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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Index of Erm Help and Discussion thread
Thread: Index of Erm Help and Discussion thread This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT»
Bersy
Bersy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 18, 2012 11:52 PM

Nice list, thanks.

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 19, 2012 12:56 AM

Congratulations on getting almost as many stars as you deserve for the Era work, finally!  I don't mean to insult the moderators and I understand their analysis takes time, but since I don't think there could have been too many, I must say "almost".  Still, it seems there is some justice in the universe.

(Salamandre could have gotten another one for his Era mods also - maybe he did and I didn't notice.  Others too, of course, but perhaps the lesson about justice is that it takes time.)

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OxFEA
OxFEA


Promising
Famous Hero
feanor on DF2.ru
posted July 19, 2012 01:11 AM

Quote:


I am sure others, such as Bersy and OxFea and Solitaire345 have better, more complete lists.


No, every time when I need UN:C address I'm searching it from scratch

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 19, 2012 01:40 AM

I guess the truer statement would be:

"I am sure others, such as Bersy and OxFea and Solitaire345, could make better, more complete lists."

(In fact my list mainly comes from you, with contributions by Bersy and Solitaire345.  I don't think there is a modder at this site who has not benefited from your help.)

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master_learn
master_learn


Legendary Hero
walking to the library
posted July 19, 2012 08:25 AM
Edited by master_learn at 08:30, 19 Jul 2012.

@Bersy,the list is going to grow-today a little,tomorrow too-so becoming more useful with time.

Even OxFea posted here-I think its a lucky sign for me-in ERM Help and discussion he posted many of the UN:C commands I am going to bring here.

Quote:
every time when I need UN:C address I'm searching it from scratch


I think this have direct connection with the working condition(compatability) of the adresses,which have to be checked every time?
____________
"They made a Heroes V? "-OhforfSake

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 19, 2012 10:08 AM

There was no analysis at all, from 3 "on paper" moderators, the forum has only one left, Cepheus and Ste are gone. As Angelito visits the forum once in two weeks, there is some wait between. Not a drama though, forum keeps civilized and sooner or later fixes also come.

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majaczek
majaczek


Supreme Hero
Work at Magic Dimmension
posted July 19, 2012 01:29 PM

About Q9

there are at least 3 ways to remove the unwanted feature of real commanders not accepting stack experience

1) my unfinished work with abusing some ERM bugs. It generally partly disable commander system so you were able to use monster commander instead real one and keep most commander game mechanics. The problem is all in-battle features of commander is gone so you have redone it via ERM including effects of some commander artifacts. I would have to work at least week more to make some use for features my trick disabled not intentionally. Also in my work death of commander was not recorded in game mechanics (it died like normal summon but hero data didn't noticed his commander is gone). The only pro is it a single script with no UN:C commands. The mostly con is it requires horribly much of redundant code to replace features i still want have, so it is mostly shame on me. Because there are much better solutions availible and I hate my code I wont share itself until somebody asks me how to have at least 2 commander stacks on one side which work reasonably (standard CO support allows one real commander on one side but once my system bypasses the need for inbattle commander at all the byproduct is you can have any amount of simulated commanders) but still I warn my code is highly incomplete and show only elemental  features. It's abandoned once Bersy suggested a better way to do it.

2) Bersy in ERA thread posted bunch of values of min. Commander MonID and max ones with runtime adresses. So all credits for Bersy. Once values are changed that max is lower than min, particular commander ability is disabled in game and there are about 50 separate features where most are interface or stack experience related. Once one of values turned to be commander offset (changing to 255 crashes the game once battle changing  to 0 makes castle creatures represent real commander inbattle - yeah I was shocked when during trial and error it happened a cavalier commander), i suggest changing only max values. There have the list to be revised what modder want in or out but there is basically a list to modify and compile to bin format using binmagic.

3) once runtime adresses are same as UN:C adresses the list can be easily changed to bunch of UN:C codes, and even executed multiple times during runtime (so it can be disabled/changed only in moments the scripter wants). It surely would work on WoG TE and higher, but it was untested on 3.58f (it may work - if not the adresses are different there).

Eventually it may work as modified exe but once runtime adresses are different than exe ones they have to be calculated (eg. Using binmagic secondary features) and THEN hexedited.

It was shame that I didn't revised the list yet, but once you link to part of discussion involved, modders may figure themselves. I essentially checked it works but I didn't filtered the list of about 100 adresses (fixme: there was about 50 of them?) to only include ones related to stack experience. Still some of more exotic SE features like guards and summoning may not work but most basic ones work according to my tests.

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Bersy
Bersy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 19, 2012 04:10 PM

Quote:
Congratulations on getting almost as many stars as you deserve for the Era work, finally!

Thank you. And though I appreciate those records in database visible as red starts, they do not matter. I've already lost a few accounts with stars here because of not working password restoration service.

But if we talk about justice, Salamandre remembered me about King In Yellow mod-map. May we convert it into mod and add to the main archive?

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master_learn
master_learn


Legendary Hero
walking to the library
posted July 19, 2012 04:35 PM

@majaczek,thank you for your detailed answer.
No reason to hate your code,no matter complete or incomplete it is.
As I understand it,we learn new things in time,which make us better in what we do and in the next case we work better than before.
____________
"They made a Heroes V? "-OhforfSake

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 19, 2012 04:38 PM

Quote:
Salamandre reminded me about The King In Yellow mod-map. May we convert it into mod and add to the main archive?


That is the best offer I have had today (actually, in a few years).  The latest version is at https://www.box.com/s/877639740775a758a20f -it does not match the high level of the other mods, especially in graphics, but it was a native Era 2 development, not a WoG 3.58f conversion.  (master_learn and Bethel made some valuable suggestions during the development, to add balance, which I am weak at.)

