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| Thread: Heroes Universe - Dragon Gods |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT» |
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2014 10:01 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 10:31, 25 May 2014.
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[DISCUSSION THREAD]
Please read the masterthread before posting. Link
In the beginning there was Magic and the Void. Magic formed itself into the Cosmic Egg. Inside the Egg the Dragon twins Asha and Urgash, Sister and Brother, Order and Chaos, were nurtured with Primordial Magic until they hatched. Spawned from Magic to exist amidst the Void, the Primordial Dragons were the first with the potential to harness its unlimited power. While the brother Urgash basked in Magic’s infinite possibilities, dreaming of its potential for unlimited freedom, the sister Asha decided to give it shape and purpose.
So Asha saw there were Darkness, Light, Earth, Fire, Water and Air and created a Dragon God for each: Malassa daughter of Darkness, Elrath son of Light, Sylanna daughter of Earth, Arkath son of Fire, Shalassa daughter of Water and Ylath son of Air. Then she created the Elder Races, the Faceless of Darkness, the Angels of Light, the Elves of Earth, the Dwarves of Fire, the Nagas of Water, and the Humans of Air, each being patronized by the Dragon God of their respective element.
SO LET'S MEET THESE DRAGON GODS:
Asha The Dragon of Order
She is the creator goddess, the mother of Time and Space, the triple-faced figure of birth, life and death.
She brought the world into existence, and then hatched the six Elemental dragons to rule over it.
She controls the fates of all mortal creatures – she spins forth their destiny at birth, measures it through their life, and cuts it at their death.
Asha is carefully neutral. She does not show favor to good men or evil men, Dwarves, Elves or Orcs. All the universe is her creation.
However, she is diametrically opposed to the Chaos principle embodied by her insane twin brother Urgash and his demented children, the Demons.
After the Wars of Creation, Asha retired to a safe refuge within the moon, there to sleep, heal and dream.
The Moon is in fact the cocoon she wove around herself.
It is an image of the Cosmic Egg, a means to measure time, the final resting place of the Dragons and the gate to the Netherworld (where all souls come from and where they all go back after death). Asha is not worshipped directly. She is above such things.
But she is served by the White Weavers, the Blind Brothers, and the Silent Sisters who throughout the world, help the women give birth, perform auguries and supervise funeral rites (thus working as midwives, seers and oracles, embalmers and undertakers).
Urgash the Dragon of Chaos
Urgash is “raw untamed potential”, primordial Chaos in its inexhaustible energy and infinite variety of forms
He is ravenous and insatiable, the “dragon-snake that eats its own tail”.
He is the father of wanton destruction, of frantic mutation, of rampant madness.
He is also the progenitor of the Demons.
Urgash is utterly unpredictable. His “logic” defies mortal reason. He can save one day and kill the next, laugh and cry within a matter of seconds, be alternatively cruel and comforting...
He has been long banished to slumber at Sheogh, Ashan’s core, but in this prison-world, the Demons linger, and still strive to carry out his desires.
Malassa the Dragon of Darkness
Thee Dragon of Darkness is the Faceless Foe, the Slithering Shadow with a hundred faces and a thousand whispers.
Darkness is a fickle and dangerous master.
Darkness may seem meaningless and formless, but she knows. She has always been here and there, watching from close or afar, drinking the words and screams of the mortal races.
In her abyssal womb lie all the forgotten memories and the buried secrets of the past.
Malassa is mostly worshipped by madmen and doomsayers, fearless spies and assassins.
Malassa holds sway over the shadowy and mysterious Faceless but they were almost brought to extinction during the Elder Wars.
In the Historical Age, she made a sinister pact with the Dark Elves (Dungeon faction ).
Elrath the Dragon of Light
The Dragon of Light is worshipped as the Sun God and the patron of (legitimate) Authority, Truth, Honor and Justice.
His servants seek to illuminate dark places, conquer evil, and celebrate individual valor and heroism.
Elrath leads the radiant and immortal Angels, but they were almost exterminated during the Elder Wars.
In the Historical Age, Elrath became the patron deity of the Holy Empire (Haven faction).
Elrath is the most resplendent of the Elemental Dragons. His features are all about nobility and authority.
His elegant scales are of the purest gold, but instead of merely reflecting the light, they literally shine from within. His wings are not scaly, but feathery, like his children the Angels.
Elrath has no “Dragon breath”, but when his righteous wrath is stirred, his eyes burst into a streak of blinding light.
Arkath the Dragon of Fire
The Dragon of Fire is rash, hasty, and ill-tempered. Selfish and hot-headed, ferocious in combat, he is ruled by his passions and impulses.
