of different synergies


Quote:
Conversely, an already-built city is going to have its districts assigned, and since there are about 240 different ways you could arrange the districts, the chances of a city you overran being any use to you at all is vanishingly low.

Your starting word is similar the key: Conversion! It is possible to converse districts, as long as you follow the rules of district building (requirements and excluding districts will be the main issues here). If you meet a town controversial to your needs you are also able to convert all districts at once, taking more time, but serving yoiur needs as well.

Quote:
Huh, I thought the emphasis was on Heroes, Heroes being a spin-off centered more around conventional fantasy and mythology.
I'm all for the occasional con-rit or killer mantis but an entire faction of oversized insects just doesn't sound particulary imaginative.

Who spoke of an entire faction of oversized insects? I said Arthropods!
also, there will would definitely be a swarm unit with non-oversized insects

Right now, Free Cities are rather wished for, as well as Fortress.
I think I'll do them, and hope my visions won't be too contrary to yours. I melted tiny bits of some other fations in.

Fortress:
-Halfling (Common, ranged)
-Gargoyle (Core, Flyer)
-Defender (Core, Melee)
-Ironheart (Elite, Melee)
-Elder (Elite, Caster)
-some mighty Giant

Fortress goes for enduring units mainly, and rather slow ones with only one Flyer and one ranged unit, both rather weak (common&core).
...I still have 3 dwarves, which may be a bit much...

Free Cities:
-Juggler (Common, Ranged)
-Illusionist (Core, Caster/Special)
-Fencer (Core, Melee)
-Pegasus Rider(Knight)? (Elite, Flyer)
-Musketeer (Elite, Ranged)
-Dragon Rider? (Champion, Flyer)

Stylewise, the Free Cities would be close to rennaissance Europe, but with some asian aspects as well (free cities of the east, ain't they?) Note that the Illusionist is a gnome! Notable in gameplay is their weak defense and low HP. You get no real damage-taker, which makes this faction one with which it may be wise to combine with the right terrain, or another faction, to get the enduranc you need.

Here, you also see that Fortress and Free Cities are, though not setting-wise, a bit of "oppositional" gameplaywise: Fortress is the hard endurer, while the Free Cities offer you flexible, quick battle-styles.

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


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the reckoning is at hand
posted July 16, 2012 10:19 AM

Fortress and Free Cities looks good,but I would suggest to add a cougar in Free Cities line-up to have less humanoids,it could fit the theme.Or you could use cougar for mountain terrain.

The fortress champion will be a elemental based giant(some kind of fire or ice giant)?Or it will be a living giant?


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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


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Altar Dweller
posted July 16, 2012 10:39 AM

I had in mind to have beasts rather in the terrains than the factions...

for the giant. Unsure yet, unsure. Especially since I'm not sure for the ACademy Champion...

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hobo2
hobo2


Promising
Known Hero
posted July 16, 2012 10:49 AM

Quote:

I do not quite see your point...you can only get the highest level (Champion, which would be 4, btw) in level 3 Districts and there is NO way at all to get more than 1 L3 district per town. And instead of a "best of" army I hope for the creatures being so that you create synergic armies of different synergies


Right. You aren't going to be getting more than one Champion unit. You'll be pretty much forced to use Tier 1 creatures and Tier 2 creatures and tier 3 creatures and tier 4 creatures. That's fine. The thing is that I'm pretty sure that some faction or another is going to have the best Tier 4 creature, and you're going to make that one all the time. Similarly, some faction is going to have the best Tier 2 creatures, and you're going to build that district. All the time.

I figure there's going to only be about 3 or 4 armies that people really use based on which districts can work together ("those elven archers are sweet, but if I accept the second-best units from that tier I can still get Black Dragons"). Which for a game with 8 factions and 960 possible development paths, that's pretty weak. Quite often more theoretical choice is less real choice, and what you're describing sounds like exactly such a scenario.


Quote:
Your starting word is similar the key: Conversion! It is possible to converse districts, as long as you follow the rules of district building (requirements and excluding districts will be the main issues here). If you meet a town controversial to your needs you are also able to convert all districts at once, taking more time, but serving yoiur needs as well.


Sigh. If we've learned anything from Heroes VI, it should have been that Conversion is highly problematic and steamrolls away choice. If you can convert a city to producing more of the units you are using instead of making more units that you aren't using, you're going to do that.

Imagine if Inferno players in Heroes VI were allowed to trade out their Breeders and Tormentors for Arch Liches and Vampire Lords or Griffins and Glories. They'd do that in a heart beat. Or imagine if Ramparts players in Heroes 3 were allowed to trade their Dwarves straight across for Marksmen. Again, it's a no-brainer. Too much customization of army lists just leads to degenerate strategies and the vast majority of units being chucked onto the wood pile.

