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| Thread: Do you like democracy? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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fred79
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posted April 16, 2014 11:01 AM |
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lol, ok, artu. you'll be one of the first to get eaten, if the **** ever really hits the fan where you live. lol, you'll be like, "let's be friends and work together". and they'll be like, "dinner's gonna be easy tonight." 
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artu
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posted April 16, 2014 11:09 AM |
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In 1999, there was a big earthquake in the gulf region of Turkey, official numbers are 17 thousand people dead but some say it's much more. There were zones that was actually without clean water or a shelter to sleep under, put aside electricity. And if there were 10 scavengers robbing off the remains from the rubbles, there were 100 helping out the wounded, going under rubbles with a torch etc etc.
So, I'll be fine here. How did things go during Katrina?
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fred79
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posted April 16, 2014 11:10 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 11:19, 16 Apr 2014.
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LOL, touche, artu. LOOOLLLLLL.... 
1,000 dark hilarity points to team artu. 
thanks, artu. that brightened my day considerably. not that it was glum to begin with. you know, this is one of the few times that you've nailed me to the wall like a bug with a glorious comeback, artu. i greatly approve.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 16, 2014 11:18 AM |
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Dude, that's SMALL ISLES of disaster within the safer net of a working infrastructure - I can't believe you come up with such small stuff.
Should the internet fail - the economic structure of this world would simply COLLAPSE: stock markets, ownerships, electronic money ... nada.
Power failure on a large scale would obviously do the same - only more so. Big population centres - the 10+ million cities in the world would go down fast and dissolve in utter chaos: no cooling facilities -> no food -> mass starving.
The world has CHANGED since WW II, and changed massively; and it will continue to change, and we will become more dependant on energy and machines with every day. We lose the skills necessary to survive in such a world, because we don't need them anymore, which is of course no problem, because we have to trust in our ability to keep things working for us.
We just need to draw the right conclusions.
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artu
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posted April 16, 2014 11:21 AM |
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I'm not suggesting people will just nod it off, I'm suggesting it wont be as catastrophic as you put. Economical data and things like documents of ownership all have actual paperwork back-up.
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fred79
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posted April 16, 2014 11:26 AM |
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artu said:
I'm not suggesting people will just nod it off, I'm suggesting it wont be as catastrophic as you put. Economical data and things like documents of ownership all have actual paperwork back-up.
lol, yeah. and they're certainly organized if they are. artu, you're plain silly. technology rules everything nowadays.
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artu
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posted April 16, 2014 11:32 AM |
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Not really. There are enough agricultural stock and live-stock in major population areas to avoid any sort of instant mass-starving. And we relying on technology in our everday life does not mean that reliance is at such an irreversible point that 30 days without it would mean end of civilization.
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fred79
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posted April 16, 2014 11:35 AM |
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i didn't say 30 days, artu. you should read my post about catastrophic events again. 
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artu
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posted April 16, 2014 11:42 AM |
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Edited by artu at 11:44, 16 Apr 2014.
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With greater scales of time you are giving people a chance to work on solutions and stand up again, anyway. And you said inner cities would turn into bloodbath in a week. besides, the original quote I refer to is JJ'S
Quote:
And now add the fact that we'll drown in UTTER chaos now, should the internet fail or get sabotaged or whatever, not to mention the fact that a simple POWER FAILURE over an extended time period would do the same, and the conclusion is that we ARE ALREADY governed by machines.
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fred79
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posted April 16, 2014 11:53 AM |
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inner city bloodbath in a week, in a nationwide power outage scenario. old-school radio's would still run on batteries. the knowledge of a nationwide power outage would certainly work a toll on people. it wouldn't take long for the generators to run out of gas, for the unprepared. how many generators, that you know of, are in an inner-city? all of the gas would be used for them. things would grind to a halt. with no gas for cars in a month or so, that would mean no cops patrolling. hell, they'd be busy as it is, they'd be having to deputize people. the gun shops would be cleared out within a week of a nationwide power outage. and then what? can you guess? you really think people will be holding hands and singing kumbaya?
btw, artu, 1999 was a long time ago; compared to today's technological advancements, and dependencies... 
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 16, 2014 11:58 AM |
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Homogenous societies or societies with otherwise strong social bonds will probably be strengthened by a large tragedy as long as there is some hope of survival in the general sense. Everything else is obviously the apocalypse and defunct.
It's in communities where there is little consideration to your neighbour or large urban cities in general where you possibly don't even know who lives around you where there might be mass panic.