He is mostly worshipped by the thrillseekers, those who see life as a constant struggle and burn it at both ends, but also by those who, like the blacksmiths, shed their sweat and blood as offering to the fire.
Arkath gathers the Dwarves (Fortress faction), grim masters of forge and fire.
Arkath is the largest of the Elemental Dragons. His features are all about physical power, ferocity and passion. His thick scales are like lava, searing hot and glowing redgold.
His breath is a stream of flames that incinerates everything it engulfs.
Arkath is wingless and favours a bipedal position (standing on its rear legs to dominate its opponents).
Shalassa the Dragon of Water
The Dragon of Water is humble, quiet and secretive. She is the serene mystic, wisest of the Dragons, and her knowledge is only second to her sister Malassa, the Dragon of Shadow, for her watery realm is ripe with forgotten lore and treasure.
In all things, she values diplomacy, versatility and adaptability. Yet, if she decides to act, she is swift and indomitable. You cannot hope to win when you are fighting the waves…
Shalassa is worshipped by the sailors, fishermen and pirates, but also by the prophets, hermits and wisemen. She populated her dominion with the reptilian Nagas (Sanctuary faction), who move freely both in water and on the land.
Shalassa is the most graceful of the Elemental Dragons. Her features are all about serenity and wisdom. Her scales are a harmonious mix of jade-green and turquoiseblue.
She is wingless and she has fins instead of legs. In fact, she looks like a sea-serpent. Her breath can be a tidal wave, a geyser of scalding steam, or a bone-chilling blizzard.
Sylanna the Dragon of Earth
The Dragon of Earth is the stolid, slow, even-tempered one among the Elemental Dragons.
Peaceful and cautious, Earth acts only after long deliberation and study.
She often serves as a peacemaker among her siblings.
She is Nature’s warden, being very fond of the plants, animals and living rocks that grow “on her back”, and the only way to wake her wrath is to destroy or defile her sacred groves and stone circles.
Sylanna is worshipped by druids, rangers, hunters, farmers and herders, but also by wood and stone carvers.
Sylanna is beloved of the Elves (Sylvan faction), silent stewards of her forests.
Ylath the Dragon of Air
Young and impetuous, the Dragon of Air is the seeker of hazardous knowledge, of crafts that are handed down by the shortlived humans from father to child, of myriad facts about the world which he views from on high.
Like the wind, he travels everywhere to collect all the sights and sounds he can pick on his way. Curious and intuitive, he is quick to sense the meaning of all things, but he is also restless and frivolous.
Ylath never asked to be worshipped. His only commandment is that his followers should explore, learn, and enjoy all things in life, but mostly, that they should do as they wish, as long as they respect and honour the world that the Dragons created (this point being the crucial line drawn between Ylath and Urgash).
As his chosen people, Ylath selected the Humans, for they are youngest race, as he is the youngest dragon, and as curious and restless as he is.
But in the Holy Empire, his cult has been supplanted by that of his elder brother Elrath, the Dragon of Light.
However, Ylath is still very popular among the nomad barbarian tribes that roam the vast territories stretching beyond the Empire, and in the Free Cities.
He is also honoured by the travellers, bards, and spies, by the mummers, courtiers, rakes and thieves, and even by some Wizards (for his extensive arcane knowledge but also his tendency to make even the simpler facts appear “hermetic”).
Topic Question:
I - What do you think about the idea of Dragon Gods as presented with Ashan?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2014 10:15 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 13:12, 25 May 2014.
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Masterpost
I - I personally think that the idea in itself is good. It is just the way it was presented that made me not like it.
What I mean by that is:
First. It is way to easily conveyed to the reader. The way I see it you leave no room for exploration. The narrator is omniscient. You might as well read the Ashan Universe on the official site, no need to play the game at all. A better approach would've been progressive unfolding of truths. That way it's more mysterious and the reader would be excited to play the game to find out more about lore.
Second. There are MAJOR inconsistencies! The most "blinding" case is that of Elrath. There are three things which you have to keep in mind when you talk about him. That he was created by Asha as the Dragon God of Light. That he as Sar-Elam, a human wizard, ascended to dragonhood. And that he is the older brother of Ylath the Dragon of Air. --- It is impossible for all of them to be true at the same time. You cannot have a human wizard created before Ylath in whose blood the elder race of Angels was baptized.