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


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Altar Dweller
posted July 17, 2012 06:40 PM
Edited by Jiriki9 at 18:41, 17 Jul 2012.

First of all, since it's nto the first time I recognize this, your writing-style seems a bit offensive to me, though you're definitely not the only (or worst! not by far!!!) on HC, I think it would contribute to discussing if you stayed more factual^^ No offense, just my opinion!

Quote:
Right. You aren't going to be getting more than one Champion unit. You'll be pretty much forced to use Tier 1 creatures and Tier 2 creatures and tier 3 creatures and tier 4 creatures. That's fine. The thing is that I'm pretty sure that some faction or another is going to have the best Tier 4 creature, and you're going to make that one all the time. Similarly, some faction is going to have the best Tier 2 creatures, and you're going to build that district. All the time.

I figure there's going to only be about 3 or 4 armies that people really use based on which districts can work together ("those elven archers are sweet, but if I accept the second-best units from that tier I can still get Black Dragons"). Which for a game with 8 factions and 960 possible development paths, that's pretty weak. Quite often more theoretical choice is less real choice, and what you're describing sounds like exactly such a scenario.


^^I still think that the synergies would eliminate or at least drastically reduce that point. Also, it is a balance issue and I think those CAN be solved. The system on champions and such is not 100%ly done so I cannot ive examples npw but I'll try later!!!
One main thing, yet: The synergic units (cross-faction) would probably be a tiny bit better - but to get them you'd have to go for very few high-level units...

Quote:
Too much customization of army lists just leads to degenerate strategies and the vast majority of units being chucked onto the wood pile.

I simply disagree on this. I think this does not apply when there are rather strict rules of combination, as are here.

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Vindicator
Vindicator


Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
posted July 17, 2012 09:02 PM

Like the sound of the Free Cities so far, look great.

What's an Ironheart, though? And I'm not really sure about the giant for Fortress either... Not sure what to replace it with, though...
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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


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Altar Dweller
posted July 18, 2012 07:36 AM

Thanks.

An Ironguard is a heavily armed dwarf, typical full-armour dwarven warrior...

for the giant:
Quote:
-Fortress: Dwarves, Mountain Giants

So Giant will definitely be in fortress somehow.

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hobo2
hobo2


Promising
Known Hero
posted July 18, 2012 10:53 AM

Quote:
I still think that the synergies would eliminate or at least drastically reduce that point


How?

The way you've set it up is like unto Heroes VI, where failing to convert each and every city to build precisely the stuff you have in your main army makes your endgame army smaller in exchange for having troops that you can't put in your end game army because of stack limits. We've already seen how that works out in Heroes VI: there are exactly five army compositions that people actually use in their end game armies.

The real difference you're bringing in is that instead of having to take full army lists as a take-it-or-leave-it proposition, you are allowed to dumpster dive through the lists and take your favorite faction's offering for each tier; and each tier is only a pair of monsters or even a single unit in the case of champions. So while in Heroes VI you're stuck with Lamassu if you're playing the otherwise stellar Necropolis, in your districts version you'd just be able to swap out Lamassu for whatever happened to be best at that tier (let's say Minotaur Kings).

The only incentive you have to not simply take the absolute all-stars for each tier every single time is that you have some factions that won't work with other factions. If the best Champion is Black Dragons and the best tier 3 is the Archmage and Genie, then you'll have to choose whether you want the best tier 3 or the best tier 4 in your army. However, if the top of three tiers will work together the game again becomes degenerate with one obviously superior army. The best you could do is if there were two pairs of top unit tiers that couldn't be mixed (say the best Tier 1 couldn't work with the best Tier 2 and the best Tier 3 couldn't work with the best Tier 4, or 1&3, 2&4 or whatever). That gives you two choices of two to make your allstar army - and that's only 4 possibilities.

That's 25% less real choices in army composition than is granted even by Heroes VI, and I think we can all agree that Heroes VI doesn't have nearly enough late-game army content.

I mean, there are things that you could do to spice up army selection, but the basic system you're proposing is tilted strongly in favor of people gravitating towards 1-4 optimal armies, regardless of the number of nominal factions you include in the game. And that's not enough.

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


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Altar Dweller
posted July 18, 2012 11:12 AM

Quote:
So while in Heroes VI you're stuck with Lamassu if you're playing the otherwise stellar Necropolis, in your districts version you'd just be able to swap out Lamassu for whatever happened to be best at that tier (let's say Minotaur Kings).



