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| Thread: Good and Evil Terms transfered to Physics |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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idontcare
Known Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 10:44 AM |
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Stevie said:
Homosexuality
Can't be a sin, because apes to it like always.
Human's are mammals, even 99% of the DNA is the same like apes, yet, some stoned priest milleniums ago decided that homosexualism aint correct(probably because it doesn't is for making children)
So decide yourself if your God aint idiotic.
And no im not gay, i dont even like gays(who are more trans) to an extend, but that doesnt change anything, they have the same right to live their lives like any considered 'normal' person has.
Ah, and the obligatory:
God's will=/= "God's word" wrote by humans
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 22, 2013 12:15 PM |
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By homophobic humans too 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 01:18 PM |
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Idontcare, if that reasoning stands, then all we see in nature goes. When new males come to a pride they kill the offsprings, so killing someone else's kids would be good, if we follow that logic. I know about homosexual behavior in nature, but let me tell you this: you cannot find a standard in nature. The nature we see today is a fallen one. Genesis 6:12 makes that quite clear.
The DNA similarity proves little in terms of ontology. You might not know but you're DNA is over 40% similar to bacteria's, 50% similar with a banana's, 60% with insects', 75% with reptiles' and 90% with mammals' --- and that's from Wiki! Whatever you make of that is up to you, but regardless of what it is it would still be just an interpretation OF a fact, not a fact in itself (like evolutionists say that proves common ancestry).
And about God's will not being what Man says it's "God's will", I fully agree with you. That's why you should study the matter thoroughly and see the difference. Just to simplify things, the catholic church is a power hungry organisation that has long forsaken God's will. Don't confuse Christianity with catholicism or with liberal neoprotestantism (like most baptists in the USA). You can easily spot crucial differences by putting their doctrine face to face with the Bible 
A true christian seeks God's authority not the church's.
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idontcare
Known Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 01:57 PM |
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I see my mistake in my arguments after I read those arguments and I think differently now.
I admit i never read the bible, except the super shortcut.
But i still understand, that the bible must be read as a story with an intention, not like a lawer's book.
Thatswhy i even understand that the world aint were build inbetween 7 days, its a translationerror, because 'days' in the original language meant 'aeons', so 7 aeons(a looong time).
I could even believe in my interpretation of the bible and still dont believe to a supernatural transcendent etenity.
*orders bible*
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 02:38 PM |
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Religious scriptures like the Bible should not be read in an attempt to understand the material world.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 22, 2013 05:51 PM |
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idontcare said:
I admit i never read the bible, except the super shortcut.
Well the super shortcut would be to read Romans chapter, it's a good summary. Anyway, I am not religious, there are too many to choose from, so I choose none.
You know, they say there is enough religion in the world to make people hate one another but not enough to make them love...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 07:35 PM |
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Let me say a final word on this "moral is what god's will is" nonsense.
Now, since when do we consider it MORAL, when a very powerful being is declaring their will as the yardstick for everything?
It's called DESPOTISM - and it's the ARBITRARY use of power to subjugate people under their will.
Modern times humans expect a little bit more from a "supreme being", than arbitrarily devlaring stuff "sin" and punishing brutally everyone who sins. Sounds more like a dictator.
A supreme being would act a little bit more enlightened in my opinion.
Practically spoken, if you have no problem with God wanting to kill homosexuals - what is your problem with Hitler killing them in the death camps? Or muslim countries killing them?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 07:43 PM |
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There is also the position that morality is whatever God declares it to be, and what we think doesn't matter. So, if God declares homosexuality to be evil, it's evil, and there's nothing else that can be said about it. Being omnipotent, God could make murder moral. God isn't a 21st century Westerner, and the moral standards He sets could be different from anything humans would arrive at naturally.
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Eccentric Opinion
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 08:04 PM |
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*facepalm; again*
Who cares, Mvass?
God can be all-powerful as much as he want, it's still posssible for us to DISAPPROVE. Just because a being is (all)powerful doesn't mean we have to bow before it. Oh sure, he can MAKE us - but that's what the despots do.
No, Mvass. God may have the power, but that doesn't mean we have to kiss his feet, IF his actions are what WE think despicable. Might does NOT make right, not when it comes to MORAL behaviour.
And killing homosexuals is NOT right. Killing adultresses is NOT right. Killing most everyone iss NOT right. In a moral sense.
Not for me.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 08:10 PM |
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There is another point to remember, though - God is omniscient, so he knows what's moral much better than we do. If we disagree, it is because we are mistaken, perhaps as a result of us being sinful and fallen and our senses and thoughts being clouded by Original Sin. We can disapprove, but it would be wrong for us to do so, because God knows morality much better than we do.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 09:03 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:06, 22 Nov 2013.
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There is absolutely no excuse in not obeying the One which gave you practically everything, starting with existence.
It's true, you don't have to bow to Him, He wants it but He doesn't impose it. It's your choise. He even says what the consequences will be so that your decision is made knowingly But He doesn't have to accept your unjustified rebellion either, so like my biological father He has every reason to kick you out of the house.