At least that's what I think.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 16, 2014 12:01 PM |
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artu said:
Quote:
And now add the fact that we'll drown in UTTER chaos now, should the internet fail or get sabotaged or whatever, not to mention the fact that a simple POWER FAILURE over an extended time period would do the same, and the conclusion is that we ARE ALREADY governed by machines.
I don't think this part is true at all. If the internet or world's electronic databanks were to vanish tomorrow, there would be a lot of issues and whining, sure, but nothing catastrophic. Governments still rely (also) on paperwork and within a time period of 5 to 10 years we can adapt back to the conditions of 1950 (in terms of reliance on computers).
The end of fossil-fuels however, that will bring some real change, I naturally don't know how it will go exactly but some enormous crisis will rise for sure.
There will be no "end of fossil fuels" type of scenario. We have alot of coal left and probably endless reserves of continously re-created crappy coal/brown coal/mush etc.
People will just take trains or hydrogen busses more. Energy will be more conserved. Nothing will happen.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 16, 2014 12:05 PM |
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That's what I said. The big cities would be hell. Small rural communities would survive. If it was at all possible to survive.
How big is the percentage of people living in small rural communities? In 10 years from now on? In 20? In 50?
And it's beside the point anyway, since Democracy is dealing with MAJORITIES. If a MAJORITY of people is HEAVILY relying on the flawless workings of machine-operated and -controlled mechanisms - so heavily, in fact, that their life depends on it -, would it be so wrong to put even MORE trust in machines, and more than in humans? After all, government is about RELIABILITY as well; dependability. It's never the machines screwing us over, it's always the humans that do, aren't they?
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artu
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posted April 16, 2014 12:10 PM |
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There would be crisis not apocalyptic mass-murders. Anyway, the machines don't screw us because they make no decisions based on their free will, it's not like they are being honest to us either. They are simply operating OUR preferences.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 16, 2014 12:11 PM |
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But why would there be a mass catastrophe?
Unless someone starts nuking people (like your AI) then there won't.
All that's needed is the overthrow of the capitalist system in favour of statism of some sort and then massive change towards agricultural production away from consumer goods. (That is if something, anything, were to happen).
We can produce stuff inside of greenhouses. It's expensive but we won't be producing as many ipods so it's fine. Let's say a meteor hits the ocean and creates a massive cooldown of temperature and blocks the sun more.
All you do is create massive greenhouses made out of glass and burn residual plant material, use nuclear energy or coal energy. Building these things is very easy and with modern plants that mature much faster than old ones food production could be easily restored in most of the western world at least. Africa is screwed, but africa is always screwed.
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artu
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posted April 16, 2014 12:30 PM |
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Edited by artu at 12:31, 16 Apr 2014.
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Quote:
There will be no "end of fossil fuels" type of scenario. We have alot of coal left and probably endless reserves of continously re-created crappy coal/brown coal/mush etc.
It's been quite a while but I remember reading something like the amount of fossil fuel we consume in a year takes X million years to be re-created. As I've said, it's been quite a while, so I have to google some fact checking on this myself.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 16, 2014 12:41 PM |
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Fossil fuel isn't "one thing".
Natural gas, oil and black coal takes hundreds of thousands to millions of years to form. Brown coal/lignite can form rapidly.
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artu
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posted April 16, 2014 12:46 PM |
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Okay, then let me rephrase. When natural gas, oil and black coal reserves are dry, or near dry, it will have huge effects on economy and our means of energy production and transportation technologies. It will have drastic effects.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 16, 2014 01:14 PM |
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Edited by Aron at 13:25, 16 Apr 2014.
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It won't though.
Current coal reserves will last some 150 years. In some European countries for 200-300 years while other countries obviously have other more suitable sources for fuel. Even if lignite coal can't keep up peat/mush might, at least in countries like Finland.
You can make oil from coal and you can make biofuel in general.
Eletricity powered cars are and hydrogen powered city transport is become alot more common.
There's nothing to worry about at all. In Germany during WW2 the nation managed to sustain itself despite bombardment and loss of all oil fields through syntethic production of oil and alternative fuel sources such as wood-gas (gas created from burning wood). That was 70 years ago.
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artu
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posted April 16, 2014 01:23 PM |
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Then what's all the fuss about? There are like hundreds of articles presenting it as an issue. Besides, 200-300 years is not so long in scale of civilizations. Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting Mad Max like the others, I'm only predicting major change.
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