Update: Please disregard my second point. It was a mistake from my part. Thanks watcher 
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted May 25, 2014 01:01 PM |
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Sar-Elam became the 7th dragon not Elrath, he was just as powerful as the 6 elemental dragons, hence the 7th dragon name.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted May 25, 2014 01:04 PM |
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Nice to see all of this info at one place 
I just hate that they decided to change Sylath's name to Ylath.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2014 01:11 PM |
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I always thought Sar-Elam transcended to dragonhood to become Elrath. Fail. I can't explain how I made such a grave mistake.
But even so, he became the seventh dragon of what? What's his element?
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 25, 2014 01:27 PM |
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Sar-Elam doesn't have an element. He is the only god that wasn't created by Asha directly but gained this status later on - hence he has no element to rule.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted May 25, 2014 01:28 PM |
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Well, the most reasonable explanation would be order, although it is never mentioned; he like all men at that time was a servant of Asha and her children and through intense study of the arcane arts he reached the conscience of Asha, thus aquiring incredible power which he used to turn the tides of the first demon war, creating the prison sheogh which now the demons call home.
He was part of the ancient Shantiri empire, and when this was destroyed by the elder wars, he and his followers headed east founding the silver cities, while most humans went to the center of Ashan, where Brian united the tribes and created the Falcon Empire.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2014 02:02 PM |
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Minion said:
Sar-Elam doesn't have an element. He is the only god that wasn't created by Asha directly but gained this status later on - hence he has no element to rule.
Doesn't the lore make it quite clear that Dragons are the embodiment of magic? What kind of Magic did Sar-Elam had? What element was his power of imprisoning the whole demon kin?
@watcher: Is "order" an element? Wasn't that prime? Order is just Asha's ideology, not her power.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 25, 2014 02:27 PM |
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Dragons probably yes, but Sar-Elam was a wizard. The only wizard ever to reach the conscience of Asha. I have no idea what kind his magic was but Asha taught him secrets on the nature of matter and spirit, so I am guessing Primordial magic?
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted May 25, 2014 07:01 PM |
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I personally don't like this "dragon worship", everyone is 100% certain they exist and it leaves no room for interpretations and hypothesizes. While I agree with the presence of "divine servants" like angels and demons in Heroes universe, I find the "all powerful dragons who everyone knows and if you don't worship one of them you're screwed" not very creative. A more mysterious Creator/Master of the universe would have been better IMHO, someone without a physical appearance and who is much more mysterious. It would leave much more room for different religions or if you want them to call them interpretations of divinity which are different from culture to culture and leave enough room for atheism, religious crusades and a plethora of forms of worship.
Plus it has been horribly executed and looks like the work of someone who was throwing spirituality twists in favor of "yay dragons"
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 25, 2014 07:05 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
I personally don't like this "dragon worship", everyone is 100% certain they exist and it leaves no room for interpretations and hypothesizes.
THIS
Just like the 9 faction limit, it constricts the universe and the gameplay simply too much. Ashan over-religion focus makes me puke
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2014 07:25 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
I personally don't like this "dragon worship", everyone is 100% certain they exist and it leaves no room for interpretations and hypothesizes.
Orcs?
But I get your point and I agree. It's an overused plot, really. WoW has it, SC has it, Disciples has it and Heroes too.
You know, as I said, I'm not completely opposed to the idea. In fact I think it's actually good. It's just that it's all served on a silver platter, nothing to discover. What if Ashan were to be introduced with a great eclipse war and everyone wanted to know the source of the demon invasion, then the dragons coming as a revelation? Rather than starting with the dragons first?
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted May 25, 2014 07:31 PM |
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Stevie said:
Orcs?
Aren't the orcs seen as savages by the rest of the factions? 
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 25, 2014 07:39 PM |
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Why is anyone screwed for not worshiping a certain god, it is not like they are punished in any way. Academy/Wizards don't worship anyone and are still one of the strongest or most technologically advanced nations in Ashan. That correlates interestingly with atheism or secularism. Just like demons being sort of individualists and anarchists.
Overall the world of Ashan is a success, dragon gods included. Writing could be improved of course... and I also dislike the fact that Asha has a physical form (she is supposedly resting inside the moon). Also more plotting by the gods that mortals wouldn't understand would be great.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted May 25, 2014 07:45 PM |
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Quote:
Why is anyone screwed for not worshiping a certain god, it is not like they are punished in any way. Academy/Wizards don't worship anyone and are still one of the strongest or most technologically advanced nations in Ashan. That correlates interestingly with atheism or secularism. Just like demons being sort of individualists and anarchists.
