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| Thread: Do you like democracy? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · NEXT» |
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 14, 2014 07:02 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 03:42, 15 Apr 2014.
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Do you like democracy?
Lately, I've come to the conclusion that I'm morally opposed to democracy. Essentially, I believe happiness happens when people are free to fulfill their goals. A system which is all about restricting that freedom, through the arbitrary lawmaking of the public and the interests of the political class, will end up making a lot of people unhappy about a lot of things. I think an alternative to democracy would be a system based on voluntary contract. Instead of being forcerully regulated by the ideas of other people, you are free to join societies built upon a set of fundamental and unamendable ideas you agree with. Islamists could live in a islamist society, socialists in a socialist society, libertarians in a libertarian society etc. The only prerequisites would be freedom of contract and freedom of movement, since being a member of these societies must be voluntary.
What do you think about democracy, and if you're opposed to it, what alternative do you propose?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 14, 2014 07:10 PM |
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Yes, democracy, being majority rule, is bad, because rule of any kind is bad and something to be minimized. Majority rule is bad for the same reasons that monarchy and dictatorship are bad, with the masses (rather than one man) being your master. However, I don't think abolition of government altogether would maximize freedom in a stable and lasting way, so while rule is to be minimized, I don't think it can be eliminated altogether. To the extent that rule must exist, it is better for it to be managed democratically. But democracy is not a good itself, and when the amount of rule can be reduced, it should be, even if it would mean less democracy.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 14, 2014 07:36 PM |
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Edited by Aron at 19:38, 14 Apr 2014.
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I'm gonna be the crazy guy here and try and defend Tyranny of the majority as a general principle and not as satire of democracy Reductio ad absurdum.
In a multipolar, internationalist world of decent equality a multitude of nations of unique characteristics governed through real active participatory democracy could create a rainbow of blossoming cultures instead of this gray mass engulfing everything today. These societies would be true democracies and little thought would be given to those completely different from the majority in terms of accommodating or even allowing their way of life. Hopefully (as in all countries today) people would help strangers but actual life and rules would be adopted to fit the majority there, unless that majority was facinated by multiculturalism or enjoyed individiualism.
If you were born in a type of country that really didn't suite you then you would be free to move around and hopefully in this multitude of nations and cultures you'd find something that did fit you.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 14, 2014 07:41 PM |
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Why would the local democratic institutions have legitimate authority over local territory? Why should someone have to leave to be free?
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Eccentric Opinion
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 14, 2014 07:44 PM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 14, 2014 07:49 PM |
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Majority rule is not the core idea here, it is a result of the core idea which is everybody having an equal say in things. So, yes, I approve the basic idea.. Of course, as time passed, democracies also evolved, today when we say democracy, we usually refer to the modern, liberal democracies that is constituted on fundamental rights that can not be taken away by majority. Although they are not flawless, these are the societies with better life standards. Also, sociologically, it is unheard of any country to suddenly go into an ultra liberal state, democracy is a necessary step towards anything claiming to be broader than it.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 14, 2014 07:52 PM |
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If democracy means having an equal say, I support democracy - if no one has any say over others and their property, everyone has an equal say.Aron said:
Why not?
Where does the legitimacy of their authority come from?
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Eccentric Opinion
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 14, 2014 07:55 PM |
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Well historically from the homogenous tribe that lived there and formed that country.
In practise from strength of arms, numbers and treatise with other such societies.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 14, 2014 07:57 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:58, 14 Apr 2014.
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@edit: this was a reply to the unedited version of the post, it doesnt make much sense now.
Unfortunately, there are always things to be done or decided together this way or the other (should we build a bride or a ferry port?) and budgets that are of interest to everybody. So, that is not executable.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 14, 2014 08:12 PM |
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Edited by Aron at 20:19, 14 Apr 2014.