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Bersy
Bersy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 19, 2012 05:22 PM

I'm really sorry for offtop, but can map "Friends and Foes" be played in HotSeat: 2 humans against 2 AI?

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 19, 2012 06:30 PM

Yes, that is how F&F was intended to be played.  I like to play that way with my nephews and nieces.

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master_learn
master_learn


Legendary Hero
walking to the library
posted July 20, 2012 09:25 PM

JimV,what would you say about question number 6?

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solitaire345
solitaire345


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 20, 2012 10:51 PM

I'm not sure what can be done, but it might be possible to hack executable at the location, where memory for map levels is allocated, to allocate more memory and add code for a currently unused object ID to work like subterranean gate, but send player to level 2 instead of 1. It could be very troublesome to teach AI to use this building and plan its path with sense. Also it will probably be impossible to fix editor to work with extra levels (though the one, developed by HotA team, might be made compatible).


You can also store your third level in temporary memory and replace this whenever third level is needed to be displayed, though this will cause much lag when transferring between levels and it will have bugs that would likely be impossible to fix in certain cases (like some critical objects sent to temporary storage and wiped out of current game) so no one should do this without knowing exactly what he's doing.
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 20, 2012 11:05 PM

I don't know, but would not be surprised if some Russian genius has done it.

In a minor way, something like that was done in "300 Spartans".  There is a "Quest Area", about 36x39 squares, in the upper left corner of the map, which was redrawn using terrain generation (TR commands) for different quests - with the ability to go back to some of the quests more than once.  So for the Labyrinth Quest it showed a Labyrinth, for the Crystal Quest it showed Crystal Land, for the Magic Flute Quest it showed an Enchanted Forest, et cetera.  So terrain generation could be used to simulate another level, by drawing it on the fly.  In the "300" method, most of the quest maps were drawn in test maps, and then the data was scanned by a "Scanner" script so it could be rapidly replotted by a "Plotter" script.  The bigger the region, the more data would have to be stored, and the longer the plotting would take (36x39 happens in the blink of an eye).  I am not sure what the practical limit of that method would be, but I feel confident that a couple 128x128 regions could be done.  This would require some custom scripting.

The other solution, of course is a 256x256 map, which could be divided into eight 128x128 regions (4 per level), which could then be considered different levels (with monoliths providing transportation between levels), and of course the map-maker might decide to use only some of them to save work.  That also poses some difficulties, but we know it can be done.

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majaczek
majaczek


Supreme Hero
Work at Magic Dimmension
posted July 20, 2012 11:15 PM
Edited by majaczek at 23:30, 20 Jul 2012.

@master_learn
I hate  my code because it's ugly, reduntand and depends on wog buggy behaviour which could be changed (a bug I  assert that would occur being "fixed").
Once there are elegant solution, I decided to never finish it. The most ugly part of approach is my trick disables one huge part of commander mechanics including details I wanted to keep. That means a quater of already implemented CO mechanics have yet  to be rewritten as a script.

so I meant I would never complete it because it looks horrible, not that I would hate the code because it's incomplete. I feel publishing officially the code is like laying bear trap in the garden, but I wont resist to send it privately if person finds any reason for my approach beeing better than a few nice UN:C (ones inluding complex engine limitation such as one commander stack at a side).
Still I won't help the person to complete it, and I'm not really going to abandon my modproject, but I would use nice bin file so it would be truly real commander, not a creature responding to outbattle commander data.

Sorry for offtopic but I felt it neccessary because I was partially misunderstood and I urged to fix it. Still for memory codes credits goes to Bersy.

Edit:
@more-than-two levels map

it would be easy to simulate 8level map. Just divide surface and underground into quaters and control how scrolling etc. Would bw handled. Once all 8 parts would be same size it would be child's math to implement subtergate equivalent (+/- half of map size). Of course plugin for UI issuees won't be trivial but once such things like HD mod are possible....
The 300 approach won't work in multi because areas are mutually exclusive.

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master_learn
master_learn


Legendary Hero
walking to the library
posted July 20, 2012 11:23 PM

Thank you,solitaire345 and JimV,for your answers!
Seems interesting area in mapmaking and field to experiment and improvise,the stable result of which I believe would be something radical for the map-making!
____________
"They made a Heroes V? "-OhforfSake

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master_learn
master_learn


Legendary Hero
walking to the library
posted July 21, 2012 09:38 AM

Quote:

it would be easy to simulate 8level map. Just divide surface and underground into quaters and control how scrolling etc...The 300 approach won't work in multi because areas are mutually exclusive.


Thanks for your answer too,majaczek!

I guess its what Salamandre made in Stargate Atlantis Rising I,where we have planets which are visible when you are on them(only one planet visible at a time).
____________
"They made a Heroes V? "-OhforfSake

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 21, 2012 03:44 PM

I tend to think of WoG maps in terms of single-player RPG's, rather than multi-player.  Salamandre's method from SAR I would work for the 8-level map I was envisioning, but as Majaczek said, for a multi-player map, or even a single-player map which has more than one Hero, on different levels, some control over the scrolling might be desirable.

That is, if one can't simply live with the ability to scroll the view between (some) levels.  I think in practice I would designate the top four levels as "upper realms" (e.g., Heaven, Limbo, Purgatory, Earth) and the bottom four as "nether realms", and accept the fact that in that universe, one can scroll views between upper realms and between nether realms, but not between upper and nether.  Afterall, it is all imaginary anyway.  Imaginary realms can have imaginary rules.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 21, 2012 03:52 PM

Unless the whole exe is worked from scratch, this is very unpractical idea. On 252x252 map I broke into terrible bugs when trying to fill the additional space, so 8 undergrounds will be unplayable. There are limits for every object in editor.

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