He gave you you and all you've got. And all He gets back is disobedience, ignorance and curses. And when He's finally fed up and puts an end to it, He's bad.
JollyJoker said:
Might does NOT make right, not when it comes to MORAL behaviour.
It's not might, it's justice, just like someone's rights are taken from them because of stealing, raping and murdering. Now you might argue about that too, given your own sense of morality, but the truth is that your standard universal nor objective, nor you can impose it on someone else. If you want to argue about good or bad, find a standard that transcends our own sense of morality, something that is objective and not subject to time or space or anything else. If you think something like that doesn't exist, then we can't find common ground. We're only gonna talk about our personal preferences at best, you liking homosexuality and me not, you can't reason a moral code out of that.
@Mvaas: I agree with you on the subject of our moral view being corrupted by sin, and God being omniscient. But it usually takes me a lot of time to witness that to a person without having them rejecting me unreasonably. What is it exactly that you believe?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 22, 2013 09:10 PM |
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Yes, it's completely justified for people who never even heard of Christianity to go hell only because they are not faithful. Such a deep and subtle philosophy. 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 09:21 PM |
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Stevie said:
There is absolutely no excuse in not obeying the One which gave you practically everything, starting with existence.
You are wromg. I didn't ASK him for anything -> I owe him NOTHING. NOTHING WHATSOEVER.
If someone is gifting you with something out of the blue, it does NOT create an obligation for you. Simple, easy.
For the rest - you are just not answering to the point.
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 09:29 PM |
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mvassilev said:
There is another point to remember, though - God is omniscient, so he knows what's moral much better than we do. If we disagree, it is because we are mistaken, perhaps as a result of us being sinful and fallen and our senses and thoughts being clouded by Original Sin. We can disapprove, but it would be wrong for us to do so, because God knows morality much better than we do.
Mvass, moral is SUBJECTIVE. Whether God is omniscient or not, it doesn't matter crap, because it has nothing to do with knowledge or being mistaken. God cannot be superior because it's a main statement that we have free will, ergo we can decide for ourselves what we consider moral or not, and god has to accept that. He can punish us for differing with him, but we can STILL evaluate that as despotism.
It's not about God. If God is all-powerful he can make us believe everything he wants AND that's we do believe it out of our own volition.
But obviously he doesn't do that - or if he does he likes a couple of people contradicting him.
Now, if I CAN doubt him - if he allows that - it makes no sense to summarily execute me for it.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 09:33 PM |
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Belief in a "something" transcended that explains ontology is not subject to Christian beliefs, it's a self-evident truth. That's why you have so many religions in the world, and most of all in antiquity. And it's not like they didn't knew about God. Oh yea they did, they just refused Him. Just look at this verses:
"18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.
32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
Entire history of humanity since creation. Covers a lot on homosexuality and lesbianism too. There's absolutely no excuse, just like it says.
You'll have to make your case one day, in front of Him and all the universe. Get ready. And when that day comes, remember that a certain christian named Stevie told you that it'll happen. And that he urged you to AT LEAST take a better look at it. See for yourself that you can repent and find salvation in Lord Jesus Christ's name.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 09:41 PM |
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JJ:
No, it does have to do with knowledge, namely that our knowledge of morality (by which I mean that which we can discover by ourselves) is flawed at best, and only God has perfect knowledge of what's moral. If you think morality is subjective, you're wrong, because it contradicts what God says, and when the two are in conflict, God is right and you are wrong, because God is omniscient and you aren't.
We have free will to do whatever we want, but that doesn't mean that whatever we want is true. You are free to say that vaccines cause autism, for example, but in doing so you aren't determining the truth, but contradicting it.
It's true that God could make people believe whatever He wants and preserve our free will (and the seeming contradiction can be explained by him being omnipotent and not subject to logic), but He doesn't. We don't know why, but he must have a good reason, we just have to have faith. And if you defy Him, it may make no sense to you that He would punish you for it, but that doesn't matter - what matters is whether it makes sense to Him, not to you.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 09:42 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
You are wromg. I didn't ASK him for anything -> I owe him NOTHING. NOTHING WHATSOEVER.
If someone is gifting you with something out of the blue, it does NOT create an obligation for you. Simple, easy.
Everything you've got comes ultimately from God, existence being the most important one (in my opinion). Then bestowing love, care and grace on you, to the point that He Himself suffered on the cross to pay your wrongdoings.
And I have a hard time believing you don't like existence, love and happiness, which also come from Him. You can be stubborn and say otherwise, but you'll just lie yourself, and that won't do you any good
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 22, 2013 09:53 PM |
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As usual, you are unable to understand the argument and reply to what's already in your head (or you deliberately ignore logic to preach). He doesnt say he doesnt like existence, he says, since he didnt ask for it and agreed to a contract for it, there is no obligation that comes with it.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted November 22, 2013 10:43 PM |
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mvassilev said:
JJ:
No ...
Sorry. You are just claiming a lot of bollocks.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 10:45 PM |
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I am in awe of your excellent argument. I didn't realize that what I was saying was bollocks. I am ashamed to have been so mistaken. You, JJ, have shown me the light. Never again will I stray from the true path.
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Eccentric Opinion
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