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artu said:
Majority rule is not the core idea here, it is a result of the core idea which is everybody having an equal say in things. So, yes, I approve the basic idea.. Of course, as time passed, democracies also evolved, today when we say democracy, we usually refer to the modern, liberal democracies that is constituted on fundamental rights that can not be taken away by majority. Although they are not flawless, these are the societies with better life standards. Also, sociologically, it is unheard of any country to suddenly go into an ultra liberal state, democracy is a necessary step towards anything claiming to be broader than it.
What's an ultra liberal state?
How about Peasants Republic of Ditmarschen?
Ukraines Free Territory at the Russian Civil War?
Catalonian collectives during the republican era?
Pirate Utopias in the carribean?
Besides, sociologically or not we haven't really progressed into anything new since the formation of these variations of liberal and socialists democracies or republics unless you count Switzerland as something special.
Or the Islamic Republican system in Iran or the fascist governments pre-WW2 if that's your thing.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted April 14, 2014 08:18 PM |
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Quote:
Where does the legitimacy of their authority come from?
God. Legitimate authority, and power, is devolved from the almighty. I don't believe in democracy, because in a democracy it is claimed that the legitimate government is chosen by those who are not only fallible, but also ill-informed and ill equipped to make choices as to who should be the leadership. Not only that, these same people are putting the government under constant scrutiny, not only did the public admit to a dumbass decision they are showing disloyalty to those whom they've voted for, i.e the voters can be likened to prostitutes. Democracy was an interesting experiment, nothing more.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 14, 2014 08:22 PM |
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All Hail Tsar-Ivov.
The rule through divinity is interesting.
A noble king with richess far exceeding any common man and thus with the interest of the nation his only devotion can work. Follow Machievelli and Voltaire and you will be fine.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 14, 2014 08:25 PM |
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Edited by seraphim at 20:32, 14 Apr 2014.
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Yes, democracy is flawed. Once humanity has invented its deus ex machina, we will have a perfect dictator to lead us into the stars.
Also, technocracy is better than any form of goverment, untill our AI overlord is created.
God is the creation of the human race for a perfect benevolent dictator. We will achieve this being by creating AIs, if it is possible to create AIs.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 14, 2014 08:28 PM |
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Can an AI be ordained by god?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 14, 2014 08:30 PM |
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Aron said:
In practise from strength of arms, numbers and treatise with other such societies.
That's where they get their power, not their legitimacy. The two are not the same, unless you think that might makes right.
artu, yes, and when things must unavoidably be collectively decided, democracy is a decent way to do it, although it depends on the situation. But to the extent that it's possible, collective decisions should be avoided.
Tsar, and for those of us who don't believe in God?
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Eccentric Opinion
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 14, 2014 08:34 PM |
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Yes it is the same. Rule through force becoming norm transforms into legitimacy.
All rights are agreements between men. Forced or not.
Bla bla bla  Had this discussion to many times, sorry if I don't seem too serious.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 14, 2014 08:36 PM |
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So if I'm strong and I beat up my neighbor often enough, it becomes legitimate?
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Eccentric Opinion
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 14, 2014 08:38 PM |
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Edited by Aron at 20:39, 14 Apr 2014.
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Sure. Although I wonder why you'd beat people up. Might get beaten up yourself 
What you just expressed in so few words was the system of slavery which was seen as perfectly legitimate. Human *excuses* were created (racism; we are superior, religious; god gave us the right, economical and sociological; some people are meant to slave and others to rule).
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 14, 2014 08:38 PM |
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mvassilev said:
So if I'm strong and I beat up my neighbor often enough, it becomes legitimate?
Of course. Unless there are other stronger people than you that can challenge you.
Might makes right isnt something that is a fairytale. It works during everyday life everytime.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 14, 2014 08:39 PM |
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...That's bizarre. Then what does "right" even mean, if the strongest is permitted to do what he wants?Quote:
What you just expressed in so few words was the system of slavery which was seen as perfectly legitimate.
Something being seen as legitimate doesn't mean it's actually legitimate. People thought slavery was okay. They were wrong.
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Eccentric Opinion
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