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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: Might vs. Magic
Thread: Might vs. Magic
The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
zombie
posted August 31, 2012 01:55 PM bonus applied by Elvin on 05 Sep 2012.

Might vs. Magic


I have been thinking about the balance of Might and Magic in H6, and I noticed that Magic currently has a noticeable edge over Might.
As I see it, the root of the problem is that even though magic Att/Def were introduced, creatures in general are left more vulnerable to magic damage, and yet level 3 spells are so powerful compared to their might counterparts as if spells were still the only way a Magic hero can influence the battle.

With spells like summon Elemental, Time Stasis, Puppet Master, Chain Lightning, meditation or Petrify, Magic heroes are given a set of versatile, powerful tools unavailable to Might classes. In the past, this was counterbalanced by the passive Att/Def bonus of Might heroes, but now not only is that effect lessened (a great percentage of creatures needing magic Att/Def over might), but Might tier 3 abilities are weaker, more situational, more dependent on army strength, and less versatile.

The closest they get to summon spells is Reinforcements, which can only be used once per battle, and preferably in the beginning, while there are still a reasonable amount of creatures to make it effective. Resilience and its Blood counterpart, while passive, trigger only after the army is seriously weakened, and do not provide a big enough bonus to help turn the tide. Toughness's bonus is relatively small even if one goes Tears, and Toughness 3 is negligible when compared to some Tier 3 spells. Intimidation, while in itself an interesting concept, is apparently easily negated,  and even if it isn't, Magic heroes can easily wait out the effect.(This is in my experience, quite a serious problem, affecting multiple Tier 3 might abilities: Even if the bonus's nicer than usual, it doesn't last long enough to have a noticeable impact especially when compared to Tier 2, which is open to Magic)

Direct damage dealing Might 3 abilities(ala Power of the Horde) are conspicuously absent, as are viable Blood abilities. (Notice that the majority of Might abilities are either Neutral or Tears, practically forcing one's hand)

Though I am new to H6, I tried to come up with a few ways the gap between hero classes might be closed. Keep in mind please, that all my examples are at best, wild exaggerations to provide a springboard for your suggestions, nothing more.



-Make all Might abilities' strength dependent not only on reputation, but on Might stats(Att for offensive, Def for defensive) as well, just like spells for Magic.

-Heavily rebalance Tier 3 might: For example, either upgrade Toughness, or make the bonus multiplicative (3-4 % * 3-4  *3-4 percent= 9-16% for tier 2 vs 27%- 64% for tier 3), make Counterstrike 3 last longer, make Reinforcements summon one Core and one Elite for tier 2, one Core, Elite AND one Champion for tier 3, etc.

-Lessen the impact of the Hero's Magic Att/Def, by altering the formula by which the bonus is calculated(Example: one extra magic att point for every 1.5 point of the Hero or something, You get the idea.)

-Nerf tier 3 magic, especially Meditation. (1 turn inaction for extra mana and +20 Spell Power for 4 turns??? IMBA as snow, while not having a Might counterpart!)

-Widen the array of warcries, so that they approach the versatility of spells, while retaining their distinctive Might aspect.(*cough Power of the Horde *cough)  

Sorry for the wall of text, I just want to help salvage H6. Any thoughts?

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Habitus
Habitus

Tavern Dweller
posted August 31, 2012 02:49 PM

Most Might skills are affected by Might stats in exactly the same way Magic stats effect Magic skills. Might/Magic compares to their Def/M.Def  and gets a multiplier between .5 and 2

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted August 31, 2012 03:25 PM
Edited by Elvin at 15:28, 31 Aug 2012.

Active and passive abilities' effectiveness is admitedly not easy to judge as you cannot properly quantify it, you are making a comparison between two different things. But I think that might is generally fine if we also consider the growth of armies. Passive abilities have the benefit of being immediately present regardless of mana, stats or who plays first. You can also have many of them present while you can only use one active ability at the time which will cost mana and have a cooldown.