You are not able to do that in this system^^ you see for example if lamassu WAS a necropolis unit (which it won't be!!!) You could NOT simply switch it away, because then you'd also switch away the necro champion, probably. The point is that you go for whole districts, not for single units.

Quote:
If the best Champion is Black Dragons and the best tier 3 is the Archmage and Genie, then you'll have to choose whether you want the best tier 3 or the best tier 4 in your army. However, if the top of three tiers will work together the game again becomes degenerate with one obviously superior army. The best you could do is if there were two pairs of top unit tiers that couldn't be mixed (say the best Tier 1 couldn't work with the best Tier 2 and the best Tier 3 couldn't work with the best Tier 4, or 1&3, 2&4 or whatever). That gives you two choices of two to make your allstar army - and that's only 4 possibilities.

And there comes the synergy: There is no best unit of a tier^^ Some units, like black dragons, may be awesome on themselves, but if others are better backed-up, the single outstanding fighters won't beat them. The sum is (or shall be, at least) more than its parts. Additionally I think if done well, there can rather be "good against" then "good" choices. For example if you suppose your enemy has no or few ranged units you'll have to consider this in planning your line-up. Or if the enemy has mostly slow units, you will probably go for ranged units and/or strike-and-return-harrassers. And so on.

anyway, thanks for the harsh criticism, because that gets me thinking about this more

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


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posted July 18, 2012 11:54 AM

Question to all: With whom shall Sylvan be incomparable, besides Dungeon and Necropolis? Fortress or Inferno? OR shall Dugneon and Sylvan be combionable?

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hobo2
hobo2


Promising
Known Hero
posted July 18, 2012 12:48 PM

Quote:
And there comes the synergy: There is no best unit of a tier


That seems... unlikely. Specifically that hasn't been true of any Heroes game ever made. You can see it most clearly in Heroes IV, where the game specifically gives you a simple binary choice between units at each tier: and the result is that you do not in fact choose Nagas over Genies, because Genies are better and that's that.

If you could cherry pick all your unit categories in Heroes 3, you would. And there wouldn't be a whole lot of things to choose from at each tier. At Tier 2 you might select the Marksman and you might select the Harpy Hag, but you sure as heck aren't going to select the Zombie or even the Battle Dwarf. At tier three you wouldn't take the Orc Chief over the Grand Elf. At tier 4 you wouldn't take Horned Demons over Vampire lords. And so on.

A Heroes faction generally speaking forces you to take the good with the bad. You only mix-n-match in games before Heroes VI when you happen to get multiple cities early enough that you can build up a full army's compliment of good units from two or more factions - and that is a very haphazard scenario where you are only cherry picking from a couple lists rather than what you're talking about, which is to let people cherry pick from the full game's list every time they pick up the game.

Basically, take a good hard look at why armies lack much diversity in Heroes VI and Heroes IV. What you are talking about is to combine the exclusive branching of IV with the full conversion model of VI into something that would lead inevitably to people abandoning very large swathes of the unit list for precisely the reason that they ignore so many units in Heroes IV and Heroes VI.

----

That being said, you can create a bunch of viable army builds out of games that offer longer lists of troop choices. It just doesn't emerge organically from the choice itself. A good example of that is King's Bounty Crossworlds. You can take pretty much whatever units you want to, but there are skill and spell effects as well as inter-unit synergy that make you gravitate towards certain troop compositions.

For example: there are companion and equipment setups that give very large bonuses to female troops, which encourages you to make an army out of the otherwise unthinkable group of fairies, demonesses, and lizard mages. Or there are Dwarven Engineers, who give very large bonuses to Droids in your army, encouraging you to take either both Droids and Engineers or neither. There are skills and spells you can have that favor archery or melee units. Paladins are more effective at raising your troops from the dead than Rune Mages are, but Rune Mages can raise Dragons and Demons and Paladins can't. And so on. But these are emergent properties from the unit buffs, not from the unit selection mechanics.

The only thing that KB does to encourage army diversity in unit selection mechanics is Leadership Caps. This is a big one, because it means that you are allowed to have more creatures in your stacks when those creatures are individually less powerful. This keeps Sprites a valid tactic over dragons even into the late game (something that is not really true in, for example, Heroes IV).

But if you want people to be able to cherry pick a bunch of units from a bunch of factions, then you don't have "factions". You have "actual armies", which are the different armies that you'll rationally end up with when you cherry pick units that synergize together. So you might have a "Mech List" that includes Gremlin Meisters, Dwarf Engineers, Golems, Droids, and Iron Dragons. You use that list because the Meisters and Engineers can repair inanimate troops, so you load up with inanimate troops. Whether that is nominally troops from two factions, three, or four doesn't make any real difference - functionally it is just one army because you aren't going to field Droids and Iron Dragons without Gremlin Meisters to boost them.