Atheism=disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. You can't be atheist if there is 100% certainty that the universe is ruled by a God or a pantheon of gods. Wizards acknowledge the supremacy of the dragons even if they don't worship them.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted May 25, 2014 08:01 PM |
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I said order and not primordial since the latter includes both order and chaos, and all six elements can be order alligned or chaos alligned, since for example demons use fire magic.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2014 08:04 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 20:05, 25 May 2014.
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Why ya so opposed to worship Lizzy. 
Isn't it natural to worship a transcendent being?
Look, something better than worship would be more journeys like Sar-Elams. Wouldn't everyone want to ascend to dragonhood now that it's know it's totally possible?
Speaking of which:
Wouldn't it be totally cool if he'd return from the Void like a twisted existence seeking control and worship?! Manipulating powers never seen before?? Daym!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 25, 2014 08:05 PM |
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Sar Elam did not become an actual dragon. Even his dragon skull that you find in Dark Messiah was fashioned out of shadowsteel from his.. tomb I think? He was just a wizard who managed to come in contact with Asha's consciousness, which gave him incredible power. He sacrificed himself to seal the demons in the planet's core and that seal only weakens during a lunar eclipse presumably because.. the sun blocks out the moon, where Asha has buried herself to recuperate. The trailers have so far depicted the eclipse as a sun eclipse and not a lunar eclipse but this is actually wrong.
And if you think this is ridiculously complicated.. It is.
I kind of like the clash between order and chaos and their 'emanations' of defined, orderly elements versus the twisted, raw, undefined chaos. But there are two issues with that:
1) Ashan is too religious-based, to the point of being annoying. (And I'm not even an atheist!) Haven for instance is too much about the ideals of truth and justice and all too hating about everything that is not bathed in light. Say hello to the Spanish inquisition! The necromancers are goddamn buddhists and protectors of the order instead of bwahaha, let's raise moar skeleton armies. There is too much hollier-than-thou in there. Blargh.
2) This directly affects the gameplay and art. Where gameplay is concerned, we have 6 elemental schools and prime that by lore should be divided into order and chaos. If we assign even 3 spells per tier and we keep 5 tiers of magic, that's 15x7=105 spells. That's A LOT to design, implement and balance! And if we stick to 3 tiers as in H6 then it is not nearly good enough. As far as art goes, units are over-decorated with religious symbols and such. Not only is it pointless - if not off-putting - but you cannot even see those details unless you zoom closely onto the units.
And a third one, not very important but it kind of bugs me. The dragon Gods do not make personal appearances nor do they directly influence Ashan. They are like house decoration, they are there, you can see them but that's about it. I would prefer if they sent ominous dreams, gave a little push for events to come or otherwise changed the flow of events when you thought that everything was set in stone. Otherwise what's all the dragon God fuss about? All appearances so far have been underwhelming. Wulfstan finds Arkath sitting there and convinces him to help the dwarves, whereas he has been lazying about for some decades since they lost his favour. Whatever. Elrath blasts Laszlo with an implosion because Freyda got pissed that they killed her father. Whatever. And the whole story behind H6, where Sarah went to Sheogh to heal Urgash so that he could gather more strength and cause an eclipse sooner.. That's silly. I am certain that most people who played the campaigns did not understand what exactly happened or why, there was no awesome cutscene, there was nothing at all. It didn't even make sense.. Wasted potential right there.
Proposals:
Find a way to properly incorporate the elemental religion into heroes gameplay. 7 elemental schools means 7 different magic skills. Perhaps make a sorcery skill that incorporates them all but implement faction restrictions? And reduce the tiers to 4 so that we have a more reasonable amount of spells to design? Maybe reduce the schools by implementing magic concepts instead, like in H4 or H5?
Incorporate the dragon Gods into the storyline somehow and tone down the faction close-mindedness where their dragon God is concerned.
Add dragon God shrines that give quests to increase your favour with each element and maybe learn unique spells. Or possibly be joined by elementals of said element. Of course there could also be punishment for failing your patron dragon God, that could be a lot of fun.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 25, 2014 08:13 PM |
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Stevie said:
Wouldn't it be totally cool if he'd return from the Void like a twisted existence seeking control and worship?! Manipulating powers never seen before?? Daym!
The void does not twist, it consumes until there is nothing left. But the throne of renewal can give people immense power at the price of their humanity and personality. Gazal, a wizard sat upon the throne and became the herald of the void with the only goal to bring the void to all existence and stuff.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 25, 2014 08:15 PM |
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4 tiers of Magic School Spells seems a reasonable number. 5 it's too much.
But knowning Ubisoft, they will make 5 tiers with 2 spells/tier so we get back the stupid 50/50 of Heroes V. Yeah
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