But this is theoretical stuff, if you want to get down and practical I believe it's more a matter of time and place. Obviously magic will be more useful midgame than lategame while not being all that hot in the very beginning - in a battle that is, at the time what you want magic more is to reduce casualties from creeping. Destructive's importance will obviously wane with time but thankfully the spells got a sweet boost that will keep them useful for a while. Other spells that work in percentages are more useful later than early, because their effect is multiplied as your army grows. Might effects will never wane in usefulness though they may not look like much when there are spells that can take control of a whole stack or freeze it for a matter of turns! But all those might bonuses, they accumulate and while you may lose a single stack(if temporarily), the other passively boosted units can keep on rampaging. A decent number of might units also have multiple or all around attacks, there are more might than magic units and magic units are typically more frail - though I do not overlook the fact that magic units can hurt since magic defense is generally underdeveloped.

I could not agree more with this:

Quote:
-Widen the array of warcries, so that they approach the versatility of spells, while retaining their distinctive Might aspect.(*cough Power of the Horde *cough)


While I like the warfare tree I feel that some of the warcries are lacking and they are an integral part of might heroes. Yes they grow along with your might stats but the basic effect seems pretty weak on some, namely evasive maneuvers. It starts at about 10% effectiveness which makes it next to useless for anyone that has not invested in some levels or tears reputation first. Or warlord's command that is rarely more useful than rush which not only gives extra speed but a whooping good dose of instant initiative. Others like flawless assault, pressed attack and every single one of the tier 3 ones are excellent and I didn't expect to see such abilities to be useable without any mana. But that is why they are inferior to the power of spells, they can be cast for free without any amount of specialization.

Speaking of situational, I consider the spells more situational than might abilities. Puppet can be dispelled or cancelled by attacking your unit with another, you can walk out of acid cloud, mass despair can be countered with burning determination and so on.

So are magic abilities better than might? That depends on the level of your army, your artifacts and level of reputation. In my map you proved that lvl 2 reputation and artifacts at lvl 20 gave more of an edge on spellcasters than might But not necessarily that magic > might. Where toughness may prove marginally good in this setup, it can prove overkill in a larger army which is why I would be hesitant to boost it more. And I fear counterstrike III enough as it is, a first retaliation at full damage from all units can make you really hesitant to attack first.. If its duration increased I would rather that the skill only affected your first retaliation and that the second one came after the attack - and I would probably want the first retaliation damage be reduced. Blood sadly lacks this kind of powerful ability which I hope will be remedied. Blood also lacks a way to preserve or bring back units - unlike tears that has reinforcements. Though I am not sure how much of a boost tears gives to it if at all.. Meditation.. Maybe it is too strong but again it is a matter of army. This deserves some looking into.
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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted August 31, 2012 11:25 PM
Edited by Dave_Jame at 12:17, 02 Sep 2012.

At this point. I think it would be good to give here a game report from my last game. A standard game on the anvorsary map, Based on the princes of VARN scenario.

I played an Inferno mage, later I specialized on the blood path. with fire damage and some life drain.

The game started out OK. I managed to creep without loses for some time, and the choice to chose pathfinder over logistic proved to be very good due to the snow terrain that surrounded my home town.

The first complication came when I met the my first enemy. A Stronghold might hero. We were both approx. the same level (12-13) with approx the same armies. But MY advantage was, that I had Pit fiends while my enemy did not have Cyclopses. With the champion units on my side, a few more other units and my destructive spells I was rather confident to kill him with minimal loses. But just one round of battle showed how wrong I was.

My damage spells did not do much, but they did boost my enemy, and when his 100 panthers attacked my lines.. almost half of 3 of my stacks were dead. And that even before Crushers did anything. There was nothing left to do but to load the game. I could fight the battle again, but with the vision of 3 other enemy players on the map. High loses were not an option.

After a long game of cat and mouse, I managed to get the upper hand on our part of the map, and later to kill him with acceptable loses.

The turning point of the game was not the size of the army but the bypassing of level 15. Now I had access to spells like terror, petrify, Time stasis etc. Only when I had access to crowed control abilities I had a chance against that massive bonus to damage the enemy heroes provided to their armies. Damage spells cloud not make up for this.