Or maybe you have an army where you are using the undead boosters, so you want all undead critters. So obviously you cherry pick the best undead. It doesn't make any real difference whether Mummies and Pirate Ghosts nominally come from the Temple and the Hideout rather than the Necropolis, because functionally they are in the Necromancer army regardless. Any Necromancer player is going to cherry pick districts that happen to give them access to the best undead monsters, regardless of the nominal factional allegiance.

So take a step back: what actual armies do you envision people fielding? And within that context, how does the district tetris minigame facilitate that?

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


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posted July 19, 2012 07:43 PM

I do understand your point, for a while by now. I just think that one could do this without hitting your problems so badly. Besides, of course this is just an idea, and, as EVERYTHING in the Altar, has none or near-to-none impact to anything that will be ever published. I just like to think it through (at least partly) Nevertheless, as mentioned, I think it COULD be done and I'll try to give a glimpse here, on how. Of course I don't want an H4, with obvious choices, but I allways thought this could have been embettered and don't think it's a flaw that choice itself has...

@hobo: Btw - are you planning to continue your H7 proposal? Or did you consider it finished?

Right now, I'm thinking about which factions hsould not be able to work with each other and I'm taking a lore-wise attempt mostly. I may throw many units around, after the recent discussion, btw. Now, this is what i think now:

Academy: Dungeon?, Fortress?, Necropolis?, Stronghold, Sylvan?, Temple?
Dungeon: Academy?, Fortress?, Free City?, Haven?, Stronghold?, Sylvan, Temple?
Fortress: Academy?, Dungeon?, Free City?, Inferno?, Necropolis?, Stronghold, Sylvan?, Temple?
Free City: Dungeon?, Fortress?, Haven, Inferno?, Stronghold?, Sylvan?, Temple?
Haven: Free City, Inferno, Necropolis
Inferno: Fortress?, Free City?, Haven, Stronghold?, Sylvan?, Temple?
Necropolis: Academy?, Fortress?, Free City?, Haven, Stronghold?, Sylvan, Temple?
Stronghold: Academy, Dungeon?, Fortress, Free City?, Haven?, Inferno?, Necropolis?, Sylvan?, Temple?
Sylvan: Academy?, Dungeon, Fortress?, Free City?, Inferno?, Necropolis, Stronghold?, Temple?
Temple: Academ?y, Dungeon?, Fortress?, Free City?, Haven?, Inferno?, Necropolis?, Stronghold?

any ideas?

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hobo2
hobo2


Promising
Known Hero
posted July 19, 2012 09:01 PM

Quote:
Right now, I'm thinking about which factions hsould not be able to work with each other and I'm taking a lore-wise attempt mostly. I may throw many units around, after the recent discussion, btw.


Here's my thought: rather than working out what factions don't work together, you should work out what 3 and 4 faction combos you want to have available. The actual armies are going to by definition be defined by what factions you can stick together. If you want people to play around with Lich/Mummy synergy, then whatever faction the Mummy is in has to be able to work with whatever the faction the Lich is in. And so on.

Really what you should do is to draw up a list of all the alliances that you want to support lore-wise. If the Infernalists show up alone or not at all because they are the big villains of the piece, then they should appear on the potential alliance tray of none of the other factions. If, on the other hand, you're doing a Succession Wars scenario, then all the "evil" factions should be able to ally and all the "good" factions should be able to ally.

Quote:

@hobo: Btw - are you planning to continue your H7 proposal? Or did you consider it finished?


The only real feedback I got was people complaining that, for example, Libyan mythological monsters from Libya-like terrain with a close analog of a real Libyan historical culture was "too slapped together" rather than say, overly focused. That was incredibly demotivating to me. Check it yourself if you want, the last post is someone telling me haughtily that Naga and Ogres don't exist in Japanese mythology. I mean, I could point out how completely ridiculous that statement is and explain how an Ao Oni is in fact an Ogre and that the D&D Ogre Magi is quite obviously a pull from Japanese mythology, but why?

As I understand it, the point of the Altar is to have discussions about game design or pie in the sky musings about things that would be cool. Having people tell me that themes don't exist because they've personally never looked into East Asian or North African culture is neither of those things.

If you want to use any number of ideas from that thought experiment, you are welcome to.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted July 20, 2012 11:15 AM
Edited by MattII at 10:53, 22 Jul 2012.

Quote:
Right now, I'm thinking about which factions hsould not be able to work with each other and I'm taking a lore-wise attempt mostly.
So if you have a level 1 district of one town you can build a level 2 district of an allied town rather than having to stick to the same town type as the level 1 district was of?

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