Funny part is, that it was not Might or Magic which won the game, but logistic tactics. Somehow it is not fair to fool the AI this way. But they had the same tools and often did the same thing.

The final battle of the game was against a naga Warmaster. A defense in his town. Here even the CC abilities only managed to lower his statistical advantage. I Got the edge in that battle not by using the right spells, but thanks to the Inferno racial, which summoned more units then I originally had in the stacks.

This shows that Magic heroes the way I use them (which may not be the best way) are only useful in the beginning (for spell damage) and in the final battle (For CC spells). But in the Mid game, where there are starting to be more units, then his spells can handle, and at the same time, he does not have level 15 yet, he is much weaker then the Might hero.

Edit note: Slight edit plus Grammar corrections
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Locksley
Locksley


Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
posted September 01, 2012 06:20 PM
Edited by Locksley at 18:23, 01 Sep 2012.

I got the impression that might heroes are a bit stronger. The hero turns are rare and having many passive abilities and some, sometimes very good, war cries and (low level) spells is a more effective use of the ability points than having a lot of powerful spells there is no time to use (and some passive abilities). Even if the top level spells are very strong, the low level spells can help the might hero's army rather well. But perhaps this isn't good enough?

Quote:
As I see it, the root of the problem is that even though magic Att/Def were introduced, creatures in general are left more vulnerable to magic damage, and yet level 3 spells are so powerful compared to their might counterparts as if spells were still the only way a Magic hero can influence the battle.


You could be right in this. Most creatures use might but with a magic hero the magic creatures can become those key creatures that win the battle. That could be balanced but if the might key creatures are magically switched off or controlled there is a problem.

Maybe it also depends on the might hero reputation. Blood heroes want to boost their damage and unleash their charge quickly, giving themselves little defence against the enemy or their own puppeted or frenzied creatures, while tears heroes more easily can play defensively using their actions to make counters while their passive might support wins the battle. But on the other hand a defensive strategy could be more dangerous as it gives the magic hero more turns.

Anyway like Dave Jame wrote much also depends on how long time the game has lasted and what spells are available. For example water magic have a lot of crowd control spells available for all. By casting them a might hero could keep up with a magic hero below level 15 for at least 2-3 turns, which could be enough.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted September 02, 2012 12:05 PM

@ Dave_Jame
Well said After reaching the tier 3 threshold, it is the crowd control abilities that take over as stack size does not dimish their effect, quite the contrary. And I am glad that you mention the importance of logistics strategy - battle tactics aside, heroes very much depends on how you can use the adventure map to your advantage. That is why I hope to see more adventure locations that allow you to interact with your opponent.

Quote:
Maybe it also depends on the might hero reputation. Blood heroes want to boost their damage and unleash their charge quickly, giving themselves little defence against the enemy or their own puppeted or frenzied creatures, while tears heroes more easily can play defensively using their actions to make counters while their passive might support wins the battle. But on the other hand a defensive strategy could be more dangerous as it gives the magic hero more turns.

Another very good point though tears heroes can still play offensively. They may have less effective damage boosters than blood but counterstrike III can make the opponent hesitant to attack and force him into defensive play.



What do you think of meditation? A +20 spellpower bonus roughly translates to 50% magic effectiveness and while you do waste a turn, it more than makes up for it. Do you find it ok? Would it need a nerf on some departments such as duration, effect or mana gain?
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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
zombie
posted September 02, 2012 12:28 PM
Edited by The_Polyglot at 12:29, 02 Sep 2012.

Meditation is a tricky one. I think power gain should be reduced by at least half, but it might (pun intended) be a good idea to actually increase mana gain. Even at high levels, the most it does is pay for itself, which while helpful, may be missing the point.
For example, a +50% Mana bonus coupled with +15% power may be closer to the mark, and be more realistic - meditation aims to access hidden reserves, after all

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted September 02, 2012 01:06 PM bonus applied by Elvin on 05 Sep 2012.
Edited by Dave_Jame at 22:24, 07 Oct 2012.

@ the ropic of On Map tactics
Elvin you thanked me for pointing them out but I think you missunderstood that I think they are badly implemented in this game. Due to the influence of Town conversion and Creature Pool. I spoke about this in a different topic but I will go more into detail here.

The Creature pool causes that you always have easy access to all your units.

While the Town conversion causes that there is no secondary army under your controle on the map.

These features combined result in the fact that 90% of all armies are situated with the main hero. Yes you as a Player do not have to do this, but the AI does it. and to prevent it overunning you it is adventages to have the army by your main hero.

Now how does this influence the game. When each player has only one strong army, both of them tend to walk around each other in a very carefull way not attacking, becaus the result would be large casuelties for both sides, and making them easy targets for other enemies. And this Cat and Cat game, beacuse there is no mouse, can be abused by adding the mouse. A small hero with only few units from the Conflux or dwellings you have captured and were not of your faction.
Whyle this mouse explors the lands, you can position him cloase to an enemy town/fort, and at the same time you can position your CAT hero near a different town/fort creating a double threat to him. The AI is incapable of deviding armies in a functional way, so he will chose one of the Towns/Forts and the other one is yours for taking. And even if he would devide his armies 80%-20% it would only result in you facing the 80% or the 20%, making it an easier battle for you, and in to long run giving you the upper hand. Easiest strategy in the game and the best working to outsmart even stronger AI players on Maps with more then 3 Towns and 2 players. You can do this up to the point where he only has one last town and if there are 3 or more towns under your controle, its a matter of a week or two for you to outnumber him.

In older games, whitout TC you would not do this. not in such a way. you would charge him knowing you both have approx. the same income of units. And after this Epic battle he could surpise you with a second, not as large army from his second town. which you would originaly easylly kill, but now with your main force weakend, you have to face him with your only advantages beeing your more experienced and equipted hero. These are the reasons I dislike the new system and think it may be more user friendly, but is strongly inferior to the older games when it comes to difficulty and game experience.

@Meditation
Whyle at one point I aggry with The_Polyglot that a larger mana bonus and a smaller spellpower boost would be much better for this skill. I think the true problem is, that the Might tree does not have a similar counterpart. Like an ability "Second breath" that would give back charges to all abilities that the player has used and are limited to once per battle like Reinfocements, Taunt etc. With such an ability Might heroes would be IMHO a better chalange to their Magic oponents
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.

We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.

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Miru
Miru


Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
posted September 02, 2012 09:42 PM

I think that passives should have been balanced the way they were when the game shipped. Sure stone skin would give like 30 points of defense while the might passive only gave 1, but you can only use one active per turn. Once you have more than 10 activated abilities you have to ask yourself, what is better, having a skill that I will not use that often because I have better skills, having a situational skill like ground, or getting a small passive bonus? The answer was not clear. Now that passives are so good however I think that getting more that ~10 actives is snowing idiotic. How could you pass up 5 points active all the time for an active that you wont use because you already have 3 that cycle their cooldowns?

Might seem a bit off topic, but I don't have much to add in might vs magic that hasn't already been said.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted September 04, 2012 07:59 PM

No doubt the adventure map aspect has been simplified compared to the previous games.

And I too think that meditation should stick with its basic promise, to boost spellpower nicely and restore a small part of mana only. If you want mana regeneration there is still that other prime ability that regenerates 100 mana over the course of 10 turns.

The 'second breath' sounds an interesting addition but there aren't many might abilities that use charges, just intimidation, reinforcements and mass stand your ground. And I'm not even sure they should have a charge rather than a cooldown..

What do you think of parry and giant slayer? I am thinking they could use a boost.
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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
zombie
posted September 04, 2012 08:37 PM

Well then, Meditation should at least be nerfed(Or a similar might ability should be introduced.)

@Parry, Giant Slayer: They could use a little boost, but be careful not to overbalance. I think base values are sort of OK, since they are passive, but Reputation should boost them a bit more.

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